whats the smallest amount of syrian rue needed to have it work effectively as an maoi ? does body weight effect the dose size ? would simply grinding them to a powder and capping that work just as well as those lemon juice teas I read about ? would it even make a difference in the long run, if the rest of the evenings entertainment was vaporized ?

A gram and a half has proven to have no overt effect on its own but makes DMT active for about a two hour trip. Eating whole seed powder will work just as well as extract, but there will be a lot more body load.

body load ? syrian rue has previously envoked quite violent bouts of projectile vomiting, so just double checking things here.

With 1.5g of Syrian rue my trip is about 2 hours in length with +- half an hour of complete hyperspace time. My bodyweight is about 78Kg. In the beginning [size=9:1d96c4ebbd](the universe was created, this made a lot people very angry and is widely regarded as a bad move, ohh wait, different board. )[/size:1d96c4ebbd] I was taking a full glass of rue tea and that made me vomit like well, purging EVERYTHING out. Later on I evapped the tea to about 50ml, this way it is less horrible for me to drink the tea and no vomit after drinking it anymore. I guess you can evap to almost nothing to quickly cap it and take it. On a later time I'll try about 1g of rue, I'm almost sure this will also work but with a shorter time-band.

Your primary reference here should be Jonathan Ott's [i:af627012b6]Ayahuasca Analogs[/i:af627012b6] in which he details his bio assays on achieving an optimal dose for syrian rue in combination with both dmt-hcl and various dmt-containing ayauasca analogs. He settled on about 3g of rue. There are other reports (e.g. the phalaris faq and Gracie&Zarkov if memory serves...) that corroborate Ott in that more than approx. 3g doesn't appear to effect the oral efficacy of dmt. Both Ott (Ayahuasca Analogues) and Shulgin (TiHKAL) sensibly recommend preparing a diluted hot lemon-juice extract of the ground seeds, since, as Ott has pointed out, a record of safe use of an extract of something in no way indicates safety for the plant material itself, since extraction effects a separation. Ott specifically referred to mhrb and syrian rue in this context, and mentions that rue contains uterotonic quinazoline alkaloids in addition to B-carbolines, which are mostly left behind when extracted. cf. the last paragraph of this valuable resource entitled "Pharmahuasca: On Phenethylamines and Potentiation": http://www.maps.org/news...ters/v06n3/06332ott.html Here is a summary of Ott's recommend extraction technique: approx. 3 grams of seed are thoroughly ground, briefly boiled in a 1/3 lemon juice 2/3 water mixture, and filtered through a coffee filter. The solid remains are extracted a second time as above and the resulting extract is added to the first. This may then be reduced to provide approximately 100-150 ml of extract and drunk. wishing safe journeys -z

This seems like a good place to archieve this information (and some people might be too lazy to click on the link ), so here's the last paragraph of the above mentioned article by Ott: [quote:85eb7589c3="Jonathan Ott"]In conclusion, I wish to add my own warning to psychonauts and "basement shamans" who experiment with pharmahuasca and anahuasca. It has come to my attention that some swallow capsules of Syrian rue seeds rather than make aqueous infusions, or swallow juice of Phalaris or root bark of Mimosa tenuiflora (Willd.) Poir., all to avoid tasting the bitter medicine. However, making aqueous infusions effects a crude separation, leaving behind non-water-soluble constituents, potentially toxic. Existence of traditional use of aqueous infusions of M. tenuiflora roots, as vinho da jurema, does not constitute proof that it is safe to swallow the roots or their bark themselves, and one colleague experienced toxicity from so ingesting capsules of ground M. tenuiflora root bark as anahuasca, whereas a prior experiment with an aqueous infusion of the same root bark provoked no such toxicity. This toxicity may have been due to the chalcones kukulkanins A and B found in bark of M. tenuiflora, and which are lipid-soluble,(21) and would not appreciably be extracted into water. Similarly, apart from containing high amounts of B-carboline alkaloids, Syrian rue seeds also contain significant levels of the uterotonic quinazoline alkaloids vasicine (peganine) and vasicinone, accounting for ethnomedicinal use of these seeds as an abortifacient.(5,17,22) Since these alkaloids are much less soluble in water than are the B-carbolines, once again making an aqueous infusion will effect a separation, leaving the bulk of the quinazoline alkaloids behind in the seed residue, amounting to lower toxicity, especially significant for women, particularly if they are pregnant. Clearly, in their zeal to avoid tasting their bitter medicine, anahuascanauts are playing with fire, exposing themselves to unnecessary risks, ingesting preparations lacking some traditional track-record for human safety. All to avoid tasting the bitter draught but some regard withstanding this bitterness as a rite of passage -- as James Joyce said,(23) "no roses without thorns" but Joyce was referring to women, not to drugs![/quote:85eb7589c3]

