The levels of dimensions that the Amazonian Shaman describe as the places where one goes while partaking in the ayahuasca experience:


The 3rd is the one we are currently in.

The 4th is time (though I have heard differently from mathematicians, such as on this Carl Sagan youtube video http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UnURElCzGc0 ). This confuses me.

The 5th is the world of dreams, symbolism, the collective unconscious, etc. This is where we go while we sleep or have intuitions and the like.

The 6th is the spirit realm, where spirits reside.

The 7th is the dimension of energy and vibration, it is also the dimension of large entities, ones resembling UFOs the size of football fields, etc.

The 8th is the dimension of pure potentiality, where change can be affected, where mind can overcome matter: such as one seeing through his or her body, recognizing, and getting rid of cancer. It has also been observed that one person can remove an injury or cancer from another person here as well.

The 9th dimension is where ALL comes together in ONE. Past, present, and future are all one and the same thing. All that ever was, ever will be, and ever is, are there at the same time.


Some Amazonian Shamans believe that smoking pure DMT catapults one straight into the 6th dimension, the world of spirits. That one can go no further because when one smokes DMT the time frame is simply too short to go any further. I believe that smoking ayahuasca leaves or Syrian rue seeds before and during (if possible) smoking pure DMT can indeed lead one into further realms.

as far as I know this is just what some guy that Joe Rogan interviewed says, about one amazonian currandero who said that to him. Hardly evidence that anyone else other than this one guy believes any of that stuff. Just saying..becasue you said "some" believe this to be true and I really am skeptical when people say things like this.

On the upside the 9 worlds is something found in yggdrasil, the norse world tree..and other cultures as well.

http://dailymythogies.wo...l-the-cosmic-world-tree/

Thanks for sharing this with us.
I've spent a good amount of time, mostly in Peru working with various healers. One thing I can add to your topic is there are many different schools of thought. Some of the healers I worked with incorporate Christina Deity's in their belief systems, some believe in angels and demons, while others adhere to more of a Tibetan philosophy of after life and realms of consciousness. There are as many schools of thought as there are Shamans in the Amazon which is nice. Keeps things interesting and fresh. Find what resonates with you and go from there I say.
However I have never met a shaman from Peru that has ever heard of DMT, in fact none even knew that was the active agent in chacruna. I have even worked with shamans that we not aware that other plants such as chaliponga are commonly used by their Brazilian neighbors for ayahausca.

I would say the most common belief I was told there is the 3 worlds, the over world, where plant spirits reside, our world of the living, and the underworlds where the entities as we would call them are. This is quite similar to other pagan and North American indigenous cultures teach.

Interesting though. Cheers

Just seems to me like the same old seeker game of trying to fit everything to the tree... not that it can't be a fun game, or hell, even a useful one. This sort of paradigm is pretty common and has been for thousands of years. In my own experience, I've noted that that my own perception and its varied states seems to echo many of these models... even sometimes stunningly so. But then, straight lines so seldom contain the subtleties of these things.

Overall though, that brief description just seems to me like the old game seekers play with themselves of trying to fit language around the works of the experience. Moreover, with such an obvious effort to make this particular model seem to fit other models of the spectrum of experience, it may well be easier to reference more commonplace vitalistic or holistic models, something akin to the 8-circuit model of Leary and RAW fame, or even similar modern theories of consciousness. Since it's all so mutually inclusive, there's not really any possibility of the primacy of one or the other.

One thought I found interesting was the idea that smoked DMT produces only a 6-dimension effect due to duration. Disregarding the obvious catch point where the subjective timescale of a DMT trip is irrelevant to the minutes passed, the duration of a trip (or even the trip itself) is irrelevant to the "level" achieved. As many of us have noted, the circumstances surrounding that particular matter are so dynamic, ever-changing and complex that for most of us, the dose, potentiation or ROA are not the determining factor by a long shot. In my own experience (and it seems to me a great number of users), DMT routinely produces states that go far beyond the "6th dimension"/spirit realm/mythopoetic landscape (which are commonly achieved through visionary practices, moments of intense inspiration or duress, and drugs like psilocybin, mescaline and even LSD.) DMT blows these substances out of the water not only in terms of potency but also in terms of the incredible range of its effect and presentation, and will take the user as far as he or she is capable of going. Period. If the author's own experience was limited to a "6th dimensional" experience as they say, I propose that he either was not paying attention, didn't go that far into it, or is just a confused and misinformed seeker who has not stepped up to the gilded portal with his own two feet.

