I think you haven't done your research. Start thinking a little kinder then. Just to quote the gracie academy:

Seems MANY countries special forces train bjj... In brazil they certainly do, the BOPE for example. The Mexicans special forces also get bjj training Even in Albania the special forces train bjj.

I could even give an example closer to heart, but I think it's not necessary. I think there's no doubt this is a very effective martial art when it comes to self defense and street fights. And the philosophical/spiritual part of it is very strong with some of the masters... At least for me I can certainly make the bridge and use my practice as an improvement to my spirit, regardless of the effectiveness of it as self defense.

As ewok said, you're the one bringing MMA into this whole discussion, nobody was dissing your kung fu, nobody here is trying to prove they are better than others, I only see you saying you or your buds can kill or make minced meat out of this or that fighter. Seems kinda silly, no offense.

I think we should better discuss how our martial arts can serve to improve ourselves, not to prove we are better than others. I thought that was the whole point.....

I was going to link to this when at home hard to do off phone.

Oh wow watch this match

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xNIQhtWIyCY

I really like jeff glover and bill cooper, have you seen any of glovers travels endlessness? they are on youtube quite good series if your into bjj.

In actuality, it was Ewok who challenged me with MMA and started in with attacking my posts. See this post where this thread took the turn it did. https://www.dmt-nexus.me...&m=468302#post468302 From there, it was a mix of me trying to explain my feelings on the matter, with various positive, negative and neutral reactions to this.

Naturally, I am not unused to such things. A good percentage of the threads I have participated on here at the Nexus have involved people questioning the often incredible things I say. I am regularly called nutjob, absurd, ridiculous, ludicrous, delusional, paranoid, megalomaniac, crazy and worse. Yet, in the end, I tend to win over a number of people and have a rather full PM box with letters from people who support my positions and may not want to wade into the often ugly discourse that passes for respect here.

Needless to say, I am not now, nor have I ever been... a crazy person. Unlike many of the people who suggest this about me, I have never had anyone even suggest I could benefit from taking any mental health pharmaceuticals. I could point to a number of threads where members who admit to being on anti-psychotic medication are continually calling me delusional. Alas, I am not. Not even slightly.

(Hyperspace Fool smiles broadly and with compassion for his less fortunate Nexians)

Endlessness my dear brother, perhaps you recall this memorable thread where people, led by a mod no less, were allowed to denigrate me and name call me... well endlessly... while you said nary a word... publicly at least. You did say you spoke to the aggressors behind the scene, but I never saw any of that, and the general impression on the thread was that you were defending them. If these conversations went the other way around and it was me posting insulting joke videos and calling other people names, I am quite sure I would be banned. But since many of the insiders on this site have very materialistic views on things, it tends to be that the ATTITUDE section goes out the window when it comes to people poking fun at me and my experiences.

This is somewhat less now than it was in years past as a number of my former taunters have continued to evolve their opinions, and now sound themselves, in some cases, nearly as far out as the things they were coming down on me for. The OP of this very thread used to taunt me about stuff he is now a proud practitioner of. I still find it amusing that AKL is now a Tai Chi Chuan advocate as I can point to many posts where he thought chi was a joke. Since he doesn't seem to be around at the moment, I will not draw him into this, but it warms my heart to see people come around.

You yourself, gave me a good deal of grief over my stance on entities, and yet our recent conversations on the matter have shown that you are significantly closer to the very positions that you found incredulous. As such, I have become somewhat used to the (often young) "voices of reason" pointing at the old mystic and laughing... often to the delight of the people who are supposed to scold them for such rude personal attacks.

I don't care. I need no mod protection, and I find a little healthy debate to be fun. I share my experiences and then spend days responding to the ridicule. Fun. Heheheh.

As for the assertion that special forces and military have moved en masse to BJJ since the last time I checked on it... turns out that most military services have sent people to learn from basically everyone who will teach them. You can find such claims about every art from Apache Knife Fighting, Sambo, Escrima, Nguni Stick Fighting, Bokator and other relatively unknown arts to basically all of the popular ones. You can read for days about military forces learning Combato, Krav Maga, Jeet Kun Do, Shipalgi, Keysi, Biker Pit Fighting, S.P.E.A.R, Nindokai, Systema, Muay Thai, Kapu Ku'ialua, R.A.T, Vacon, Stato, Vale Tudo, Ninjitsu, L.I.N.E, and MCMAP (the current official style of the Marine Corps).

