Hi All Who Read This,

I could not help but notice this thread this morning: https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=44385

Unfortunately as I am new to this forum I am not able to air any views in that section, but I would like to here.

I could not help but notice how some people are downright condescending about the use of alcohol. Especially when in conjunction with something those particular people almost see as the holy grail of all psychedelics. And then those very people want to judge someone who drinks a beer or two daily as an alcoholic? That's ridiculous.

i have had struggles with a couple substances in my life. Cocaine for one and alcohol in a much lesser degree. The definition of an alcoholic or addict as theorised by AA and NA is someone who is no longer able to meet their life's responsibilities as a result of their addiction. So if drinking a beer a day keeps you from taking kids to school, and knowing that it will do so, you cannot help yourself or dont care as the booze is that important, then we have an alcoholic on your hands.

Chemicals are just chemicals. all have effects on our body. Some more profound and interesting than others. Some are addictive and some are not. Most people should know about the negative effects that alcohol has on our bodies, and as we are all adults (I hope) we should be able to make the choice to drink it or not. If the tables were turned and DMT and related substance were legalised. Would we be the same as the people in power now? Would we have the same audacity as them by making alcohol and other substances that we deem bad for people illegal?

This is s free world. Everyone has the right to choose for themselves what they consume based on the full spectrum of information available to them about any given substance and the effects and side effects they might have.

I like beer. I drink it on weekends. Used to beer drink daily too, but realised for myself that I was replacing cocaine with something else that might be cheaper, but certainly is worse for me in the long run physically. I have had many awesome DMT experiences after a couple beers. And many awesome experiences without a drop. I find DMT very hard to smoke as the transition is so shockingly fast and hectic. 0 -1 000 000km/h in 10 seconds. I am understandably nervous about that most of the time. Having a beer or two is a quick way of calming down if I need it.

So in essence all I want to say is: We shouldn't make the mistake of judging people who drink alcohol as many people who drink alcohol judge us. DMT is illegal. I don't think it should be, but it is. And this makes all the difference to those alcohol chugging brainwashed citizens just as iot makes all the difference to us supposedly more open-minded explorers that can't believe that alcohol is legal and so many other beneficial chemicals are not.

:-)

Be happy and not worry about other people's doings unless we can see it destroying their and other's lives and want to genuinely help.

My opinion. Many will not agree and are entitled to their opinion and say about it. :-D

apologies to everyone. My phone went nuts and posted like 5 of these!

woah, 5 threads!

that has to be some kind of record

have you been drinking or something?

Hahaha! I see there is only one thread now. Maybe I just saw 5 on account of drinking so much! Bwahahahaha!

No, I fixed it for you.

Might be best to stay off the forums while drunk.

There's no need to make a mess.

After a few drinks I have had some really really cool tryps. The best ones however I was sober. It was rather confusing the only time ever I smoked while truly drunk. Everything took on a smooth texture and a red, yellow and orange colored pattern. Kind of like fire, but in more of a pattern. The pattern was moving super quickly toward and into a piece of actual chelsedoney (a type of crystal) which was somehow now negative space. Weird.

I would definitely be one of those who abhors alcohol, and speaks out about its negative ramifications on society, and those who live in it.

So we want to define addiction....

I see an addict as someone who is powerless against a substance and feels he/she must have it. My mother was a "functioning" alcoholic. She drank everyday, but still maintained a job, saw to her responsibilities, etc.

Does that mean she wasn't addicted? She was.

I've been an addict several times in my life as well. Not with alcohol, but only because of the things I was subjected to as a young person. I learned early on to hate alcohol and projected that hate onto any person who indulged in it. I still struggle with those feelings to this day.

If you look at alcohol as just another drug, it really starts to look different than you thought it to be. Say, a night of drinking written out like an erowid trip report.

0:00 - First dose is administered, 30ml distilled liquor.

0:05 - Second dose administered, same quantity.

0:05 - 0:15 - Repeated dosages in quick succession.

0:30 - Lost count of dosages. Feeling warm in the face, dilation of capillaries.

0:45 - Inhibitions are lowered, judgment is impaired.

0:50 - Bodyload is extremely unpleasant, balance is markedly impaired, vision is blurred.

1:00 - More dosages administered.

1:04 - Tried to get up and go pee, fell repeatedly.

1:10 - Vomit.

1:16 - More vomit.

1:20 - Fell asleep on the toilet seat.

8:50 - Awoke in bathroom with terrible headache, feeling dehydrated. Tried to eat toast, vomited. Tried to drink water, vomited.

Sure, that may be considered a night of "heavy" drinking, but it does sound like a terrible drug that has no meaningful value, doesn't it? That's how I choose to see it. It feels more like a poisoning than anything.


Well, that's also debatable I don't consider myself or our world to be "free". We are given the illusion of freedom, the freedom to choose, but inevitably it's just an illusion. If we choose to do things others don't approve of, especially our government, we are labeled as criminals, outcasts, deviants. We are shunned and made to labor in obscurity without respect or decency.

