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DIY(cheap) Fluorimeter For LSD Idea Options
 
InMotion
#1 Posted : 4/20/2013 3:43:11 AM
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So I've been pondering some things back and forth. Talking with ouro in chat and seeing a few threads here and there.

I found a journal article

A Low-Cost Differential Fluorimeter for the Detection and Determination of LSD in Illicit Preparations
Philippe Baudot

I really am not impressed with the design used here but I guess that's beside the point. The article states
Quote:
In the case of LSD, fluorescence occurs between 400 and 530 nm, depending on the solvent and the pH employed. For example, excitation at 323 nm (kex max) in aqueous medium gives a blue fluorescence at 432 nm (kem max), whereas excitation at 325 nm fhex max) in aqueous molar sodium hydroxide produces a green fluorescence at 502 nm (hem max) (6,7). Observation with the eye can thus be carried out directly.


So I got to thinking and I came up with a rough idea for how to do some detection here. In the case of LSD, which is a pressing issue for many people taking such these days. 25I-NBOME's, DOI/DOB/DOC, bunk tabs, you name it its all out there and being passed around.

Here's the rough sketch in my head... For a dirt-cheap fluorimeter


Figure #1

Inside of a dark box:
A light source maybe a UV-A pen-lamp, maybe a small mercury vapor lamp. This needs to provide the emission source(323nm and/or 325nm). This shines through a cuvette. A cheap cuvette could actually be used to our advantage to block UV light below these desired wavelengths according to "figure #1" Smile.

Now perpendicular to this light source is where the emission will be collected. Here's the trick up my sleeve. A reversed LED and an op amp type circuit. LEDs with peak wavelengths of say 500nm are cheap and widely available. Wire this up to a decent micro-ammeter, and well I haven't exactly figured the rest out yet. IE: calibration, will this actually work?, you know the fine details...
 

Good quality Syrian rue (Peganum harmala) for an incredible price!
 
InMotion
#2 Posted : 4/20/2013 3:45:44 AM
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Article mentioned in post
 
The Day Tripper
#3 Posted : 4/20/2013 4:43:07 AM

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IDK about fancy solutions that are probably more accurate like what you describe, but i did an expirement once with a small 5w t5 blacklight and a 1/2 tab of lsd dissolved in 1/2ml of distilled water, and a control with a 1/2 blotter of 25i (~250ug, cant speculate on the acid dosage).

One glowed slightly bluish as expected (lsd), while the other exhibited no flourescence.

I do like the idea of using a led of the right wavelength to do this though. Might be a bit more accurate.

Though, unscrupulous vendors of rc 25x tabs could just lace their tabs with inactive amounts of a tryptamine that exhibited similar flourescence to get past such a rudimentary test.

I might just look into some different uv sources, (flouro, led, low watt mh/cmh/etc) and do a bunch of tests on my rc collection just to see if it shows anything regarding detection methods.

I have most of the 2c'x's (i,b,c,d,e t2, p), all the 25x compounds available to my knowledge (i,b,c,d), allylescaline, mescaline, dmt, 4-aco-dmt, 4-ho-met, 4-aco-met, 4-ho-mipt, 5-meo-mipt, 5-meo-dalt, a few tabs of lsd, lsa's from ergoloid containing seeds (hbwr, corymbosa), and prob a few i'm forgetting atm.

Would be interesting to see how they differ.

As far as the opamp idea, thats interesting to say the least. What about a fiber-optic splitter that feeds into a bunch of uv nm leds of difering wavelength, and an arduino or something to measure and give data regarding what nm is being recieved. Its pretty easy to measure small currents (or amplified ones) with cheap sensors and an arduino.

