Do we have control over our lives?

We certainly can influence our lives, i can move my left arm wherever I want, and I have complete control.

But do I have complete control, Is it still considered complete concious control, if I unconsciously use my left arm to scratch my nose?

Is the idea of 'control' simply a illusion created by our own awareness? our own consciousness?

Does an insect have control? Does a cat? Do animals have control over their lives?

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Is it all by chance? absolutely random?

I can choose who I wish to talk to, who to share my life experience with. But I can't CHOOSE to actually meet that person in the first place.

Is it by chance? or is it the essence of fate? What brings us together?


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I ask these questions, because often when I ask someone if they would ever consume psychoactive drugs, If the answer is No, it is because that person does not want to lose the perceived 'control' they have while in an unaltered mind-state.

But, is that 'control' as much of an illusion as reality itself?

That is the question.

i tend to lean towards that position.

i have stopped feeling in control of my life for a while now (similar to how the passenger in a rollercoaster with a steering wheel, might fool himself into thinking the car is going in and out of his control), and there is no noticeable difference between me, and other people i observe who feel totally in control (and totally anxious and and scared when they feel things are out of their control).

so unless i could be subconsciously controlling things while feeling i am not, i feel very strongly that it is an illusion. and a potentially detrimental one at that.

I think the desire to feel in control is probably more responsible for the damage we do to this planet than any other impulse we have. Control of self, control of others and control of nature. Probably it is a byproduct of being self aware enough to know that we die.

The metaphor is old, but appropriate: be like the willow that flexes in the wind but does not break. We are so afraid of being blown away that we become rigid, and when a really powerful wind comes along we shatter. It happens to individuals and it happens to societies.

i am clueless and just surfing the wave for fun

a proper cessation of complete control if ever there was.

it sure does for the government

I have issues with control for sure. It causes a great many fears in me yet all of it is completely opposite of how I feel. It's like a big contradiction of self and mind. I struggle with it sometimes but I often go back and forth, being ok with not having control over anything or being scared that ill lose control.

It's evident when I'm stoned, which I don't do very often. I feel like I can't control my brain like when I'm sober. It causes me to function like an idiot sometimes. Causes me to make mistakes and bit be able to let go and enjoy.

If control isn't an illusion it is still definitely something we should rid ourselves of.

Is 'control' an illusion that grants us safety and security?

In a lot of respects... (more than people would like to think)... yes

This really struck a chord with me.

I feel that anxiety and a desire to be in control go hand in hand. First there is anxiety, a worry about something being wrong or potentially damaging. Then the response comes in the form of control. As in, 'I will take control of the situation and prevent the potential problems I am anxious about from happening'. Unfortunately this is a charade. Ultimately there is no control to be had, only the illusion of control as others have mentioned here.

The reality is there is no amount of preparation and no amount of control that can cover ALL the bases, so to speak. No matter how much you plan, and plan, and think, and plan, and worry and prepare - anything and everything can change in an instant. And then you're left there perplexed (or 'shattered' like the stiff willow tree) and wondering how it could have failed. So then misery rears its ugly head again.

Then more anxiety... more desire to control... more loss of control... more anxiety etc. etc.

So in response to the OP I feel that yes, control is an illusion that grants us safety and security but only temporarily.

The solution seems to be in relinquishing any ideas of control ('bending' like the willow tree) and then watching your anxiety begin to dissolve as you discover that life is actually pretty pleasant and whatever happens, well... it will happen.

[alt+24]
what he said

To be honest, i think we do have a sense of control over the big picture. Funny that it is mentioned in OP how people who don't want to try psychedelics are often afraid to lose control. I am myself, afraid more times than i am not.

A couple of days ago a dear friend was telling me about her beliefs in life. She said she is of the "floaty hippie type" and explained to me that she basically beliefs there is no control. Us meeting each other? Faith. Us choosing to grab a bite? Faith. Then she went on to tell me she beliefs we are souls who have chosen our own life and parents. Knowing full-well what life has in store for us on earth before we even begin out lifes.

Profound stuff and i coulden't resist to offer her the opportunity to smoke DMT. She answered "i'd rather not, because she is very afraid to lose control."

What struck me most. And here's where i belief we do have choices. We can make wrong choices. I don't really want to talk about right or wrong. But atleast choices that are detrimental to our development. As souls..

Nevermind that, i don't want to delve so deep into other another person's life at this point.