In truth, none of this talk makes any real sense, as it turns out that the actual soldiers receive relatively little hand to hand combat training... far less than any practicing martial artist. Not that these guys are not dangerous, but: (from a study on military combat training)
"Let us first note that the average soldier gets about 18 hours of hand to hand in basic training. They get a little more if they are in the Infantry or Marines. In the Army you get about 18 more hours if you go to Ranger School and 36 hours in the Special forces Qualification Course. Maybe if they go to S.E.R.E. they will reveive another 12 to 18 hours. Unless you are in a Special Operations unit, the unit only does hand to hand, maybe once a quarter. When you think about the numbers. The average Karate blackbelt has way more training and experience than a Military person or in many cases even Special Ops. Most of the hand to hand training even in Special Operations is learned on their own."

I realize that I injected the military thing into this, and apologize as it is a moot point. It is fascinating to see military and paramilitary guys in their crisp uniforms learning or practicing this or that... but it is a kind of advertising ploy for the most part. To read about how much some art is used in military and police circles off of their own website turns out to mean absolutely nothing.

Again, sorry for bringing it up. I am willing to admit when something I have added to a debate turns out to be a blind alley or a wild goose chase.

You said mma guys have no idea and that your fellas could beat 10mma champions without breaking a sweat I simply asked if your being serious and stated I disagree. You brought up mma I didn't challenge you with it and never attacked your posts. Sorry if you feel that way it wasn't my intention. We disagree about mma which isn't an issue for me not sure why it is for you though.

Perhaps it was unwise to state my opinion that a true grand master could handle 10 MMA guys.

Of course, once challenged about my belief, I felt it only fair to explain a bit why I have that belief. From there, there were many sarcastic and snide remarks (along with a number of authentic questions and challenges) that encouraged me to continue on and further elaborate.

In retrospect, the fact that I was commenting on this thread simultaneously as I was engaged in an even more vitriolic one elsewhere where a Nexian named SKA felt it fine to call me delusional over and over again probably colored my comments here to some degree. I have come to be a bit quick to defend myself on this site because I know how things tend to go here.

I say something that challenges the belief systems or worldviews of some snarky members, who then berate me and tend to be cheered on by senior members and mods. Next, I consider abandoning any hope of a civil debate and moving on, but am encouraged to continue posting by people on the thread and also privately. My PM box overflows with people who want to hear what I am saying, as well as people who would like to stand up for mystical practices and beliefs but don't feel strong enough to deal with the actual rhetorical nature of debate.

As such, when someone starts in on me with the whole "you can't be serious" or "what a load of crap" stuff, I can get a tad bit defensive.

For this I apologize. I tend to do a better job of calmly stating my views and experiences and not getting sucked into the juvenile name calling and pissing contests. I will attempt to uphold my standards on this a bit better in the future.

SHroomtroll

Profoundly put... Martial arts is invaluable for strengthening synchronicity with the body and the mind. It is also a powerful tool for defense, though I to have transitioned from martial arts like: Judo and Jeet Kune Do to Tai Chi and Yoga.


Much Peace and Compassion

Im glad we can havea mature discussion about this topic since tma vs mma threads usually turns very sour very quick.



I want to add that i have great respect for all legit martial arts systems esp the old kung fu systems which basicly are the grandfather to most modern arts.

Iam also one of the few guys who is open to alot of this chi stuff aswell.


But i do stand my ground that a physicly strong (roided or not) highly skilled fighter would destroy a old guy no matter his chi powers or not.

If its something mma has proved over and over again it is that fighting is for warriors and athletes and no matter the skill of your tech it will not be as important than your physical level of tolerance.



Im really gonna look forward to see in a few years if alot more guys with tma backround can make a wave in mma, but right now we have 2guys which have some nice results with tma backrounds.