We are unable to choose what substance we consume, without fear of imprisonment and all the consequences I mentioned above. In our society, no one likes a "druggie", which is what you are labeled when you choose to ingest substances that are not socially acceptable. It doesn't matter if you're a "functioning" addict, ingesting only one or two doses a day. It doesn't even matter if you only consume on special occasions, in social situations, etc. The majority of people will condemn you and ostracize you based on their cultural programming.

Alcohol is legal because it provides no real insight into our consciousness, our reality, or anything really. It allows people a brief respite from their daily material grind, without allowing them to gain anything truly meaningful or positive that could challenge the status quo. Any substance my government condones surely has no real transformative power. If it did, it would be a danger to them and their tight reign of control over the populace.

/end rant

Fungaal, do not worry, I am one of those who consider alcohol the ultimate entheogen so I understand your stance. Sure alcohol has its own bag of problems but which substance doesn't? Personally I have seen more people losing it from abuse of psychedelics than abuse of alcohol...

It is a bad case of elitism when people praise one substance and condemn another and thankfully as you saw in the thread you posted most if people do not necessarily have a negative stance towards it.



Highly debatable and absolutely biased. Alcohol to many is an entheogen, and I can get deep insights by it. It all depends on the use.

jesus seemed to be pretty nutty about wine.
i would imagine he was a pretty entheogenic dude.

Abhorring the sunbstance is different to treating the person consuming it like a second class citizen because he consumes it. I agree wholeheartedly with every thing you say about the negative effects on people and society as a whole. :-) Alcohol abuse is a scourge.




I should have said "We live in a 'so called' free world" lol! Yeah, most people actually believe they are free when in fact their freedom is all a myth.

I feel that freedom is a state of mind. Addiction with its physical qualities is an SOB but the mind and body are not separate. Terence Mckenna had some really great insights about addiction. I like his piece on how alcohol was not really a huge problem in most societys like it is today until it became prohibited and then distilled. The concentrated forms are far from natural. Its likely that even dinosaurs used to get drunk on fermented fruit on the ground.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kvs_C0oyoqo

;

I LOVE TO DRINK.

We bring people together, play some cards, some pong. Everyone loosens up and enjoys themselves. I'm usually the "fire" at the party. I'm also the bartender. Now, for some up-tight friends you have, get a few drinks and they're the craziest funniest people you'll ever meet.
Girls turn into a whole different animal. Alot end up taking their clothes off, some don't and passout in a corner. But I've noticed girls use it as an excuse to do what they want

Now that being said, with moderation. Alchohol isn't a problem. If you start 'buy beer, or pay the rent?' or you drink so much it causes problems..you drink and drive, you're violent.. It's wrong.

It all depends on the individual. The setting, and the usage.
Tons of people cannot handle alchohol, gives it a bad name. Right place, right setting, creates a good, fun, bonding enviorment for you and your mates to enjoy .

Dioxippus, with respect, if i wrote a trip report for my alcohol experiences it would not read like yours. On occasion there maybe vomit involved but thats ok, no-one gets moralistic when people purge on ayahusca.
We have been drinking alcohol for possibly nigh on 9000 years and psychosocial benefits of moderate use can bring on mood enhancement and stress reduction. Perhaps leading to social interaction with members of the opposite sex, which in turn, leads to procreation, which in turn leads to continuation of the species.
I think the violent crime and other problems are due to overindulgence of the individual and could be related to dealing with the pressures of soceity. People need a release valve and i reckon if some folk didn"t get pissed every once in a while that yes maybe violent crime would be reduced but other problems may arise. I am sure stress related murders would be on the up and people would just abuse some other substance.
Are the naysayers suggesting that people who work all week should smoke weed at the weekend rather than drinking? That is substance fascism and if we think like that we are no better than the people who look down on us for taking drugs.
People can be idiots on alcohol but being perfect is way over-rated. Understanding why someone overindulges a substance is far more important than saying whether there are good and bad drugs.

Sounds a lot like what everyone says about hallucinogenics. Set, setting, person.

In all honesty, this looks like simple reports that someone would write from an outside perspective. Almost what a doctor would write while observing the intoxicated individual.

If I wrote something similar for DMT then it would not look any different e.g. :

1. Dosage administered
2. Colour recognition impaired
3. Visual stimuli discrimination heavily impaired
4. Spatial processing extremely dysfunctional
5. Feeling of warmth all over body
6. No idea where I am
7. Coming down from the high
8. Extremely cold
9. Went to pee, balance impaired
10. Slept like a baby

P.S. with ayahuasca, add Vomit a few times in between

It's how you presented it. In trip reports, one adds all the pleasurable effects that are happening, all interactions with objects and other people, other realisations or just fun activities, which were all missing from your example.