I remember a story i heared from Alan Watts. A buddhist monk is contructed by the teacher to go around the garden and mown the lawn every day. The teacher said that he will try to attack the student while he is working the garden and the student has to defend himself from the attack. The student then learns that anticipating the attack from all possible angles and times is only making him afraid. It is a kind of psychological torture. The student is much better of remaining in a state of awareness for the entire time. Enjoying his work. And deal with the attack when it happens.

I am kind of lost here But yea.. This is an interesting topic , i would love to delve deeper into it even tho i am not quite versed in philosophy, or the topic at hand. ^^

I think control, or what the mind views subjectively as the concept of control, is our way of remaining sane and functional, in certain situations.

Perhaps its not control of the outside reality we try and impose thats the necessary type of control, but rather control of our thoughts/mind, the ability to focus in on something, that i view as a necessary usage of control over your mind.

But, at the end of the day it can be bad or good for whatever its put to use against, depending on how the individual uses the concept to shape their perception of their surroundings, and their actions to try and steer things in a certain direction.

Too much or too little, is always a bad thing. But relatively, you are controlling your reality, abstracting your own reality, no matter how hard you try and let go of control.

Trying to get rid of it completely, is a bad idea, and just as impossible of a goal as trying to control completely. Either your mind, or the outside reality you perceive.

So i guess i agree with your assertion that its a means of illusion of safety/security, but that can be leveraged to your advantage if you use it correctly. However, you must balance it, with what you can/cannot control, and how control over something has foreseen/unforeseen consequences.

I see it as neither inherently good or bad, just a tool that in the hands of certain individuals can have good or bad outcomes, relatively that is.

Great points, The Day Tripper. I think you're spot-on with your observations as well. Maybe it's not about utterly giving up control, but finding that balance between control and letting go. Because honestly, yes, it does seem impossible to let go 100% of the time - and I don't think that's a bad thing at all.

Control what you can, when you can, but at the same time always know that the control could be stripped away at any moment. Like the awareness Infectedstyle spoke of with the Alan Watts story (Man I love his teachings). And when you feel it's right - let go. If only for brief moments here or there, or for extended periods, like when you've ingested an entheogen.

I remember coming back from down from a trip once, can't recall the substance at the moment, but I was struck with this image of a boulder jutting up from the bottom of a rushing river. The rock was strong in its resolve (I attributed this to the idea of control) and although it seemed like it was holding its own it was actually slowly being eroded on all sides by the water in the river. Tiny pieces would break off now and then to be carried further down the rapids (this was the idea of letting go) and it all flowed together like some weird puzzle that was pieced together perfectly. The balance between control and lack of control, just another tightrope we all walk across every moment, every day.

I think we have a lot less control than we think we do, possibly none at all.

Most of our thoughts, feelings and actions are controlled by the unconscious mind. And the external world is a lot less predictable and a lot more uncertain than we would dare to admit and is driven by forces that we barely comprehend.

The conscious you seems less like an actor to me and more like a member of the audience.

That control is an illusion is a theme common in many of my psychedelic experiences that I think it really chips away at the concept of identity. What if our sense of having interpreted and acted upon an experience is actually as external as the experience itself? I think this realization goes hand in hand with self-consciousness because to be self-conscious we must externalize actions such as (perception, interpretation, and reaction) that we previously felt were part of us. Self-consciousness requires one to take a step back from the self so that it can be properly objectified. At lease this is how self-consciousness, and eventually ego-death, manifests in my psychedelic experiences.

What if our actions are merely the consequences of other actions, what if we think that WE act but that is an illusion, something, some force some power...something caused the action that made us "Act" in a certain way.

If this where true it would be mind bending, we would merely be puppets of other forces....in universe all running in perfect harmony.
Forces for which we have no tools to perceive.

Or as in many occult theories there is a Higher Self or Higher Guardian Angel that is just a term an abstract one but what if we have some higher dimensional being or "thing" which takes actions for us...and this thing is the consequence of something bigger...to Infinity.

If you believe in These "consciousness waves" or that people are somehow affected by the forces/waves coming from the galaxy...

To be honest I never felt not in control but that doesn't prove anything.

Complete Randomness in complete Harmony!?!?


:/

Control is an illusion, but not in the way most people think it is.

Control is the resistance to the flow. The flow, is life, is all. When life resists itself, the experience of being out of control arises, and that causes fear, which re-enforces the sense of self, separatism and the "I" inside that you think you have.

