Before I first used Ayahuasca I was under the impression that it would give strong visuals and literally take you off into a different dimension. My experiences are somewhat less earth shattering. Let me share them:

50 grams Ourinhos Caapi and 50 grams Chacruna (Azarius):

First two tries. Virtually no effect. A slight buzzing deep in the night after waking up, a few burps and that was it.

However, I read that many people lift off on a dose like this, have strong visuals and don't come back to earth for the first 3 to 4 hours.

150 grams Black Caapi and 100 grams Chacruna (Maya):

Took this last week. The Caapi apparently is what causes my typical serpent skin sensations and visuals. Some different type of serpent was peeking in my body for 10 minutes. After that... nothing. Woke up regularly with serpent skin sensations which soon disappeared each time. No messages whatsoever, which is not exactly the norm with my trips.

During my last session a few days ago it may (not sure at all) have been explained why Chacruna never works with me:


150 grams Black Caapi and 12-25+ grams Chaliponga (Azarius & Maya):

Results guaranteed unless I ignore advise from the serpent. Then she won't give me anything with any dose the next time. Serpent skin sensations and visuals are standard: see what appears to be the outlines of the (huge) scales as a field around my body. Mind-crushing intensity at times, even at 15 grams, but just surrender, trust, and everything is fine.

Other than that: Endless telepathic communication, but no real visuals besides intense thoughts. No dream-like in-your-face visuals. No loss of consciouss awareness of the space I'm in.

Actually, I'm pretty thankful for this. The spiders, insects, demons and other visions I come across look amazingly scary often and I'm glad the visuals and "immersion" aren't that extreme. Otherwise I'd be pretty intimidated taking this stuff.

Duration:

15 grams Chaliponga: 1,5 hour trip approximately - 30 minutes very intense.
20 grams Chaliponga: 2,5 hour trip approximately - 45 minutes very intense.
25 grams Chaliponga: 3,5 hour trip approximately - 1 hour very intense.

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So, having read so many other accounts, I have a few questions:

1) Do other people actually get immersed into the experience to the point you "see" everything so clearly it's like a dream?

2) How long does your trip last on what amount?

3) What does your average trip consist of? (with me a snake advising me on relationships - and for the rest purging all kinds of dark stuff)

4) When people drink Ayahuasca with shamans they often talk about a thick, gritty, black sludge the size of one or two small cups. Even my 200 gram Black Caapi/40 gram Chaliponga didn't look like that (I started responsibly at 5 to 10 grams Chali). Are Shamanic doses heavier or do they just don't bother filtering their stuff through a basic T-shirt? Even if they don't filter it a second time the next day it's basically free of sludge, at least to the point it's not a "thick, gritty, black" liquid.

Thanks!

(and would love it if my posts can be transferred to the Ayahuasca section of this forum - can't post there)

What are "serpent skin sensations"?



1) Yeah it can be like that, but sometimes you have to relax into it in silent darkness to enter this trance/dreamlike state (with really high doses it can be much more in your face but the nausea can start to get pretty bad there). You'll drift into it and sometimes not realize your in another world at first, and when you do realize whats going on you snap right out of it. With practice though it gets easier to enter/navigate. Aya is a learned experience in a lot of ways

That said, as you know, the visual aspect is not the only thing ayahuasca is about. Not by a long shot. You can have incredibly powerful experiences at times without experiencing any 'visions' whatsoever

2) It depends. I've had them last anywhere from 1-2 hours to around 12 hours. Usually the peak is over by 4 hours i guess..im not good at keeping track of time while triping lol. If the caapi amount is very high it will last quite long

3) hard to say. just read up on reports if you want more on that

4)How many ml are you reducing your brew to? The more you reduce it in volume, the thicker, darker, and more bitter it gets. As far as shamanic doses in SA being more potent.. it totally depends. There is so much diversity/variation that its impossible to generalize about it i guess..but often I've heard they under-dose gringos sometimes, and that a lot of full on traditional brews do contain way higher amounts than most people would think

also it might be thick/gritty because often it seems in the amazon they brew the same day they drink (not sure if you did)..even if you just let the brew sit overnight a lot of sediment drops out. There is also many plants that they might add into a brew simultaneously

sounds like you have pretty weak chaliponga..or maybe even a different plant sold as chaliponga?

At those doses of the chaliponga I have I would not be comming back for quite a few hours..and yes it can be immersive..so much so that you cant make out the rest of the room around you through the visions.

Try Syrian Rue at 2 Grams and 100MG of freebase DMT, so 2100MG of total material its not fully immersive but the visuals were almost there I'd assume 125-150 MG freebase would be fully immersive visually or maybe more syrian rue but I usually use the 2100MG dose as such:

2 Grams rue split into 3 piles 700MG, 700MG and 600MG put the two piles of 700MG into two separate capsules and then then 600MG into a 3rd along with the 100 MG DMT, take the rue caps 15 mins apart from each other then the rue/dmt cap within another 5-15 mins after swallowing the second rue cap. I promise you will have at least decent OEV, and some real good CEV off this dose. Unless you have a high tolerance.