This is cung lee, he is a multiple sanshou champion and basicly top level kungfufighter, he is also a decent wrestler which balances out his skills alot.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UsOHonKPp8s



And of course the former world champ Lyoto Machida, who is a high level shotokan black belt a sumo fighter, judo and bjj Blackbelt.

This guy knows some shit for sure pure magic imo



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=o2m0VrfVzhQ




These guys can use their superior standupskills because they have a great grappling base and doesnt fear getting put on their backs.


Anyway i think its cool that the Ma field is so broad nowadays that we have all the systems flourishing and all of this info is out for people to learn.






ps: Also i just had to add a video of the opposite, this is jon jones a young wrestler turned into one of the most complete fighters of all time.

He is well of is way on becoming GOAT.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sKirYWR1sp0

HF, regarding the discussion thread you linked, Im sorry you felt attacked, and as I recall, I most definitely talked to people in PM as well as finding compromise with you, even writting the wiki piece regarding how to deal with those entities together with you. As for Art being a moderator and disrespecting the attitude, I think you need to read attitude closer, on the bottom, because he is the only person in the forum given authorization to disrespect it as our watch dog, not even the trav has such authorization

That being said, if in the future you feel disrespected again, feel free to PM me, as I am totally willing, as I have done in the past many times, to mediate between arguments without taking sides.

I'm glad we have come to a calmer atmosphere regarding the martial arts discussion. Thanks for taking this step too HF


Ewok, no I haven't seen any of glover's travels, but he seems like someone with a very fun personality, I will most definitely watch it, thanks for the tip

Groan... why do so many of these Nexian threads get so damn debative and so conflicting? This always strikes me as counter-productive to our mutual aims. Just sayin'...

I'd like to sincerely revisit the OP's initial intention, wondering how many psychonauts have trained in martial arts and what it means to us, deep down in. How has it changed us in a positive, productive and wholly transformative way? Kicking ass in a tavern or pounding the snot our of one's opponent; gladiator-style, for base monetary reasons... is IMO, not a justifiable use of these time-honored methods.

If we turn our attention to the term "martial arts", we clearly see that while these practices BEGAN as a systematic and scientific study of combat situations (methods, techniques and combinations), they inarguably became quite modified over the centuries, into a genuine form of true art.

Surely, without the marital, the art becomes so stylized as to become most impractical and effectively useless in a real, balls-to-the-wall conflict... as with Wushu and some of the modern schools of "airy-fairy" Tai Chi. So, obviously a balance is required and from this line of thought, I'd like to add a few questions of my own into the mix.

In addition to my prior query, whether or not any of you good people do any weapons practice, only HF made a peep. I am curious if this is because so few of you guys and gals have embraced staff, sword, spear, bow n' arrow, halberd or the wide variety of farming implements which were changed into martial weapons, in moments of direst need? Or does it seem like it has little value to a 21st century human being?

Now, there is a pervading contemporary conception (or is it really a passing hypothesis?), that weapons training is completely archaic and most impractical... in a world of street fighting and exchanges of gun fire. Is that the thing?

Anyone who has spent much training in the martial arts knows all too well that only the more advanced students are allowed to train with weapons, as beginners benefit little from such complex movements and as HF wisely mentioned, the weapon becomes a living extension of the warrior's spirit (Qi/Ki/Khi or simply one's internal energy/personal essence).

I have personally found that not only hand-to-hand training, but especially in weapons training. By sheer necessity, the student shifts his or her focus and intent degree of steady concentration, to an exponentially broader range of mindful awareness.

I won't go into any "hocus pocus" here, because methinks that would generate yet another debate, but I'd like to hear some ideas from the rest of you. And I am not so naive to believe that folks who do Judo, BJJ or grappling would even have any familiarity with the archaic weapons of the marital arts. Still, those of you who study Gong Fu, Taijiquan, Karate Do, Filipino Arts and Olympic fencing, have surely been exposed to these ancient methods of deeply challenging, personal self-transformation.

For the peaceful psychonaut, the idea of hurting others is most disdainful, to say the very least! In my own heart... I cannot fathom stabbing or slashing another person, crushing their skull, poking their eyes out, bursting their eardrums or collapsing their larynx. God no! That's the very last thing I would ever, ever, ever want to have to do to another living soul!!!