You don't have control. "Free-will" is completely non-existent! Check, look for yourself. For real. Really look! How you ask?

Try meditating. While you are meditating, look for the 'one' inside who is meditating. Where are the thoughts coming from? Can you stop a thought mid-stream? Can you chose your next thought? If you do chose your next thought, who really made the choice? Where did the thought that you chose to think, come from? Can you answer these questions directly, and honestly, using only the reality you have in front of you, without flowery spiritual talk of "consciousness", or, what-not? Just straight answers from what you can really see?

The control illusion comes because you still think you're a person who is the master or controller of his or her body and mind. There is no "I" inside you. LOOK! When ever you look for the I, all you will find is more thoughts saying "Here I am!", but it's just thoughts! If you feel the "I", then as you feel it, you'll quickly see it dissolves and is gone too!

So, look inside while you meditate. Where are your thoughts coming from? Oh, just more thoughts? And more? and more? It's just thoughts, a labeling, which comes along-side every direct experience. It's like a narrator, sitting on the side, shouting out what is going on, so you can understand what you see. But it's not YOU, it's just the side narrator, who's somehow hijacked the show and made itself into a "self". There is no "you". There is a body, a mind, but no controller, no "Self", no little person inside your head, being the target of the experience being had. It's just experience itself, just the flow of life, flowing.

Good luck finding a "self" in there under your thoughts. You just have to "believe" in the self like one would have to believe in Santa Clause. You can never find the real Santa in reality, and you'll never find a real "self" in reality either.

Keep this in mind: For the next thought you think after you read the last sentence I write. Did you think it? Or was it just thought without a thinker needing to think it? And, if you think you decided to consciously think it, who decided to do that? From where did that thought come from?

Any choice you make, or thought you have, or opinion you cling to dearly, is influenced entirely by a couple of things.

1-your genetic makeup (e.g. aspects of taste, mental disorders that affect how your brain works, intelligence to varying degrees)
2-your upbringing (who your parents are and how they raised you, the school that taught you more than most give it credit for, your friends, you environment)
3-what you have learned from your past experiences (which is in turn influenced by what you have learned from every prior experience dating back to your very first experience)
4-your surroundings/environment (that sexy girl sitting by you, the dankness of that pizza, that tricked out car that just drove by, that freaking moron that you have to deal with every day at work)

What do these four items have in common? THEY ARE TOTALLY BEYOND YOUR CONTROL. It's just a seamless web of influence.

If I am forgetting something (which I am sure that I am), my apologies, this is just how I see it. However, if I am forgetting something I am willing to bet if you trace it back to its origins they are beyond your control also. That is just it though. Since everything is just one huge chain of cause and effect, how could any effect that you perceive was made by you, originate from you, when you have existed as a human being for a gazillionth of the lifespan of the known universe? All effects can be linked to all corresponding causes, back to that first cause (the big bang). It is of my opinion that anything that occurs is in fact an extention of that first cause, which is of course beyond your control.

control is an attempt of the ego to direct the soul

Perhaps this is a miniscule example in the face of all of these deep philosophical ones, but to go along with something that Mindlusion alluded to in the OP, a clear example of not having control over your body comes in the form of reflexes. If your knee is properly stricken, your leg will move involuntarily. When you start to sneeze, you can't help but have your body go through a number of autonomous actions. If you have a cough, you can't really stop yourself from coughing. These reflexes show the little control we have over actions that are typically voluntary such as closing ones eyes, using ones respiratory system in a fluid, voluntary manner etc...but this is also to overlook all of the bodily functions of which we have no control over and can only modulate in the most indirect of manners like heartbeat, digestion, etc...

What is interesting about psychedelics is that other than the relinquishing of control over emotions, over your situation within the experience and life circumstances, etc...there is a somewhat unique potential loss of control over the body's limbs that makes reflexes seem rather simplistic in the form of symmetrical Qi-Gong-like movements, motion towards or away from concentrations of energy (i.e. physical light), etc...It is almost humbling in a way to know that we don't necessarily have to be the ones always guiding the actions of our bodies. Furthermore, these kinds of actions are not unique to the psychedelic experience, but rather they can be cultivated through meditative practices, and in these meditative practices moreso than the psychedelic experience where the effect is more acute, it requires that one purposely give up control of certain body parts in order to allow the seemingly outside force from moving the body for you. Again, sorry to get away from the profundity of the conversation that's been going on.