Ultimately, the only way to make sense of this stuff is to buck up and do it ourselves, individually. Talk of dimensions only confuse most "3d" minds, and these models are laughably inadequate and useless to most others. They do, however, have their place. Robert Anton Wilson, along with many in the neo-pagan community (if you can wade through esoterica that thick, does a great job of laying this type of model out in a very organized and "accessible" manner, and it does parallel quite well (don't mind that the numbers don't match, "dimensions" are often merged/split/switched according to the interpreter and relevance.

Look, don't read.

^^^^

This.

I agree wholeheartedly.

I often return to dimensional analogies with entheogens and higher dreamwork etc. But, anything we can say about it is woefully inadequate... and as you so truly state, spice is frickin' unpredictable. Couple this with the fact that we only remember a tiny part of the experience later...

Anyway, nice thread. Some of that 9-d stuff resonates with me. I also like the number 9. But I have seen convincing cases for a 10, 11, 12 and even 13 d model.

All the best peeps. Keep searching.

HF

I read once about a grid of 12 dimensions with 12 overtones that created 144 potentials/permutations for reality within its construct..

I think it might have been via a book by Stewart Swerdlow (Journeys into hyperspace, someone nicked it, much like all my good books end up going walkabout) and while it was a long time ago it resonated with me (back then).. I recall it mentioned Pythagorean harmonics and the like.

Nowadays, in my mind, all bets are off

Pythagorean Harmonics... interesting. I have been thinking about harmonics in the context of dimensional "frequencies." It does seem that certain dimensions and overtones are actually harmonically related in much the same way that scales of harmonic tones work in music. i.e. a dimension that is a "perfect fifth" from the one you are in, might be easier to travel to, because in some ways it resolves this one harmonically.

Just postulating, but nice synchronicity there ZP.

Praise from HF

I can feel the ego inflating, leading to a desire to journey so I can bash it back into place lol (joke, my ego is not so easily 'aggrandized'. Seriously, much appreciated HF

I do feel cyamtics will play a large part of the eventual revealing (or furthering) of this kind of research (but thats just my feeling, I am strcitly a very interested layperson). DMT tones FTW

I have the impression that the Shipibo i've met see this sightly different. They have a good idea of the spirit world and their plant/animal spirit helpers (and where to find them). But even for them there are infinite amounts of "places" they dont know or dont go to.
It doesn't stop; there is no border, it goes on up to infinity.

After over 100 times, each and every one of my experiences has been different, but I have been to the same place a few times (returned back to the fluid, rotating, geared machine a few times - wtf is that?, I always wonder 'why do I keep seeing this?? What is the lesson there?), but for the most part the experience is still different.

I do not take this model to be my dogma, yes, I got this from

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5HCoY4NF4yA, thought it was still interesting.

I have heard that there are as many as 196,000 dimensions!!!, at least mathematically - I will post this as soon as I get that article back from my uncle...

For the logical record, when someone says 'some', that should not raise skepticism, only when someone says 'all' -principles of symbolic logic 101

I just thought that it was a super cool way of describing the experience, even if only one person believes it.


Just got finished reading "The Tibetan Book of the Dead", it also describes the experience similarly...

I guess all human experience, collectively as a whole, including past experiences for 10s of thousands of years columinates seconds after blast off...

Some also think that the experience is a reading of our DNA.

I always think that what we are experiencing is our future, our highest possible state of evolution, but one that has paradoxically already been there for eternity.

9 has always been a sacred number.

now..ever wonder why mala beads always seem to have 108 beads on them?..either that or 54 beads etc?

Ever wonder why soma is siad to be 108 plants?

Ever wonder what the whole 432 hertz frequency is about?

Or why some people like ananda bosmon put so much emphasis on the 8 hertz frequency that basically is the shulman resonance?

Well, I have.

Maybe I am insane(I thought about this while pretty baked okay)..

54 goes into 108 2 times..
108 fits perfectly into 432 4 times.
Now, remember that 54..well 8 fits into 432 exactly 54 times.
9 is a sacred number all over it seems so I figure it must fit somewhere..
Well 9 fits perfectly into 108 12 times.

Of course 3 comes up often..3 worlds, the trinity etc..fits into 9 pretty damn perfectly.

I dont know what any of that means..but all these numbers have some kind of connection that makes me suspicious.