Just read the Ayahuasca chapter of Graham Hancock's Supernatural. He describes the Ayahuasca he drank as a "thick, dark, viscous liquid." He also describes the process: 22 pieces of vine, each about a foot long and almost as thick as his arm, were used for the brew. Everything was boiled down to "less than a liter of pure, concentrated ayahuasca."

As people were given small china-like cups, I guess every person was given about 50 ml of Ayahuasca. If each piece of vine weighed 1 kg (2,2 lbs) that is about 1,1 kg (2,4 lbs) of vine in each 50 ml cup...

Let's be conservative and say each piece was only 333 grams (1/3). Then people were drinking 350-400 grams of vine. And a home brew of 150 grams vine is considered strong. No wonder shamanic brews are thick sludge with people sometimes still seeing visions the next day. Somehow doubt so much vine is necessary. Not sure.

During the ceremony they only used 300 leaves of Chacruna, but they were freshly plucked so who knows how much more powerful they were than the dried stuff we buy. Guess we have an advantage with Chaliponga.

Hancock experienced visuals also. Guess that's what most people do. Mine is more along the lines of "Peru: Hell and Back" - overwhelmingly powerful but in my case luckily without too much visuals.

Where are you getting these numbers from re: weight?


Fresh vine still has considerable water weight. How big are the pieces in the brew? Even after being pounded with a hammer or similar, they may not approach the shredded/blended/powdered caapi most non-traditional consumers use. Combine those elements with the various claims regarding traditional brewing methods using single prolonged boils or boils where fresh water is added to the same boil rather than an entirely fresh wash and suddenly you have a fairly logical explanation for the weight differences in the starting material.


Do we have any information regarding potency of the potency fresh leaf material vs dry leaf material by weight? Water weight comes into question here as well.

Why are you assuming dosage would be the same for everyone? It often varies incredibly from person to person...And besides, brewing or extracting syrian rue is a way better method than just eating it

Regarding weight... I just handled 500 grams of shredded vine. Should easily fit in a foot of vine almost as thick as an arm.

Hancock described the brewing method: everything was hammered to pulp and after an x amount of hours poured into a second pot. Then fresh water was added to the first. Everything was boiled throughout the night, longer than the 3x3 hour home method (which should be 4 hours with vinegar and squeezing the bark in the end).

Anyway, I think it's safe to say that some shamanic brews at least sometimes have in the hundreds of grams of vine in them. Also, I read how Aubrey Marcus was allowed to drink two full cups, just for the heck of it. They're not so much ahead in the DMT fuel departtment I think, certainly not when home users use Chaliponga.

This. +1

If jamie and I drank the same brew, we would have markedly different experiences, based on physiology alone.


I'm assuming you just handled 500 grams of dry shredded vine. Is this correct? Have you ever handled/weighed fresh vine? Do you know how the weight of fresh/dry plant material compare? I'm not saying that there are not large amounts of vine in certain brews, I'm just asking for you to critically examine your statements...especially when comparing decoctions brewed in different manners.

Wasn't estimating by weight, but by volume (when dry shredded Caapi is theoretically pressed back into solid vine). And in any case, even with extremely conservative estimates I think it's safe to say that the Caapi doses you get in jungle are higher than the one the average person takes at home.

But it may not matter much at all, as the DMT content might be lacking in comparison to Chaliponga.

All just my own estimation. Someone has better examples, love to hear 'em.

Both the caapi doses and the DMT doses you can get in native environments are extremely variable. You can find abundant information here and here. In either case (jungle or non jungle) the dosages show a very wide range, so I would keep from making very general assumptions. The clear differences are in the setting and (not always) in the use of fresh versus dry material.

it is pretty well known that in many real indigenous tribes very large doses of vine are usually consumed. Far larger than any of us are drinking. I have been told by some that the vine doses they were given were comparable to 10-12g of rue.

I have also been told by some that the fresh vine they brewed was for some reason stronger than the same weight of the dry vine..no idea why. I dont think the water weight of vine adds so much that 500g wet would be still close to what we drink here dry. I have been told that the water weight of fresh vine is not comparable to say the water weight of mushrooms vs dry mushrooms.

Peter Gorman once talked about vine doses that his teachers used in the amazon on the ayahuasca forums..and they were way way above what I think anyone on this forum has ever brewed at home.

Fresh mushrooms have around 90% water and fresh tree bark/trunk generally varies between 40-60%.

so assume that wet vine is 50% water..than 500g wet per dose (which is definatly within the range I have been told by some) we are still talking around 250g dry per dose.

From hear say, in Jungle, they're able to boil several kilo's to 1 cup and still being very liquid. Will be powerful alright, but efficiency of boil-extraction cannot else than being lower but what's the big deal, getting wood there is less hard.