We have a few threads on permaculture here, it’s an absolutely fascinating philosophy that I strongly feel is the best possible way to a sustainable future. I will refer you to those threads and google for more information on what the philosophy of permaculture is all about. I want specifically to focus on one of the techniques of permaculture known as forest gardening or commonly called food foresting. In a nutshell it’s mimicking the design of nature and growing your own custom forest eco-system.

The basic idea behind forest gardening is that a forest is made up of layers and it’s the interaction between and diversity within these layers that creates a healthy living ecosystem. Typically it is viewed as a system of seven layers. I’ll allow Wikipedia to explain:

What Wikipedia doesn’t explain is that usually these “productive plants” are intermixed with nitrogen fixing plants that are allowed to die off or cut back and dropped on the ground to decay and feed the productive crops. What is particularly interesting about these unproductive nitrogen fixers for us Nexians is that they just happen to be all the plants that we are particularly interested in.

Let’s take this step by step and try to create an image of how this all comes together and what it looks like when it’s fully up and running.

So to start with we need some land, it doesn’t really matter where the land is we can create a forest anywhere outside the arctic, obviously a (sub)tropical environment offers more diverse options than temperate and desert climates but that’s the beauty of this technique, you can literally Green the Desert!

I will skip the whole process of designing an entire self-managing system that is permaculture and get straight to the food forest creation. The very first step is of course to start building the soil.

On top of the soil layer we need some groundcover, a crop that fixes nitrogen and will help feed the soil with organic matter. This will get the soil in shape for us to start planting. Some particular species of interest to us that happen to serve this purpose are the Delosperma sp. and some of the Desmodium sp. many of which are listed in the literature as containing tryptamines.

Once we have a nice groundcover layer we can chop it down and drop it on the ground to decay and turn into soil. Then we can start planting the forest out from the top down.

So we will start with our canopy trees, these are gonna be the large fruit and nut trees. They should be planted relatively sparsely with lots of space in between; they will be about 10% of the system at this point.

In between the canopy trees we will plant the lower-tree layer trees. About 10% of these will be sparsely scattered dwarf fruit and nut trees that can survive in the shade of the canopy. The other 90% are going to be nitrogen fixing legume type trees. This is particularly good for us because these are our Mimosa sp. Acacia sp. Anadenanthera sp. Vilca sp. Mucuna sp. and so on; basically all the really interesting tryptamine and beta-carboline containing species.

In between the lower-tree layer trees we plant the bushes and shrubs. Again about 10% of these are going to be productive things like berries and herbs. The other 90% are again the nitrogen fixing legumes, here you have things like Elaeagnus sp., some Delosperma sp., Desmanthus sp., Petalostylis sp, etc. basically more interesting tryptamine and beta-carboline containing species. You would also put your Psychotria sp. and Diplopterys sp. Tabernaemontana sp. etc... here.

The herbaceous layer is where we grow our herbs and vegetables; this includes teas, medicines, and smoking/changa herbs. This is also local wildflowers and insect attractors. You could include your clumping grasses such as Phalaris, Phragmites, Digitaria, and Lespedeza here as well.

We already talked about some groundcovers. In the later stages you will focus on more perennial and food items such as strawberries, melons, (sweet)potatoes, and squashes.

We also have the Rhizosphere where we have our root veggies and medicinal herbs. This is taro, ginger, garlic, osha, onions and the like. Many people also place the fungi at this level; the nice thing about creating a temperate forest environment like this is it creates perfect conditions for all sorts of mushrooms and other fungi’s which really are the most important part of the forest.

Last but not least we have the climbers. This is our Ipomoea, Passiflora, and Banisteriopsis as well as peas, beans and the like.

Put it all together and you have a thriving ecosystem.

In a matter of a few years with a minimal amount of upkeep, you will have a self-sufficient, permanent, established forest filled with food and medicine.

And that is just winning plain and simple.

Hi dreamer042, thanks for putting this up, i'm sure it will be useful for some.

Personally i don't like the permaculture "culture", because it's a bundle of theories that makes the act of planting and horticulture in general look like architecture or something alike. And that i believe, raises a barrier for some folks to be interested in green cause some may think it has to involve learning to be able to mix-and-match the right plants.. I have my little garden that has everything from veggies to trees, and never attended it thru permaculture ideas, but in the end it looks the same.. you know what i mean?

I find permaculture most useful for hard enviroments, where you don't have a large interval for error, for example, making green roof-tops or where the soil is poor in nutrients.

But for the general, if you have some squaremeters of regular soil, i'm fond of the ideology "just plant everything" - goes straight to the case

Great idea. In practice many flaws will be realized later.
The ground covers listed aren't going to be overly happy with much shade, let alone full dense shade.
Where I live (and most areas where it rains, ever) melons, strawberries, and sweet potatoes would have a leaf blight long before the first harvest.