Numbers, numbers... always playing around and coming back around on themselves, endlessly relating in a menagerie of complex ways, with beautiful order and sometimes striking perfection...

It's almost like it was mathematics or something.

7 has also always been a sacred number for some reason....


It is pretty sure at least, that we know that ultimate reality consists of vibrations occurring at different speeds and frequencies, from the vibrations of the molecules moving in our hands extremely quickly, to the birth and death of stars being a very slow vibration, to the birth and death of ourselves being a vibration which is faster, but is too slow for us to really grasp, especially since we are in that particular vibration...

It's probably wise not to be too literal in our descriptions and interpretations of The Ineffable.

Just what is a Dimension, anyway? Are they discreet things that exist on their own, or a gradient of perceptual modes over a unified whole?

Just as 1 and 2 dimensional space are mere mathematical abstractions to us (infinitely small points and infinitely large lines and planes don't exist in 3d space) maybe we 3d's are also mere abstractions to higher dimensional realities. How would we even know?

The Map is not the Place and sometimes approximations are probably the best we can get.

The Mystery is the best part of the game.

Amen, brother.

Nice to be in a place where other people know exactly what you are on about...

Yes, I've noticed that hyperspace works in a way similar to the harmonic series (and music in general myself). The interconnecting layers and "harmonic motion" of hyperspace has this quality about it similar to classical music composition often with epic grandeur. The lullaby music I've heard from hyperspace quite literally employs well-arranged 4 part harmony with good voice leading (all the notes move most smoothly from one chord to the next). Then of course we have DMT's "electronic music" as well which sometimes seems like the common thread of hyperspace - that hyperspace and the entities sometimes seem to be made of sound itself. The particular sequences that go off around them may be indicative of their emotional state or a method of communication or a method of facilitating the interdimensional things they do or a simple consequence of their existence, or telling you about their "harmonic composition" and thus about their geometry as well...it could be any of those things, it could be about things that we just don't even understand or have thought of yet, but we just don't know...but it's fun to think about.

Also, I think somewhere some time back everyone got used to the idea of time as the fourth dimension. I don't see a need for this distinction, and it really doesn't make too much sense to me. From my journeys in hyperspace, it seems quite clear that we can add extra spatial dimensions without the need of talking about time as the fourth dimension.

It makes more sense to me that we probably have a certain set of spatial dimensions along with a (possibly smaller set) of temporal dimensions. So let's start at the bottom up, and see how far we get. In geometry we have a zero dimensional point. It is really more theoretical than anything. If we think about a zero dimensional point in time that would be a moment...you know that one that just went by....and here comes another...did you see it? Of course it's easy to see how that's just as theoretical and conceptual as the zero dimensional point in space.

So moving on, we have a one dimensional line in geometry so our corresponding temporal dimension would be a linear one dimensional line in time. This seems to be the way that we tend to experience time (or at least the way we tend to think about the way that we experience time regardless if it's true or not). In two dimensional time (which by my guess would be closer to the way we probably experience time on a day to day basis) time is still somewhat linear, but it's got more flexing room for distortion. I view this as somewhat akin to time flying when you're having fun seeming unusually slow at the dentist's office, but things don't get too wacky in this temporal dimension.

Three dimensional time is something I feel I've experienced on DMT. Can I be sure? Of course not. I can't be sure of anything I've just said, but during some of my godhead experiences, as I approach the godhead, the "particles of time" quite literally seem to dilate into spheroids. I want to stress it's not something that I see visually, but it is perceived in some fashion though I can't really describe it. Time expands and expands and expands until it comes to a grinding halt. This reminds me of the "highest" theoretical spatial dimension which might assume that it encapsulates all of the other spatial dimensions to come before it, and is therefore the 1 sum of the whole. This is how time comes across in the presence of the godhead to me which seems interestingly fitting anyway now that I think about it. Now I don't know if that particular dimension is the fourth temporal dimension or higher, but I see it as a better way to address time than to have a bunch of spatial dimensions and then the fourth one is time and then we're on to whatever. It just seems so inconsistent.

Nice G

Dig that.

I think it is probably wise to deal with spatial and temporal dimensions separately as well.

Having had more than my fair share of timeless moments expanding into the infinite in eternity... I feel you on the higher temporal dimensions. Perhaps this figures into the dreaming experience of time dilation as well.

infinite. least I never found the end