[quote:aee09e96e7="zhah"]approx. 3 grams of seed are thoroughly ground, briefly boiled in a 1/3 lemon juice 2/3 water mixture, and filtered through a coffee filter. The solid remains are extracted a second time as above and the resulting extract is added to the first. This may then be reduced to provide approximately 100-150 ml of extract and drunk. [/quote:aee09e96e7] twas exactly that which befouled one, a winters night not long ago. worship of the porcelain goddess did not end till the twilight of the morn. uke:

Well then you should extract it. Quantum Brujo posted a great procedure a while back on some thread.

thanks, its nice to know that some people are helpful and friendly. its hard to find answers at times, when you're not allowed to speak like friends. QB, would you happen to know the thread ?

Hello Mr. Antics, [quote:e19280bc69="Salvia_Antics"]cant you just smoke the rue?[/quote:e19280bc69] see this recent thread: http://www.dmt-nexus.me/...BB2/viewtopic.php?p=2293 as I wrote in that thread, Gracie&Zarkov were smoking syrian rue extract back in '85! See this document: http://dmt-nexus.me/doc/syrian_rue_info1.pdf -z

[quote:a8b45c4bfd="blue halo"]thanks, its nice to know that some people are helpful and friendly. its hard to find answers at times, when you're not allowed to speak like friends.[/quote:a8b45c4bfd] hey halo, to what are you referring exactly? Not that mathematics jib in the other thread? ... (pm me if you wish...) -z

[quote:e790d1da18="blue halo"]twas exactly that which befouled one, a winters night not long ago. worship of the porcelain goddess did not end till the twilight of the morn. uke:[/quote:e790d1da18] well, you might be sensitive to it. Read Shulgin's report in TiHKAL about how he felt after consuming an ounce (=28g!) of it! I recommend the lemon juice extract with a lower dose. Do it like Ott did: start low and build up, keeping good notes, to find your optimum. -z

