We all remember the earth was flat once. I do not think this is Orion's misconception.

However, grammar errors (while there weren't any) are in no way indicative of the quality of their research methods, scientific enquiry or statistical analysis skillsets. Cottonwood Research Foundation provided the funding to the researchers to conduct the study that they hint towards. There is nothing posted on that blog that predicts a poor study, only that there still isn't one properly published, only accepted. It's just a teaser, which again, does not negate or validate any study. In that respect, Orion is correct that there is still nothing that shows or not whether DMT is made in the pineal, regardless of the degree this blog advertises their demonstrative skills.

Depending on the journal (Biomedical Chromatography) there may be anything from a week to 6 months to see the paper online.

I suppose I'm being too general and far reaching. I don't think Orion has misconceptions as much as apprehensions or pre-conceptions. Campaign against Joe Rogan, maybe? I am simply saying we obviously have a long way to go in our understanding, and I was commenting on Orion's apparent resistance to the new information recently posted before even surveying it.

I also don't understand why Joe Rogan gets so much flack around here. He may not know what he's talking about very much, but he's talking about DMT in a way that gets people interested. I enjoy listening to his talks and experiences. He is energetic and entertaining. He is responsible for thousands, maybe hundreds of thousands of people hearing about DMT. To some, it won't sound appealing, and to some it will. Joe Rogan could be the trigger that brings someone to the spice for a life changing ride, whether or not he's right in declaring it's produced in the pineal gland or involved in dreaming... who cares! The spice will speak for itself to those who are curious for it, but we all have to know about it before we can experience it.

I think it's a great thing, and I think we need more people in positions to do so bringing awareness to DMT in whatever way they can. IMO, the more attention brought to the subject, the sooner we will find out if any of that pineal gland stuff is true or not.

And sorry again for that post which I would again ask The Neural or a mod to remove. Or ban me, whatever the protocol is. Twenty-some posts deep and I'm already a condescender and a Joe Rogan lover. It's not looking good for me, is it?

I joke, and I do apologize. I haven't been getting much sleep due to recent endeavors in kitchen chemistry. I just need to break through and melt my ego down. Then I'll be fine I promise, heh

Goodnite everybody.. I'm going to go hang out with Joe Rogan in hyperspace during a dream induced pineal gland DMT trip

I think one reason Joe Rogan sometimes gets flack more than someone like Terrence Mckenna is image. Joe looks and sounds like someone that, if you were to see him down the pub, you"d be worried that he would give you a slap if you looked at his drink in a manner not to his liking. Whereas Tereence mckenna looks and sounds like a well read uncle who would kindly read you a bedtime story if you couldnt sleep.
I think they are both as relevant as eachother and just appeal to different peer groups. I would like to see a Terry Mcrogan hybrid.

And i don"t really understand Orion"s problems with the grammar. The person who wrote it is probly American and they speak a different sort of English to the native English-person (even though in this case "data establish" does make sense to me, as someone pointed out data is plural of datum).

Like I have already said It just sounded wrong to me. As I later said to a1pha it's not worth a debate, it has nothing to do with this topic.

Why do you keep suggesting that I am resisting information? The aim of this topic was to first debunk the myth which people so desperately want to be true and to pool as much solid information as possible. In future the very title of topic may no longer hold true, and if that ever happens, I welcome it. But my original points still hold true, I don't know why this is so difficult to take.

As for Joe Rogan thing you are again mistaken, I said 'Joe Rogan LOL' as a sarcastic joke because we all know a good percentage of people who even knew about this 'theory' in the first place is because of his enthusiastic rant about it where he quoted strassman saying it WAS produced in the human pineal gland which ...guess what... there is no evidence for. Hence the topic to debunk this claim and pool new information.



The only notion I hold onto here is that there is as of yet no proof. What's the problem ?

Now if you don't mind that's enough acidity, we are all friends here.

And for the love of spring onions can we drop the 'our new data establish' grammar correctness thing. Seems I am wrong, cheerfully withdrawn.