Lespedeza isn't a grass either, nor small. The species I grew got 8-9ft tall.
Same with Eleagnus, which is a pretty determined weedy species here.... Try removing one of the 15t tall thorn laden bushes without a backhoe, you'll know what I mean :-)




Few years means what? 20-40? or does this figure on pre-established trees? Minimal amount of upkeep might be 30hours a week as well, which sounds good, but it is certainly required work... not something that could be put off.


Best way to approach this manner of farming is to get the trees planted, and be trial testing things that work and things that do not. Every climate makes a new adventure. I know when I moved to my current location, many of my favorite Tomato plants didn't stand a chance... finding many of the old school farmers (harder and harder to do) and finding many of the local home grown seed to seed type cultivars give you a heck of a jumpstart. When I first started here, my arrogance of "Well, they just don't know how to grow this type of vegetable" resulted in many failed crops.


Another thought that matters greatly in my locale.... surface water. A pond on the property makes life infinitely easier.

Thanks for some real world input on this idea RW. Admittedly this is surely quite oversimplified, I mainly posted it because I was excited about the way everything connects and how we can incorporate the plants we are interested in growing as part of a full self-sufficient ecosystem.

There are certainly better ground covers, but the main work of the ground cover is to prepare the soil in the first few months then die off to feed the larger plants so it being blotted out by shade and covered in organic matter is exactly the idea here, in most forests the canopy shades out the smaller plants and ground covers. These are more about establishing the system in the short term rather than being long-term parts of it, at least that's how I understood it.

Perhaps I should have listed Lespedeza in shrubs, I always thought it was more like a tall grass like Arundo donax, but I don't have personal experience with it. It and the Eleagnus shouldn't ever need to be removed since they are integrated into the system. Eventually the Lespedeza should get shaded out and die off for the most part and the Eleagnus are part of the system for the long term.

I recall in one of the Geoff Lawton videos they show a food forest that was planted and maintained for 2 years, then left to it's own devices for about 7 years. It was an established ecosystem growing strong still when they returned and he said it would take 1-2 people about a days work to get it fully maintained again. This was put together by professionals with a lot of experience so may not be as realistic a number for a beginner, but a self-sufficient ecosystem can absolutely be established in under 5 years easily.This would be using already fairly well established long and medium term trees and shrubs and seeding the smaller short term plants. The maintenance work is simply chop and drop everything but your productive plants and throw some extra ground cover seed around in the first few years.

Again, I'm probably oversimplifying, but the logic behind it is pretty solid and spending a few days watching videos on youtube of different peoples systems, it looks like it's pretty effective in practice as well. I certainly do intend to start establishing a system like this and I will definitely share my progress here.

Possible, but that would require the one thing I never had.... adequate funding. For most of us 'real people' that would be doing this, a house and the land economically taxes us.

Eleagnus around here makes a great shrub for a hedge... it also doubles as a security system. Most intruders that could breach the hedge would most likely bleed to death before they got to the house.

I present you a 3 year old Eleagnus currently eating a Pine tree in my back yard.




While on the subject, let us not forget the ultimate in survival food, the Jerusalem artichoke Helianthus tuberosus. We actually had peelings grow into a compost pile. Pretty impervious to eradication.... it also promotes massive flatulence... need to develop a gas harvesting machine and we could keep the lights on forever.

Food foresting is awesome, and yet so intuitive, almost common sense.

For a truly sustainable food forest, imo at least 50% of the plants should be native plants that have adapted to the climate of the area where growing, making it that much more sustainable. Also i recall geoff lawton saying something like 60% or so plants in a food forest should be there to build the soil and give it life, such as legumes. Also another key to a sustainable food forest would be diversity.

Imo, a great groundcover would be a nitrogen fixing legume thats native to the area and sends out runners and grows profusely, the runners being key. Also as for say the chop and drop to build the soil, it would be best imo, if chopping say a majority of the plant, to wait until it has gone to seed, for obvious reasons.

Geoff lawton knows his stuff and has quite a bit of information out on the web.
Another great teacher, quite possibly better than geoff, would be a natural forest. Also a great place to look for native plants and how/where they grow and how they interact with the other plants in the system.

Permaculture= the future

Another layer not so many people thing about is the soil itself. Mostly for mycelium and it producing mushrooms, which is very likely in a healthy food forest

Heres some pics of a native running/climbing legume that i found today in a forest that is thriving. Looks perfect for a nitrogen fixing food forest ground cover. I will be harvesting seeds as soon as i can and will be attemping to id asap.

One of the pics contains the legume climbing a tree, adding another layer of nitrogen fixation and taking advantage of a niche (i think thats the right word)

Sorry if my phone flips the photos

Edit: well i was going to post a few more pics, but cant seem to post the pics atm?

Edit #2: Still cant post the other pics, but i believe that it is some species of Strophostyles, however i cant be too certain until it flowers

Edit #3: i dont think anymore of the pictures of this is getting posted
However, ive found one of geoff lawtons videos on establishing a food forest that is the best video ive seen from him! Its 1.5 hours and extremely informative. It is great and well worth the time to watch it.
Heres the link!