I have written on the spiritual use of alcohol within the Iroquois, a confederacy of North American tribes. Here is a quote taken from Edmund Carpenter's essay Alcohol in the Iroquois Dream Quest

“Seventeenth-century Iroquois used alcohol to stimulate their mystical faculties. Various configurations around dreaming and the vision quest, present in Iroquois culture long before liquor was introduced, quickly became associated with it… to the Iroquois, intoxication originally meant not flight but search; not escape, but fulfillment; not loss of self, but discovery of self. To them it was a positive, spiritual experience.”

Erowid would file this under the "Bad Experience" section. Here is my trip report from Friday May 24, 2013.

Male 31 YO 180 lbs athletic healthy. Date night with wife.

0:00 Beer (me) wine(wife) arrives at table.

0:15 food arrives I order a glass of wine.

0:30 We both order a second glass of wine and a desert to share

1:15 we roll into a pub close to the restaurant we were at after we decided, fuck going to a movie let's go out. Beer (me) rum/7 (wife)

1:30 I get another beer

1:45 I get another beer and wife has another rum. (at this point our conversation has been great, we have been laughing, talking about our kids, our friends, our work etc etc)

2:00 decide to go meet some friends of ours downtown. get cab both a little tipsy, I would not say drunk yet but close.

2:30 Bar (something in between a nightclub and pub, so basically perfect spot) I grab a beer she gets something I forget.

2:50 ish I do 2 shots with a couple buddies I ran into. I get antoher beer. She is ast table with our friends.

3:00 I am no doubt about it drunk. Not blackout, not slurring, not acting like a prick, just happy drunk, a little louder, a little funnier (IMO).

3:15 Dance floor with wife and friends

3:45 ish, I leave dance floor and get everyone drinks. Manage to navigate 3 highballs and 4 beers back out onto the dance floor. Me +1 beer Wife as well, but I have no idea if she had drinks while I spent 20 mins with my other frineds and left her at table, so I will stop counting for here here.

4:15 ish another beer Table talk is loud and funny. Everyone having a great time

5:00 ish I have another beer, I am drunk.

5:30 we are on way home in cab, my wife is giving me the look.

5:45 sex

5:51 dick is hard, but I know there is no way I`m going to cum. Fuck. Wife laughs at me, continues to have sex with me though. A few mins later, she is done, I am frustrated, but we both laugh.

14:00 Bacon? sniff sniff, yeah that is bacon. I sit up on bed. Fuzzy, not too bad though light headache. Walk to kitchen, bacon eggs coffee is pretty much ready. Fuck me I am a lucky dude.

COMMENTS: Had an awesome night. Can't wait to do it again. I will have to make a point of being the one who gets up and makes breakfast next time.

I personally hate drinking. It makes me feel like crap even if its just a beer or two these days. It just feels deadening and lowering to my consciousness.. I did it enough freshman year of high school to last a lifetime. But i'm biased since Its also played a big role in a good chunk of my family completely destroying themselves. I can understand why it would be useful if used a certain way with psychedelics, but personally i've found other techniques that work far better for those purposes than alcohol

This is all just my opinion,experiences, and observations. I hope people can look at that in an accepting way...and realize that its NOT meant to come off as being judgemental or condescending to others with different thoughts and experiences. I don't look down on people who drink, this is just my personal take on it. Just do whatever works for you and be hoenst with yourself. I don't think most people in that previous thread were being overly condescending or judgmental either... Like me they were more often than not just sharing their honest opinions and experiences on the matter

Depends what you mean by "lose it" Almost everyone who takes a large dose of alcohol will "lose it" in some manner because their inhibitions are lowered and their judgment is impaired. Much the same can be said about psychedelics, in high doses. So the issue becomes over indulgence, consuming in excess, rather than the substance itself.


I don't see myself as elitist, but I'm definitely biased. Having been raised the way I was, it was a defense mechanism for me to learn to hate alcohol. I didn't want to end up in the same pit of despair I saw others fall into.


Like I said above, dosage is critical. But deep insights...I really have never encountered anyone, myself included, who have gained any deep insights from it. They use it to escape, to unwind, to socialize, etc.

If it had the power to provide deep insights, at least for the majority of people, why is it still legal in almost every country?


This is exactly my point of view. I believe I have an allergy to it, or my body simply rejects it for some reason. I feel extremely ill and poisoned for days after consuming even small amounts. I don't know if it's psychological, I've accepted that possibility. Our minds are powerful, but this feels like a real physiological response.

I do my best to not look down on those who drink. I tolerate it for the most part. It's when people over indulge and use it as an excuse to do horrible things, and then blame the alcohol, that I am most tested.

Alcohol does get a bad name from a lot of people abusing it and misusing it. But even used in a responsible manner still does not seem like it could provide anything remotely close to a psychedelic experience with profound changes in perception and valuable insights. They are two very different substances used for very different purposes.

Each to their own. If you enjoy alcohol, and you can enjoy it responsibly, that is your right. What truly bothers me about it is that the culture I live in looks down on those who choose to not partake in the consumption of alcohol. Therein lies the elitism and closed mindedness.