It might not be worth a debate but you did question the legitimacy of the foundation over a grammatical error. Maybe we should hold back our negative personal feelings if we don't want to discuss them? Especially for a group with similar goals as the DMT-Nexus.




Yes, it is their data.


...
I think we will have more on topic information when the study is published.

* Withdrawn by me for being a cheeky git *

We care if something on this forum is brought as a fact while it is clear that it is still an hypothesis or personal idea.

I have said this many times before but lets say it again: On the DMT-Nexus we want to have reliable information that is supported by logical thinking and reliable sources.

If something is still an hypothesis or someones idea, then it is not allowed to bring it as fact on the DMT-Nexus. I want people to be able to trust the information coming from the DMT-Nexus, if we are not strict with this rule we will not be able to stop the proliferation of wild and reckless ideas that in the end can hurt our cause.

As such Joe Rogan was called out for presenting claims about our beloved molecule as fact while it was(is) still an hypothesis.


And please, shall we stop talking about and grammer speling errorrs?


Kind regards,

The Traveler

I've had a lot of personal experiences that would point to DMT being in the brain.


However, I cannot accept this as fact until there is tangible evidence put forth that it is indeed created in our brains.

I am interested in the two studies that are set for publication.

One says to have proven that DMT is is produced in the brains of rats, the other says it was found to be produced in the brains of primates. But I will await peer review to see what can be gleaned and accepted from these studies. But the preliminary findings seem to once again be leaning towards DMT in the Pineal.

http://www.cottonwoodresearch.org/dmt-pineal-2013/ - Rats findings.

Trying to find the one on Primates I was reading last week.

i think if it were shown to be produced in primates we would have heard about it.

afaik the only thing they discovered was INMT immunoreactivity in primate nervous tissue (all three places they tested)

Why are people so focused on DMT anyways? 5-MeO-DMT and bufotenine are also endogenous psychoactives and nobody seems to look for them or think they are important? Or other beta carbolines or cannabinoids or opiates or a host of substances also present in our bodies, are they not important for our birth, death, spontaneous spiritual experiences, etc?

and let's say that DMT is shown to be produced the pineal.. then what? What can we conclude from it appart from..... it being produced the pineal? Im sure a lot of people would immediately think this proves DMT is released at birth and death, but that's a whole different kind of speculation of course.

DMT is also produced in the lungs, at least INMT enzyme is there... Is there be a spiritual significance too, and if so, why is it never discussed (for example, pranayama or other breathing techniques and the relationship to possible DMT production there) ?

Just a few things that pop to mind...

Sometimes this pineal story seems a bit fetish-ish (lol) , and Im not seeing a lot of other interesting questions being asked

Endlessness, you're placing WAY too much weight on a single study that failed to find INMT transcripts in the brain.

The site where it would have the most active effect would be exactly the site you would expect it to be the most highly regulated. Failing to find INMT transcripts there, in that particular culture, at that particular time, under those particular conditions... really means nothing at all. Certainly nothing worth using to fuel an argument.

All that study shows is that that they didn't find INMT transcripts in the brain when they shouldn't have. All it shows is that INMT production is well regulated in the brain. To me, that is more indicative that it IS produced in the brain than not.

If the brain were dribbling out DMT producing enzymes all the time then it couldn't be very sensitive to DMT, that is the response would have to be weaker to compensate for the transcript leakage.

In any case, it's important to remember that all a cDNA analysis shows is what transcripts are there in a particular culture with the particular age and conditions involved. Trying to broaden that to any larger conclusion is not supported. Trying to claim that study shows DMT is not produced in the brain is like claiming your well has run dry because no water is coming out of your (turned off) faucet.

Do a study using tissue undergoing birth, death, OOBE, REM sleep, psychosis, or any of the other proposed DMT-related states... and then it might make sense to try and draw some conclusions.

It should also probably be pointed out that post-transcriptional regulation could knock down transcripts while you're busy extracting or blotting the RNA. So a negative result doesn't even necessarily mean that it's not being produced.


-FF

P.S. Please don't take any of this as dissing you, I enjoy reading your posts and respect your intellect.