You could simplify it by just having a servo that moves a board on a track with the leds into the light path of the led sensor circuit rather than a fiber splitter. Or parallel fiber cables to the emitter output, and just turn on each led individually on at a time, either automated or manually.
"let those who have talked to the elves, find each other and band together" -TMK

In a society in which nearly everybody is dominated by somebody else's mind or by a disembodied mind, it becomes increasingly difficult to learn the truth about the activities of governments and corporations, about the quality or value of products, or about the health of one's own place and economy.
In such a society, also, our private economies will depend less upon the private ownership of real, usable property, and more upon property that is institutional and abstract, beyond individual control, such as money, insurance policies, certificates of deposit, stocks, etc. And as our private economies become more abstract, the mutual, free helps and pleasures of family and community life will be supplanted by a kind of displaced citizenship and by commerce with impersonal and self-interested suppliers...
The great enemy of freedom is the alignment of political power with wealth. This alignment destroys the commonwealth - that is, the natural wealth of localities and the local economies of household, neighborhood, and community - and so destroys democracy, of which the commonwealth is the foundation and practical means.” - Wendell Berry
 
The Day Tripper
#4 Posted : 4/20/2013 4:56:33 AM

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A multi diode like this would make this much simpler, and you might even be able to use two, one as an emitter, and one as a detector (with amp circuitry or not) along with a current sensor and an arduino (and the programming know-how, something i lack), to build a cheap diy uv flourometer.

http://www.s-et.com/uvcl...ti-wavelength-lamps.pdf

I'd hit up the arduio forums and run the idea by the old timers there to see if its a viable idea. Prob don't mention you want to use it to detect samples of psychadelic drugs though lol.
"let those who have talked to the elves, find each other and band together" -TMK

In a society in which nearly everybody is dominated by somebody else's mind or by a disembodied mind, it becomes increasingly difficult to learn the truth about the activities of governments and corporations, about the quality or value of products, or about the health of one's own place and economy.
In such a society, also, our private economies will depend less upon the private ownership of real, usable property, and more upon property that is institutional and abstract, beyond individual control, such as money, insurance policies, certificates of deposit, stocks, etc. And as our private economies become more abstract, the mutual, free helps and pleasures of family and community life will be supplanted by a kind of displaced citizenship and by commerce with impersonal and self-interested suppliers...
The great enemy of freedom is the alignment of political power with wealth. This alignment destroys the commonwealth - that is, the natural wealth of localities and the local economies of household, neighborhood, and community - and so destroys democracy, of which the commonwealth is the foundation and practical means.” - Wendell Berry
 
InMotion
#5 Posted : 4/20/2013 1:45:36 PM
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Something tells me an RC vendor will not go through the trouble to find a sample that fluoresces in that wave-length to dirty up their product with because a couple people on DMT-nexus built cheap fluorimeters. Could be wrong though.

A basic UV test can give someone an idea of what their compound is. That's essentially what a UV lamp on a TLC plate is. There are some draw-backs though, such as concentrations can provide, to the eye, different colors.


Back to the design, The Day Tripper I know very little about fiber optics so I'm not sure what you're saying? You mean diffract the light then put differing wavelengths of LEDs to move in a straight line in the diffraction spectra for a read out? It's not a bad idea or anything but that would be a huge undertaking. Servo's with that degree of accuracy don't come cheaply to my knowledge. I have seen UV-VIS from I believe the 70's or 80's that worked on a similar principle but were hand moved via I believe a worm gear. That degree of calibration would probably be quiet painful. At that point one might as well buy a photomultiplier as decent UV LED's or laser diodes are expensive(>100$USD) and even still they tend to have 15nm or greater broadband. Or a photodiode array. Not sure how decent they are with a reverse bias. It's a good idea though.

The idea here is to build a simple device only capable for say one common compound and do it cheaply but still reliably. To build a full on fluorimeter of decent accuracy would requires several hundred of dollars, there's just no way around it. Decent diffraction gratings cost 70$USD a piece, two of them would be required. Also two highly accurate stepper motors(probably picomotors 2x ~200$USD iirc). Mounts probably a good 200$USD. Photomultiplier(assuming one doesn't get wrecked in calibration/tinkering) about 70-200$ USD depending on used or new. High-voltage(500V) power supply probably what 40-50$? Quartz cuvette 30-60$USD. Brain would probably need to be a nice arduino with a computer for data processing. Some lenses and mirrors. Then the light source and enclosure. A UV-VIS would be cheaper to build at this point because it only uses one monochromator/diffraction grating component rather then two.

Over-all, I don't want this to be an esoteric thought adventure. Where maybe one person will drop 500$ in parts try it and maybe get good results. I want this to be "TEK"-able. Maybe a simple kit could be made so people don't have to scrounge the internet for hours looking for parts. Meaning people could order cheap parts, read through a TEK, turn on a solder gun and build it in a half hour. Then whenever they used the device they would get good consistent results. If we could get a decent ball-park where someone could say dissolve a quarter of a tab of suspected LSD into a small sample with some NaOH and get a YES, or a NO read-out that would be ideal.