But we must all come to terms with our choices and live up to our values... for better or for worst. Thus, who amongst us would walk idly by a young woman in distress, being molested by a savage brute? Who amongst us would turn their gaze away from a small child being dragged into the bushes by a pervert with an agenda, in a public park? Who would walk blindly away from getting involved in a dangerous situation, if an elderly person was being savagely beaten or robbed? Just who would avoid disadvantageous odds, to save the life of one who was hopelessly outnumbered? This is the real shit, it's not a game!

I long ago made my own personal choices. To some, it is contradictory to my spiritual beliefs and my philosophy. In my own mind and heart, it only further supports my most cherished beliefs. All is One. God is everything, everyone, every aspect of all that exists. Such is the miracle of existence.

But I have come to believe that in the illusion of soul-division and the dynamics of dichotomy (as mirage we mutually co-dream)... evil does seemingly exists to intentionally harm the innocent and the peace-makers. While this whole freaking trip is a virtual mirage... our intended choices do demand our truest conviction and an unwavering honesty within oneself.

No woman will be humiliated, molested or raped, if I have anything to say or do about it. No child will be hurt, no elder will be taken advantage of. No innocent pet will be subjected to the insanity of sadism... and no weak or fearful person will ever be alone if I am within range of their immediate need.

I would sacrifice myself, if need be, for another sentient being without blinking an eye. No bullshit, no bradaggio, no vague code of ethics. I sense that many of you feel the same. The term is called, "martial spirit". Being willing to die to save another, one who cannot feasibly protect themselves from the cruelty of assault by those who choose to walk the road of the dark force. Not to be melodramatic, but this world is a terrifying place for many unfortunate souls caught in the desperate anguish of sheer helplessness, as situations develop to twist the harmony of unity into a distorted and horrifying reality.

So, we learn these techniques that we might better understanding the geometry and science of the "Art of War". Why so? Because through proper understanding, the warrior gains the frightening knowledge of the delicate fragility of the human organism, and how precious existence truly is. Real strength means having a compassionate heart and a balanced mind.

War is Hell!!! Fighting is not entertainment. Violence is a terrible thing to have to live with and many of us share the pain of this vibration of crude behavior. I've said it before and I'll say it again, wouldn't we all prefer to live in a world without conflict or intentional hurtful behavior? One based on honesty, peace and universal love? Only fools and vulgar thugs enjoy unbridled, brutal conflict.

I would honestly, without reservation, give my life willingly to protect another soul who was helpless before the insanity and oppressiveness of unnecessary and unwanted violent confrontation. It's far more than who can kick whose ass. It's not a game, it's not a sport... it is specifically a code of honor that has it's roots deep in humanity's greatest heroic sensibilities.

So, I would also really like to share a few of the beautiful things I have learned in my 40 years of weapons training, but I will wait until a few of you psychedelic folks comment on my post. Or not... for there is no intended requirement anyone to even say, "boo". Okay?

Great post Rising Spirit.

I have felt a couple of times what you mean when the weapon becomes an extension of oneself, except it was (in my very amateurish) juggling on acid. I have also had glimpses of it when training bjj on acid, where I felt the actual opponent was an extension of myself too, though it didnt last long probably because I'm not yet advanced in the art.

I never trained with weapons though, except practicing bow and arrow a few times with a friend, and definitely not enough to feel 'one' with the weapon. This friend of mine is very into it, he's a brown belt at karate (don't know what style, sorry) and trains with a variety of weapons. It's really special to watch him practice.

Lastly, I totally agree with you regarding peace. I'm a very chilled and peaceful person and have always taken the mediation and dialogue route. I would never ever choose to engage in conflict or physical violence by my own initiative. But I train also trying to be ready so that, if it ever happens that I need to defend myself, my girl or family or some other defenseless child/woman/disabled/old person, that I am ready for it.

Feel free to add more of your experience, I would be really interested in reading about it

I have fooled around with nunchucks and swords in the past, though never under supervision or guidance from a suitably trained person. And it never appealed to me as something I'd like to explore further.

Martial arts were always uninteresting to me, had seen many demonstrations friends partook in them etc. I never figured out the appeal, that was until I was asked to join someone in an introductory class of a self defense system loosely based on jiu jitsu. It was the first time Ive wanted to look into any martial art.