Yup, even though this was part of a poster presentation and has not been published in peer reviewed journals. Even if their results still hold valid, presence of INMT in the pineal does not imply that dmt is produced in the pineal (it really doesn't imply it).

We are still waiting for the publication that (according to the press conference) demonstrates dmt synthesis, or was that merely presence(?) in the pineal.

I also agree with Endlessness' post - we shouldn't probably giving too much focus on dmt and disfavour the other endogenous psychedelics....

Can you explain that statement? Seems pretty unlikely to me that INMT would not = DMT.


-FF

Should MHiRB contain/produce Scatole just because there is DMT in it?
That logic is erroneous.

Take this as an example on why the presence of a substance does not necessarily imply the presence of such a specific metabolite of that substance.

Apol's if this has been said but i haven't read thro' the whole thread BUT surely the question of where DMT resides in the body or if it does is surpassed by the fact that there are receptors in the brain that the molecule attaches its self, why would that receptor exist if NN DMT wasnt in the body?

Because those receptors have many agonists besides DMT. The fact DMT binds to them does not imply their only purpose is receiving DMT.

Hey FF

Dont worry I dont think you're dissing me, your post is appreciated. Do note that you quoted some post from me that is more than 2 years old, for starters.... And at that time, it was the only study looking specifically into this question we had, so while it isn't enough, at least it was more than pure speculation.

Nowadays I wouldn't say science is pointing against it because there are other factors at play such as you mentioned, and other publications of interest coming out that may show otherwise, but still no proof either way is there yet.

And regardless, as I asked in my last post, I feel that the whole focus on the pineal DMT is a bit of a diversion from a lot of other interesting questions, and even if it was shown to be there, it doesnt doesn't really show much else, specially not about the other speculation people might tie in together with the 'pineal dmt' story.

In any case, im certainly interested in what facts will come out of this whole story.. The more research is done and the more reliable facts appear, the better, whether it shows us one thing or another

The workings of biological systems are never as simple as that, aren't they? We know that INMT primarily converts tryptamine to NMT. INMT also converts NMT to DMT but at a much lower rate; we also know that DMT is a potent inhibitor of INMT.

One can hypothesize that INMT in the what-ever tissue is expressed primarily forms NMT which may, it its own respect have important physiological roles. DMT, whether it reaches INMT from the local vicinity or the periphery (as e.g. a hormone) might serve to quench the ability of INMT to form NMT. Or maybe not. Without apt demonstrations we cannot just jump into conclusions.

Let's not look for our keys around the lamp post just because this is where we see better. The keys might have been forgotten back in the pub.

The only way to really prove this hypothesis is to get a dying patient to agree to be killed and immidiately analyzed. The fact that DMT is so easily broken down makes it hard to identify in dead tissue, or fluids. You need fresh material, and as far as i know, the only analysis on truly fresh brain/pineal matter in search of DMT is the recent study on rats, which consistently showed measurable levels of DMT. Rick Strassman covers this in his book, they analyzed cow pineals for endogenous DMT, but stressed that because of the poor preservation and the time elapsed he knew that he would not find any.

If youre looking for some sort of precursor, or some sort of evidence to show that DMT is probably produced in the brain, it will always be challenged, much like what is going on now. Personally, i think its there, but honestly, i dont know shit, at least until living brain tissue is analyzed in a number of people, which will likely never happen.

To me its an interesting idea, and probably the closest thing to a scientific explanation of certain aspects of life not otherwise explainable. I'm more inclined to believe the DMT model for mystical experiences than any religion, thats for sure.

Essentially, it can't really be proven, at least not for a long time. After all, isnt this the purpose of using DMT in the first place? to explore WHY such a chemical exists in your body, by observing the effects of the chemical? think about it. we identified THC in marijuana, realized it made people hungry, and then scientists discovered endocannabinoids which play a role in appetite. Its similar with DMT, except it induces intense, often religious experiences. i think these experiences are a giant part of human life. i don't think it's nieve to assume it could serve a purpose in our bodies