I have a tale to tell - I'm such a newbie, I still want to tell you all about it ! This old thread seemed like the best place to add it - for the sake of vicariously sharing this kind of experience, and as a warning. I would suggest that one does not do this ! - or try it ONLY after appropriately modifying the recipe !~ 1) On an empty stomch after eating just friut and bread for the day, eat 3.5 g of ground up syrian rue seeds in a glass of water. Three glasses of water to chase it down. (.. mistake #1 to eat whole seeds !) 2) An hour later eat 50 mg dmt-freebase (pure white crystal), then in 10 minutes later eat another 100 mg. (folded in 2" square tissue paper, mositened and then swallowed with 1 cup water). ... mistake #2 was to think 150 mg dmt was an average dose for skinny, 150 Lb, 5'9" me... The seed will make you puke I assumed ... so I was 'prepared' ... I had buckets on all floors, jugs of water in every room, and a safe 'nest' prepared in my loft room, where a bed was made with 2 hot water bottles warming it. It was not a 'mistake' to NOT have a sitter, but close to that... 25 minutes after the dmt went down, my notes say " visions started" ... And it started off very well ... and I stopped taking notes. But it was 2:00 am ... and I was feeling 'tired' .. .. this added a strange effect later ( 4:00 am) when I'd 'wake up' after dosing off, still tripping hard... mistake #3 was to try this pharmahuasca recipe during the time the body would have a sleep cycle - this made it very 'hypnagogoic' - as though I was in between sleeping and awake, since I tried to not succumb to the 'tiredness' . I had to lie down at 20 minutes after eating the 150 mg dmt-freebase. So I crawled into my 'nest', warmed by the hot water bottles. But at the beginning I was amazed ! I never knew open eyed visuals like that ! Everything in the 'real' world had Mayan-Egyptian 'script' scrolling on it ! I couldn't 'get it off' things ... It was disorienting at times, but that was later when the nausea hit ... The first visuals were like I knew from vapouized dmt - warm, playfull, decorative. Textiles and coils of light, gnomes and happy skeletons in fancy 'neon' clothes, loving serpent coils of light ... The dose was high at 150 mg, so it progressed much further ! As the effects came on I discovered what could be called "Imagination Soup" - any object, animal, thing, concept, or thought for which I had a 'memory" could be 'spliced' or 'cooked' together ... It was awesomely bizzare, funny at times, and unstoppable ! Imagination soup contained every 'thing' I know, and I could do anything with them now. Try to imagine the most obtuse, whacky combinations of 'things' ... and they would appear ... Crocdile-tail-soccer-ball-teacup ... or washing-machine-treeroot-eyeballs ... swarmed around me all fused in a new 'thing', or as separate things I 'knew" ... This was definately a high dose of dmt ... I got up realizing I had to purge, but I don't know what time it was ... walking like a careful drunk, I made it to the bathroom. I had been 'prepared' for this purge, but not the hard-tripping ! My body felt chilled, even though I had 2 hot water bottles in bed with me. Every object I walked by was covered in 'glyphs' and luminescent digital circuitry. No need for details, but it was good to rolf and rolf ... The 3.5 g of seeds HAD TO get out of me ! My body was commanding me to puke, so I drank water to help 'wash' the gritty little bits of seed out. There were 3 or 4 waves of nausea while I was still getting higher, and I had little bits of nutty-flavoured seeds in my teeth all the while ! Synesthesia went wild ! Or I had unfiltered my senses and memory. For example - I needed to rinse my mouth with water, and as soon as my tongue was wet, I tasted layers and layers of sweet flavours in the water !~ Water was so 'good' I stuck my tongue out under the tap just to 'gorge' on the 'flavours' of the water running off it ! It was maybe 100's or 1000's of sweet flavours ! While worshipping my toilet bowl, I had drawn a hot bath to soak in. It was 3:30 am, and I could lie in the warm water between puke-bouts. It was AMAZING to get into a warm tub of water ! I was able to function enough to do all this - vomit, drink ... plug tub, draw bath, light candle .. get in tub and get out of tub to puke. But a sitter would have helped here - one who wouldn't have minded my puking nakedness ! ! The tub of warm water made all boundaries disappear. The effect of warm water on my body was perfectly soothing, and over the course of the next 3 hours (!) I did slip into 'sleep' a few times, coming to again with a sudden jolt ! I kept adding more hot water to keep the warmth in the tub, and after 1 hour of soaking the puking subsided (I drank 4 or 5 cups of water to induce more vomits) I knew I had to ride it through - I found my 'reality checking' could get way back to external reality, no matter how distorted it appeared. I would speak aloud to confirm I was still there, in a tub... I was with eyes closed most of the time, getting sleepy. I had thoughts about 'neurotoxicity' - I had a sense of 'short-circuited' neurons, and all filters coming off. 1000 flavours from a wet tongue ! or there were a million warm, liquid blankets enfolding me as my body adjusts to the bath's temperature ! I would get chills when I stepped out to worship the toilet bowl, but orgasmic warmth when I stepped back in the tub. But knew that once my MAO enzymes were back on line, I'd be coming down. This was finally the case at what must have been 2.5 hours after eating the 150 mg dmt - I was over the peak .. pheeew ! The window above the tub was open so until 7:20 am I listened to the night- auditory stimulii were also 1000 times amplified ! The ocean is 2 blocks away from my house, and I listened to a storm rage with big winds. A train went by and it sounded like a alien-jet-train ... I did fall asleep a few times, and it was strange to realize I was tripping while awake and asleep - the boundaries were not clear - a very hypnogogic 3 hour soak in the tub !! But I had no hang over! I just slept until 12:00 noon, and felt fine. I ate breakfast, and then had a perfectly 'normal' day, trying to remember what I had done. It seems that all MAO's are 'back', and I ate a huge turkey dinner ... So let me review - Syrian Rue seed should NOT be eaten ! Next time I will try a lemon juice extract, boiled down. I read that they even contain "abortifacient" alkaloids ! ... certainly 'puke-i-facient' ones ! And eating 150 mg dmt-freebase is a HIGH oral dose ! I knew that amount was circulating in my blood until the MAO enzymes were back, so I really wanted to purge the Syrian Rue seeds, as that was the only way to shorten and depotentiate the ride... I would not repeat this experiment during the late night when the body needs to sleep - dmt and sleep are associated but it was weird realizing that "oh, I was tripping in my sleep" ..! .. and now I'm tripping while awake ... and the boundary was elusive. I would speak aloud to ensure I was infact awake ... A crazy manin the tub ! The trip would have been great without the waves of nausea - I went beyond the 'Imagination Soup' phase, but sleepiness and nausea were confounding the experience. Ego dissolution happened a few times in the tub where I was able to relax, but I found myself 'coming back' to deal with a purge, or by suddenly 'waking up' ... maybe I fell asleep longer than I realize..? Anyhow ... I will repeat this, but in addition to my hard-learned lessons with Rue seed, does anyone have any advice..? Similar tales to tell? Perhaps a perfected Rue-recipe..? I have perused the links here in this thread - I think I'll stick with 100 < 120 mg dmt and make a rue exract next time.