A cheap way to get around monochromators would be to use simple light filters. This may be viable. That's how the design in the article worked. Though they make little to no mention of what kind of filters they used I don't think it would be hard to put together. Get a blue filter, a green, filter, and a red filter(might not be necessary). The cuvette would shield from UV-B and UV-C range radiation so only UV-A would be emitted. 323nm and 325nm should be included in that. Any light could then be used if it had decent emission in the 300-400nm range. The filters would likely cost very little.

Reverse biasing a 502nm LED would likely lead to say 494-508 nm detection range where it would be most sensitive at 502nm. This LED would cost around 2$USD for likely several. Yes 502nm LED's exist and are commercially available.

An arduino could be used but a microammeter would likely work as well. Sheesh even an LED could probably used just saying "LSD" and when it turns on there is LSD and when it doesn't there isn't, lol.

I'm sure a lot of other organic compounds also fluoresce from this UV-A excitation source. So perhaps it could be easily adjusted for say "dialkyltryptamines", or "nbomes" by using a different LED detector.
 
Cotyledon
#6 Posted : 4/20/2013 2:04:16 PM

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Great find with the multi-wavelength emitters Day Tripper.

This piqued my interest because it sounds reasonably doable from a programming standpoint. I don't know much about flourimiters/spectroscopy but programming and circuit design is something I'm pretty good at.

Unfortunately their UVCLEAN line of LEDs that the multi-wavelength LEDs are sold under are really only available as a customized product and probably insanely expensive.

Even the single wavelength DeepUV LEDs in their UVTOP line that are readily available run between $60-$300 each
http://www.qphotonics.com/home.php?cat=52
http://www.cardonalabs.com/PriceList_UV_LEDs.pdf

I've found a couple, possibly cheaper sources for LEDs in the 275-315nm range used in sterilization applications but they still require a quote so they might end up being pricey anyway or difficult to work with being from different manufacturers..

What would the most appealing wavelengths be? I'm guessing whatever corresponds to DMT, 5-MeO-DMT, Gramine, NMT, Harmaline, and Harmine.

 
InMotion
#7 Posted : 4/20/2013 2:16:34 PM
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Mithrandiir42 I take it you did not read my third post? No need for programming. Also the design daytripper mention as I said is not ideal by any means...

Also the emission source should not be an LED. It should be a xenon or mercury lamp.

Perhaps a germicidal lamp. What is needed is a broad emission from the UV-A line.

UV LED's tend to be expensive for specific peak wavelengths. It's better to go broad just to excite anything in that wavelength then use a selective LED to capture a specific fluorescence peak.
 
Cotyledon
#8 Posted : 4/20/2013 8:27:44 PM

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InMotion, you are correct. I think you posted as I was typing my own response. Please disregard my post. I see what you're saying about using a broad spectrum light sourceSmile
 
InMotion
#9 Posted : 4/20/2013 11:31:02 PM
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So I drew up a very basic diagram of what this thing would look like. I'll work on a wiring schematic later tonight when I finish my homework and have some time.

The blue circle is the light source
The green bloby thing is the LED
the white square is the cuvette
there is an on switch, and the little read out idea.
The white rectangle is a mirror to aid in reflecting the emitted light to the detector.

A lense for focusing the light to the LED might be needed but I'm not sure.

The colored rectangles are the filters. The light blue one is supposed to be green could of swore I made it green but whatever lol sometimes colors flip on me.
InMotion attached the following image(s):
simple schematic.png (18kb) downloaded 66 time(s).
 
The Day Tripper
#10 Posted : 4/21/2013 1:06:09 AM

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Yeah i was just thinking out loud there, after doing a few hours of googling, i learned a bit about the principles involved, and how the main idea i proposed is in no way ideal, or possibly even practical.

But, given the cost of readymade uv spectrometers/flourometers, and the inaccesability of hlpc, even the cheapest options, i think a diy approach to the concept might be something worth looking into.

