So I keep seeing stuff about monsanto. People are marching, I guess. Good for them. But my response is always this: quit your job. Start a garden. GMO's are some seriously ill stuff. Nowadays they are everywhere...at least in the USA.



This video right here does an excellent job demonstrating the wealth distribution situation in america.



In the video, to simplify things, he breaks it down to a hypothetical 100 people, and shows how the wealth is spread out amongst them, with the 1 % guy hoarding obscene amounts, the bottom people all struggling. Imagine that scenario happening amongst a small tribe of people. My answer is the same as my answer about monsanto: quit your stupid job, grow some vegetables. Build your own house. Go back to the earth. Live in small villages. get your new shoes from the guy a few doors down the road, not from nike.

Most of the arguments that I hear against this type of talk fall into 2 catagories;

a) my cats get all weird when I give them a new type of food. When I switched them to raw meat they looked at me like I was crazy! "Man, this is NOT food", they'd meow at me. Cats. Thinking raw meat is not food. Raw meat is definitely cat food. Kibble, I'm not so sure about.

b) happy slaves. "I'm happy being a slave, besides I'm not really a slave". Thing is, the slaves I've met....not generally all that happy. And the forests keep getting smaller, oceans keep filling with plastic.

On the bright side; people slowly, slooooooowly seem to come around to my thinking about such things. Slooow painful baby steps, I see them all the time. 10 years ago, I'd log on to look at dmt teks--all naptha. Bit by bit, people begin to wake up and say, "hmm, petrol. the stuff that's ruining our world. I think i will not use that toxic garbage to extract my spice. Pass the vegie oil please". Backyard poultry, permaculture, natural building and other positive developments are also growing momentum.

I know I know, I'm asking you to change your lifestyle, I'm just some starry eyed hippy dreamer, your kibble is just fine, my plan sounds vague, idealistic, this does not fit into your reality tunnel so it automatically gets rejected ect ect. But just imagine, for 5 minutes, as a mental excercise, a world where electricity is a luxury, not a constant nessesity and where the people live in autonomous communities, and imagine all this (and more) actually working, and imagine it whilst singing Imagine by John Lennon.

Dropping out sounds nice, but...

You can't escape what's happening here on the planet by unplugging.

In fact, the manner by which capitalism functions means that not only does dropping out become less-tenable with each passing day, but unless the system is directly challenged, every unplugged community runs the risk of being folded back into the capitalist paradigm (see: the communes from the 1960s/1970s).

Being unplugged won't save you when Spaceship Earth's life-support systems start failing.

Unplugging only makes sense if you are creating a community of resistance...an unplugged nexus that serves as a hub for challenging the system. Anything less is an escapist fantasy, imo.

Good points snozz

unplugging has its place, to an extent..But we must realize that a big part of turning this madhouse around is doing it from within the system itself

And keep in mind, you can still grow virtually all of your own food and be very self sustainable/non-consumerist without going totally off grid and disengaging completely



This is why we just need to convert a few billionaires to dmt...have them build the S.S. Kikker...and then we'll all sail and smoalk throughout international waters

Okay, so you both respond to the phrase "drop out"...



Off grid is important, IMO because....humans survived for a long time before electricity, just fine. How much forest has been destroyed in the past 100 years or so? I suppose my choice of the words "drop out" may not have been the best choice...I'm talking about changing society. the mechanism by which I suggest we go about that is....stop buying their garbage. Is that not simplicity itself?

"Changing the system from within"....is maybe just another catch phrase, like "drop out". Maybe I fail to grasp your actual meaning. But doesn't the system usually change the people that it eats? After the system poops you back out, well, who has been changed more, and was it really worth it?



Alternative energy has never impressed me. I've made this analogy before--fossil fuels are like heroin. Not good. But hey there's solar/methadone/suboxin....and that equals bargaining with the inevitable, looking for an easy way out.



I never said one word about escaping anything. I'm talking about stopping something. If you buy their garbage, play that game, then it can never stop. I'm advocating everyone "dropping out of society". I'm trying to visualize a world without centralized governmental type power. Without centralized supply of goods. I always assumed that such a scenario was impossible--lately however, I begin to see it being possible.


Anyway, that's just what I'm thinking about now. Challenge my positions if you like, I appreciate the response. Or jump in and collaborate. I have zero need to convince anyone of anything at this point--but I have an interest in planting a few seeds in some good minds.

I don"t wish to be argumentative but i don"t understand this analogy. If solar power is the methadone to fossil fuel"s heroin, does that mean that the sun is dihydrocodeine? Its all energy isn"t it?
I have lived before with solar power and i cannot see a problem with it at all. I think it is a natuaral progression. I also cannot see a problem with electricity if it is produced sustainably. I couldn"t live without my amplified pop music, not to mention all the electrical gadgetery that may have saved my bacon over the years.

I see changing the system from within as educating and passing on various pieces of beneficial knowledge and values. The older i get, the more important i feel this is.
But i may have misunderstood your post.

Imo, this is unobtainable without attacking the power at the heart of the system, capital. This can't be achieved by unplugging, imo. It will take direct action against the structures that currently stand to achieve what you have espoused.