Nice report El Ka Bong, It reminded me of my first aya attempt, I took 6 grams of grinded seeds After about 15 minutes I purged out about everything that was inside me plus a lot more. I couldn't even take the DMT that was waiting for me anymore, I was too far gone, completely into a rue trip. The trip was a good and solid one btw, no visuals but a lot of answers were put into my brain.

Thanks for that impressive report Elka. My friend plan to try Syrian Rue soon and your experience reinforce his conviction to extract Rue. However he plan to smoke DMT by low amounts instead of ingesting it.

heh 'low' ... and 'small' amounts, good ideas @! like the title of this thread says. And - [b:1bce967cf2]6 grams[/b:1bce967cf2] of seeds ! holy sheep ! did you remember to plug your nose..?!

[quote:b78fbf4d6e="El Ka Bong"]And - [b:b78fbf4d6e]6 grams[/b:b78fbf4d6e] of seeds ! holy sheep ! did you remember to plug your nose..?![/quote:b78fbf4d6e] All was included in the "big expansion" I do remember though it was quite interesting to see how much force was included with this "big expansion". Let's call it a Stalin purge...

Ok ... Let me update this thread.. ! I have discovered (confirmed) a brilliant way to make the whole dmt experience better (inhaled) ! You can 'dial-down' the MAO acivity in your body by drinking a low-dose extract of Syrian Rue seed ! Just drink a syrian Rue seed extract in lemon juice one hour before smoking dmt. With this method, there's NO puking or even feel a hint of nausea, and you can drink a little more to increase the effect on the dmt you follow with ! To make the no-puke seed extract take: -3.5 g Syrian Rue seed ground to dust ( one full table spoon). -50 ml lemon juice (1 fresh squeezed, large lemon) -150 ml deionized water Mix these in a tall and skinny beer glass (380 ml vol usually). This makes 200 ml at a pH of 2.1, and the acidity makes all the MAOI alkaloids water soluble. Leave the seed to soak at room temp for 12 hours. Stir as often as possible. Then filter to make a clear amber-yellow liquid loaded with MAOI ! The MAOI is in the clear liquid, the puke-i-facient alkaloids are in the gunk. Filtering may take another 12 hours to drip through a filter paper, or putting the tall glass in the fridge will settle out the crud - just use a turkey baster to draw off CLEAR liquid, throw out the gunk after filtering. This makes three 67 ml MAOI 'doses' one can drink - Tasting like lemony astringent nuts. Just one dose is effective and you can feel it within 60 minutes - but this I felt was not a full MAOI dose. I put 67 ml in 250 ml of grape and orange juice, and chugged it all on an empty stomach. It tasted just like citrusy juice. The Syrian Rue's (harmala..?) alkaloids are relaxing and 'loosen' you up. I drank one shot and went for a 30 minute walk at night, feeling it come on subtly. Drinking all three over 2 hours did not make any nausea come on. I felt introspective and kind of 'hypnogogic', but l was VERY well relaxed and already 'loosened' for the rocket boosters to be turned on! But the best part is how smoked dmt is affected by having one's MAO enzymes 'turned down' by a simple glass of juice ! This is brilliant ! 15 mg dmt inhaled were not very strongly amplified by just 67 ml of seed extract, but the combination was noticeable. With the Rue in you, the pre-launch anxiety is much reduced - you know you are already 'dosed' on something, and it really makes things feel like all 'moorings' are undone. This 15 mg was 'stronger' than without 67ml of Rue extract, but in this combo' I was at baseline in 20 minutes. All combinations were not tried, but 200 ml extract + 30 mg worked wonders ! Although I'm still a noob, I have never had such a fine experience with just 30 mg of dmt as what happened after drinking all 200 ml of extract (ie 3.5 g seed). ! With one easy, slow toke the onset was way different - a brighter veil, that was 'easier' to find my way 'to' and through. Definately the Rue extract's MAOI's made the 'layers' of the typical dmt experience become pre-loosened - the rush was gentler ! It was easier to give into. And, this experience was so good I was not moved to repeat - totally quenched. And the whole trip lasted 40 minutes, trailing off with the seeds still noticeably adding a 'buzz' as I fell alseep. With 200ml of this extract, it