Soon after I discovered Proper Brazilian jiu jitsu, at the time it was rear here not many places to train it. But I was hooked from the start and still am now.

My reasons for doing it don't stem from wanting to protect my self or others thats a bonus that comes with it. I have fought mma, competed in countless bjj and grappling matches and done very well in all the competition, but even the competing isn't why I train.

For me Brailian jiu jitsu isn't a martial art or a sport its a life style, I don't train it I live it.

This ^

Agreed. This is the pivotal symettry we each share, regardless of system or school. Living the martial arts lifestyle is a 24/7 experience. It takes hold of our being and leads us to a deeper understanding of the harmony within all of this seeming dichotomy, as with the oneness of Yin-Yang.

As a middle aged man who has seen far too much violence up close, I have no interest whatsoever in fighting, combat or anything of the sort. I have taken the martial out of my arts entirely, and am only focused on internal work and transcendental yogic alchemy. After all, this is where the fun stuff is.

But alas, being an awake, present human often puts one in a position where one could use one's knowledge of dynamics, form and structure to influence, overpower, or otherwise engage others. I see these situations more than most as a DJ and producer of music, because... sadly, when people go out they drink, and drunk people tend to fight.

As such, I have made a "many decades long study" of the kind of violence that most people are likely to encounter. I often think to myself if my input in a given situation would be required or not. I have become expert at watching the energy flows that lead to conflict and how they get resolved in the presence of testosterone and alcohol.

My philosophy on this is to uplift the vibration of the scene as much as possible. To reach out in friendship and respect in ways that actually make a difference is a very subtle art. Much more profound than beating up a poor aggressor, is the ability to diffuse situations and avoid conflict altogether. THIS is the art of a real warrior. Using compassion, love and energy to keep fights from ever happening.

There have been countless times when my mere presence at an event kept people from being injured. Often without me moving an inch. This is not just some kind of psychic power, but it is also a practical and tangible ability to MAKE peace.

We had a tradition in the Rainbow Family of some truly peaceful warriors walking the encampment and keeping the peace. It is not a kind of security force, but we call ourselves shanti sena. Peace Keepers. Doing this kind of work is very enlightening. In the hands of young people with something to prove, it can devolve into vigilantism. (which I am firmly against) But in the spirit of love and brotherhood, strong warriors can prevent tragic things from ever occurring merely by their presence.

It is difficult to put into words, but quite often if I walk up to a group of people who are in a flash of emotion that is liable to lead to violence... me merely standing there and smiling benevolently, is enough to dispel evil that would have surely come.

I won't cite examples now, as this is already rather long. But I have yards and yards of practical examples of how the mind and energy work of the internal arts can defeat violence without even ever engaging it. In fact, that is the only way it really ever does. If you are pushed into a situation where you must act and use force on another, you have already failed.

HF

I heartily second this. The debate about who can beat up whom is so tired, IMHO.


I'm a Taiji newbie (2 years) so I have not yet trained weapons and therefore cannot share first-hand experience. But the sentiments you express about weapons training being a rocketship to internal cultivation are similarly expressed in a recent book that has influenced me greatly, Meredith's "Juice: Radical Taiji Energetics". I plan to train sword as soon as it makes sense for me to do so.

eH

I definitely agree with what you said. More often than not, violence can be avoided and transformed simply by the right presence and state of mind/spirit.

I have witnessed one such event last year in boom festival. When working in kosmicare, we were dealing with people having severe bad trips, and offering them a calm and safe context where they could go through their experience and integrate what they have been through. One of the cases that arrived there was a man who had flipped out after taking multiple drugs, had climbed on stage, pissed on people, bitten the security crew and so on. When we saw him, he arrived in the security car, with the guards having handcuffed his hands behind his back and were stepping on his neck so he wouldn't move. He was shouting all sorts of things, threatening them with violence and so on.