How do you acquire the land without a job?

I just want to say, that on sincere level I totally agree with you. We have to change our system back to something more sane, but we can't just drop out and do it. No one takes drop outs seriously and if they see you growing a garden in a public space they will probably arrest you. Now you are in jail and technically every need is 'met' by the system.

I also completely agree about simply not supporting monsanto anymore. Get a job, buy a house or land, and grow your own food. Seriously I encourage everyone out there to consider this. It's a highly rewarding actively that ends with very nutritious food...

Use your wallet to vote. Use your actions to vote.

Support what you want to see and shun what you don't.
Don't drop out because you don't like what you see...I promise you will regret that for the rest of your life.
The world needs us to stay engaged. To show up and vote.

Peace.

I think the best course of action is to bring it to the community level.

I envision a future in which neighborhoods amount to large diverse farms that more or less produce their food self-sufficiently, run a small community electricity grid, and basically provide for themselves via what they can produce and can barter with other communities.

I'm not talking about any radical shifts in living. Simply getting to know the people in your neighborhood, creating the vision and slowly working on implementing it. As a community effort, if people are willing to just donate a few dollars and few hours a piece each week or each month toward the goal, a 10-year plan for this type of thing should be very feasible with really quite a minimal investment of time and money from each individual.

Rather than struggling against the current paradigm, it's simply a matter of creating a new one.

Imagine

Green Cities:


Foodscaping:


Community solar gardens:


♥

I like the way it is in costa rica, where electricity is a luxury, not a given.

About solar...http://www.lowtechmagazine.com/.../03/the-ugly-side-o.html

The fact is that solar panels are manufactured. I personally do not believe that "green" can be manufactured. If you have a product that has a smoke stack somewhere in it's history it is not a green product. It might be somewhat "greener", but I think it's way too late in the game for humanity to make minor concessions towards sustainability.

I'd love to be proven wrong about the solar panels thing. But so far, it has not happened. You can't solve a problem with the same mindset that caused it.

We are slow learners, us. And very good at bargaining and self deception.

In case I failed to explain the analogy:

We are addicted to energy consumption. (opiates)

Solar/wind/ect are offered up as cleaner alternatives. (methadone/subutex)

Riding a bike to get there/generally reverting back to forgotten technologies and advancing those technologies further (weed. a much better alternative)


I'm a recovering junkie myself............My current state of bargaining allows for electricty, from whatever source, as a rare indulgence.




Quiting your job, not paying taxes, not buying garbage...does that not attack the capital?



Well, I'm glad I'm not talking total nonsense. I work. Always have. I run my own business in fact.



That's what I've been doing. Except for the voting part--that's another discussion! Man, the phrase "drop out"-- people pounce on that one, eh? I wish I could edit the title here to "lets save the world already".

Not imo...it's not about your individual choices regarding systemic problems. Systemic problems require changing/ending the system at large.

Challenging the actual structures that create a place for global capital is attacking capital. Things like creating free schools, free markets, community gardens, etc. in places where people who need them can utilize them. These all need to be defended against the enforcement arm of the state, the police. Believe it or not, something as innocuous as a community garden can face the extreme brutality of the state, because it allows people to disengage with certain aspects of capitalism.

As long as the structures of capitalism stand, nothing is safe from its grasp. I know it sounds somewhat alarmist, or possibly even funny, but it has held true for most if not all of the social justice projects in recent history. When claims of "improper insurance," "need for CPS involvement" and "lack of a septic system" (among many others) can be used as legal routes to undermine people living in alternative manners and decimate their living conditions, it is not enough to simply avoid the dominant system.

Are you sure voting is another conversation?

I mean if you and I grow our own food how does that stop the world from continuing to destroy the planet?

I agree the political system is corrupt, but it is the only voice the masses have. Everyone will not agree on all points and marches, rallies, and protests typically do little to effect change unless there is a political aspect to them. What happened to the Occupy movement?

BTW I didn't just focus on the drop out part. I actually largely agree with you and the bulk of your post. I know the source of your frustration and your hopes....I know because I share them. I'd love to sing Imagine while holding hands with the whole world...but I'm steeped in reality. John Lennon was shot for a being a peace activist...that is reality. We live in a world were a lot of people don't want to be equal, they don't want to share, and they will disagree with you and I simply because we fall under some 'label' they disagree with...liberal, druggies, communists, anti religionist..etc, etc. That is the real world.

Also I sure don't have the answers, but I know this. I have at most say 50-60 more years on this planet short of some sort of medical miracle. I won't be here to see most of what we are asking for. The best I can do is support change while doing as little harm as possible. Could I rise up and participate more in politics? Sure I could. I could even run for president if I wanted to. It is however utterly out of my control if I'd get elected or even if any of the bills I'd float would get support. You have to work the system...and it's does suck and it is painfully slow at times...but how else do you get the pulse on a nations hopes, desires, and fears? It's imperfect, but it is what we have. Please use it. We need your vote....seriously. It takes minutes out of your life. I beg you.