was so much easier to just slip through the veil, and then ...! Whoa ! or maybe with the MAOI, I was finally able to REMEMBER ! It was an obvious threshold as I entered their space ! The 'buzz' of the initial passing-through-the-veil-phase became a slower, 'danceable' sine-wave pulse, and the multi-facteted veil became one colour... a blueish backdrop to a huge space... Then, so many babies/beings rushed up to me !... With the MAOI from the seed extract I actually have a memory of wtf was going on ! It was more vivid than ever before, and it rarely happens like this ! And once I 'saw them see me', they all danced again ! There was a metronome-like yes-no-yes-no pulse that seemed like an over-tone. The "yes-no-yes-no" was also an "on-off-on-off..." and as I have seen before, it was ALSO the dance of the ninyo-elves ! Most of the 'babies' that looked at me wore robes or had covered bodies, and went by doing hoola-humping happy to show me that that was ALL that mattered ... ! Some didn't look at me ... but I have never encountered such a 'populated' space before - I am so impressed by the rue-seed extract !. At this point I actually spoke to my sitter that "we are all just babies' .. ! The hoola-humping was full of sexual inuendo, but the metronomic-pulse ('metrognomic'!) was also like a digital on-off wavering between a white cordlike helix that draped around the edges of my 'sight'. It was like wrought-neonwhite sine waves. The pulse went like a circulating windsheild wiper, drawing a sine-wave, up and down - I don't know what these were ..?! I had the feeling that sexuality, polarity, duality, ... are all the same thing - an illusion we are forced to 'live with' or exist within, for some critically important reason. But consciousness can escape this condition... Maybe the 'duality' of our everyday perception was this on-off/yes-no pulse, and under dmt it becomes suspended momentarily. That 'pulse' is what makes matter animated, alive...? Or how about this - dmt suspends that pulse, or resonates with that pulse to 'suspend' time and gravty, and then suddenly all that 'other' reality comes rushing in..!? ...? I really can't say what I was looking at - It was God's playground, or just the monkey-bars in God's playground that I had 'awoken' under ! And as I did this, all of god's ninyos playing around there rushed over to greet me ! I could hardly do more than look around, never mind get up and 'play' ... but that was what I have to do the next time ! But I could also call it the totality of why we are here - God's game, and we are some fantastically animated 'pieces' being played, and playing, but sleep walking through most of it ! I then noticed that I had slipped back into the 'second' level - remembering this threshold again ! .. Then I had the familiar re-entry visions of psychedelic textures as I fell back down, through the stratosphere, with those pleasant 'tremors' and body-yawning feelings. At 40 minutes I was not at baseline yet - the seeds were buzzing on their own (I was sleepier, and loaded with dreamy, half-sleep imagery) Anyhow, even with just 2 tries combining these two magic ingredients, I will probably always use Syrian Rue extract before smoking dmt ! Just make it two days before, and store in the fridge. The combination is excellent !~

Whaoh , great ! I read somewhere that what makes puking are tannins and that tannins can be catched by proteins like white egg (albumine). So maybe adding some white egg in the liquid, heat it and pull only the liquid part would work ? [quote:f703a9cfd1]I had the feeling that sexuality, polarity, duality, ... are all the same thing - an illusion we are forced to 'live with' or exist within, for some critically important reason. But consciousness can escape this condition... [/quote:f703a9cfd1] Can't resist to comment a bit here. My friend had also this kind of 'revelation' with smoked DMT but it was clear that we are not FORCED to the duality but that we CHOOSED to live in.

'I read somewhere that what makes puking are tannins and that tannins can be catched by proteins like white egg (albumine). So maybe adding some white egg in the liquid, heat it and pull only the liquid part would work ?' Plain unflavored gelatin is also supposed to catch and trap tannins and can then be easily removed from solution by filtration. M.V.