So when this man arrived at kosmicare, we went to receive him, and one of our crew, who was a very special and experienced fellow, said to the security to get away from the guy (inspite of their distrust), and he just put his hand softly on the guy's shoulder and told him to stand up, while also removing the handcuffs. As soon as he had the handcuffs removed and the security moved away, with the calming presence of the crew, the man had completely calmed down and went into the teepee where we had the space for people. He just laid down, slept, and woke up a new person. The next day he appologized to everybody and thanked us for our work.

Had he continued to be handcuffed and maybe thrown away of the festival, it would most certainly generate a backlash, and he would have put himself and others in danger. But the right presence of someone has completely avoided the need or possibility for a violent confrontation.

This is just one such example and im sure you have experienced several others too, HF.

Nevertheless, I think what rising Spirit meant was not much when one can still avoid the violence, which im sure most or all of us would preffer (and should practice because it's not easy to maintain this complete inner calm) but if violent action is already happening (such as a kid being abused), in which case the martial aspect of martial art would come in handy purely as a defense and actually be the only reasonable application for it IMO.

MMA? lol. I wont bother to read this thread cus I don't care but I have seen little Korean men who could probly run cirlces around those guys. I did taekwondo for many years, competed frequently in full contact and won many competitions so I feel like I know somewhat what I am talking about. When I watch MMA often I feel like I am seeing big clunky men just sort of pound on each other..but they lack the speed and precision I have seen in even the oldest tiniest little Korean men and women.

I have known people who were in MMA and I don't think they compared to the masters I have encountered..they did get their asses handed to them in MMA though so I don't know lol.

I had one amazing teacher who taught the portugese Navy for years and my master was head of the world taekwondo association and both of those guys I think could kill most of those MMA guys if they wanted to(they wouldn't, they were masters and more enlightened than that whole MMA joke).

MMA is just a television bastardization of martial arts. Martial arts is not about what MMA is about. MMA is just about big men half of them probly on steroids competeing..and even though I did lots of it, I always hated competing and the way martial arts is usually approached in the west..which is why I moved away from it while at the same time moving more into something like surfing..which at it's core has a similar spirit in my opinion.

I guess you care enough to post here, so might as well read the thread

Some MMA is definitely big clunky men lacking precision and speed, and there's definitely some steroids with some of them, which is part of what I don't like in MMA, but most definitely not all. If you aren't aware, nowadays there are weight categories, so it goes from the heavy people to the light people. There are small skinny fighters with precision too, and there are those who are very against steroids. There are those with enormous ego and those who are very humble.

By the way, the whole MMA began exactly because of all these claims such as 'my master can beat anybody'. So people were like, 'oh yeah, lets see then..'... And guess what happened...

The first UFCs did not have weight categories, and a small guy called Royce Gracie beat everybody else including much bigger guys, not on one-touch-death-blow miracles, but on realistic technique and leverage, submitting them with chokes and locks. There were also kung fu and aikido and tae kwon do etc black belts, but they lost somewhere on the way. Nowadays mostly every fighter knows he has to learn ground grappling because realistically, most fights end up on the ground at some point. As rickson gracie said 'Im a shark, and the ground is the sea... and most people don't even know how to swim'.

Personally I was actually going to start doing kung fu when I decided training martial arts, but after watching a jiu jitsu class the day before starting, I knew that was the sport for me, so many hot sweaty guys grabbing each other.. lol joking, I knew it was for me because of how strategic, intelligent, realistic it was, avoiding strenght, using leverage and timing, etc.

This friend I mentioned before who is a brown belt at karate, decided to start training aikido too.. I was outraged to know that his karate master almost kicked him out of the dojo when he found out he was training aikido with someone else. How ridiculous is that, as if it makes you worse to train some other art. I mean, it's not like he is just a beginner and will confuse things, he has his karate very well established. It felt more like a sign that his master was jealous, possessive, affraid. People should realize the complementary aspect of martial arts, not get into silly fights over their differences.

I would even still like to learn kung fu or aikido later on in life once I'm well established with the art I chose. I don't understand why some people are so opposed to the other way around, learning ground grappling when they train standing-up martial arts, considering jj has been proven to work so well in realistic situations.. It's as if people felt it offended their own art, but I'd think it's a sign of humbleness. I'd like to learn as many sides of this whole story as possible (but being good at somethign and not just learning everythign superficially of course).