So instead. I focus on minimizing my impact. Talking openly about the science of climate change to try and convince others to embrace this sort of view. This whole process will be evolutionary and not revolutionary. Revolutions end in lots of dead people. We want to evolve on this planet so we can all live in sustainable harmony. If we can't effect change with our political system in an evolutionary manner then I fear future generations will indeed have to fight and die to save this planet....

Hope you don't think I'm trying to be antagonistic. I'm really not. I actually worked myself into a pretty solid depression a few years back thinking like you are. Just wanting it all to be better..why can't it all just be better? Well I don't know why. I do know that I can control my thoughts and because of that I can effect some small change. If others do this as well then change will happen.

Peace

This is naive as well. There is an element of individuals acting that has to happen.

It's not that the system can't be brought to it's knees by everyone walking out of work. It most certainly can and would. The problem is everyone will not do it. Some will see it as an opportunity to get ahead of others..

SO let me point something out to everyone. Capitalism is NOT the problem. The problem is people wanting more than then need. People thinking they deserve more than others. Capitalism is just a system built by these neurotic sorts of people. When we end the individual neurosis the system will change.

When people talk of destroying capitalism I just sort of glaze over. How? Is it wrong for a person to invest his hard earned money to make more of it? If that is wrong then is it wrong to trade work for money? I mean you literally have to strike at the very heart of human thought and thinking to start killing capitalism. People don't want to be equal.

So this image is true...yet totally against human nature. Someone will stay on the plank and help the politician off...just so he can get ahead of the crowd that stood of the plank.



Because of this I say it all begins with the individual, but eventually like Snozz say's it has to effect the larger system. Luckily it is. Slavery was abolished, women can vote, gay's can come out, more people believe in climate change by the day. We are waking up...it is just PAINFULLY slow to most of us to watch.

Take care of what you can. Leave the rest for others.

Peace

We disagree fundamentally on this issue...and you know that

To address an earlier point of yours, voting with your dollars is for people who have dollars. Capitalism creates large groups of marginalized individuals who do not have a say in the system precisely because they have no dollars.

What we are seeing is not some aberration of capitalism...it's not capitalism run amok...it's merely capitalism playing out its natural/logical progression.

We've been back and forth about this enough to know that we're not going to sway each other's minds, I think. And that's ok

I agree with many of the other points you've made.

What if you bring value to other people through your job?

How do you propose travelling and knowing different cultures without the money to pay for the expenses as you go? Should other people just host you at their expense?

What about the internet? No job, no income. No income, no internet. No internet and no income, no ordering books online and reading 99.99999999999% of the information out there (spread all across the 'net).

What if money isn't the problem? What if you could be one of the guys with the obscene quantity of money and use it to bring positive change in this world? As a wealthy man you could influence the lifes of millions.


The way I see it, by choosing voluntary poverty in some forgotten corner of the world, you might indeed grow your food and have your house, but you will narrow your experience of the world considerably and greatly reduce the potential ways you have of making this world a better place.

I'm just saying, though. Feel free to disagree, it's just an opinion.

Same here, and I reached the same conclusions. If lots of people end up doing the same.. how can things not change then?

So then I'm just curious. How do we work the system to change it if you believe the system is the fundamental problem? To me the fact that we CAN work the system means we have a SHOT at getting out of this mess.

Just remember this. Capitalism is a system invented by humans. It is used however those humans want to use it. The current capitalism is grossly unfair and destroying the planet, but it could be regulated to completely change that.....the creators of the system can do as they please. My point is the neurosis of man created capitalism. Until the neurosis of man is cured there will be no cure for capitalism.

Hell if the people wanted we could literally all form hands and sing "Imagine". But the people, the vast majority of them, do not REALLy want that world. IF they did we would live in it.

That was a great post.

We don't work the system...the system can't be reformed. Period.

We create a new system. That's the only way.

As to capitalism, as I said last time we had this debate, you focus on the end stages...people making money off their money. What about the early stages?

You can't have capitalist, industrialist societies without coercion. It's not possible. People who live in places where the natural resources to fuel production are ripped from the earth have no desire to see their landbase destroyed. The only way to obtain the raw materials necessary is by force. That is one (of the many) fundamentally inescapable problem(s) of this system.

None of it is sustainable.

So? What if?

It's all going to come crashing down. The question is not if, but when.

I guess I'm trying to understand how exactly do you propose this is all going to happen?
We should all just what? Wait for it to all come crashing down? What then? Do you not think the people on top now will not reshuffle to the top in the new world as well? If we don't change it from the current system it isn't going to change. Even if it all fails, the people in power will still have all the weapons, and all the energy. We have to change it from the current system. If it fails I promise you the world will become dramatically worse for hundreds of years (maybe thousands) before it gets better. War and famine will run rampant.

Anyway you were initially correct. I actually don't want to debate this with you. It's largely irrelevant what either of us think. We are but 2 of 7 billion. If we fundamentally disagree then I just wonder how hard it would really be to put in place a system where everyone felt their needs were met on an equal footing. I don't think it can exist with the diversity of humans on the planet.