Out with the uv led idea, except perhaps the exception of a multi-wavelength array to give you the full spectrum of uv. But thats a digital solution, where ideally you'd want a linear or "analog" uv source. You can add resolution by different nm leds in an array, but i think you'd want a light source that is not only very stable and well designed, especially in how its powered, and not the focused and exclusive light source in terms of wavelength led's provide. to give you any degree of accuracy.

I havent really searched much in that regard, but did do a bit of googling on photodiode sensors, particularly the ones that read the full spectrum of uv light. In lieu of a mechanical swithing mechanism to move the sample between invivdually unique diodes of fixed wavelength. They are in no means cheap (the photodiode sensors), but i think you might be able to find something for around $100 or so.

If its possible to build a uv flourometer or spectrometer for under $200 in parts, i'd take a crack at it no doubt.

I think the main factors you'd have to consider in such a device are-

1)- Power source, and how clean and stable that is. Otherwise AC jitter from a smps, might distort your readings. For all parts involved that need power. Most importantly your uv source. Either pre made, or using low-pass/other filtering circuits, as well as voltage regulation to ensure accuracy.

2)- Light source, and most importantly its UV specrum. LED's don't seem like a good idea unless you want to solder a array of different wavelength diodes together, one for each nm of uv in the spectrum. Once again, haven't looked to closely into what that might be.

3)- diode sensors, amplification circuits to read the output (if necessary), and how you want to read that data. My thinking is an arduino would be your best bet here. Simply because you can program it to process that raw input and factor in unforseen variables if necessary. Also with a bit of coding, you could have it output the data on a lcd as a function of uv flourescene of the sample in terms of wavelength. But to start, a simple voltage/current analog system would be easy to work with.

4)- Practicality, and if its even possible to make a device, without interference from the multitude of factors that could skew your readings, like power source jitter, airborne particulate, dust, the medium you would have your sample in, etc. How sterile does it have to be in simple terms.

5)- Saftey. If your working with UV light sources, particulary 1000mw+ sources, you have to be aware of the potential for optical damage, and other skin/health concerns. Just something to think about if you want to try and work out a "tekable" design, that people who might not know in complex terms what is going on might undertake as a project.

I would spend up to $200, not including the arduino i already have, to try and diy something, but its only an idea in my head atm. I've learned from past expirence in diy electronics, don't buy anything until you have a plan that you've run by people more knowledgable than yourself in the subject matter.

Alot more compelx than i assumed in my intitial post. It might be useful, to know what range of light the substances in question flouresce under, particulary psychoactives/psychadelics/etc and go from there.

The multi resolution diodes needed for such a device are not cheap, and the main thing to look into here i think. Otherwise you will need a bunch of diodes to read different wavelengths, and the economy of scale will inhibit design of a device not exclusively tied to a particular wavelength of uv. Theres alot of sensor diodes worth looking into, anything readymade is probably going to be too expensive for me. Might as well just buy a used flourometer/spectrometer off ebay/etc at that point, hence my $200 price ceiling.

"let those who have talked to the elves, find each other and band together" -TMK

In a society in which nearly everybody is dominated by somebody else's mind or by a disembodied mind, it becomes increasingly difficult to learn the truth about the activities of governments and corporations, about the quality or value of products, or about the health of one's own place and economy.
In such a society, also, our private economies will depend less upon the private ownership of real, usable property, and more upon property that is institutional and abstract, beyond individual control, such as money, insurance policies, certificates of deposit, stocks, etc. And as our private economies become more abstract, the mutual, free helps and pleasures of family and community life will be supplanted by a kind of displaced citizenship and by commerce with impersonal and self-interested suppliers...
The great enemy of freedom is the alignment of political power with wealth. This alignment destroys the commonwealth - that is, the natural wealth of localities and the local economies of household, neighborhood, and community - and so destroys democracy, of which the commonwealth is the foundation and practical means.” - Wendell Berry
 
InMotion
#11 Posted : 4/21/2013 1:24:31 AM
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Yea I hear what you're saying loud and clear. Like I said a full design for a fluorimeter of uv-vis from scratch would be fun but not really practical. It could be done but it would be more expensive then buying a used surplus model.

However, I was curious about what you thought about my simple design. I specifically made it to detect LSD so people could have some safety there. So many whack blotters out there these days. Colorimetric reagents work but it would be cool to have a little device for it. It might also be able to ball-park concentration with some basic calibration which would be awesome.
 
The Day Tripper
#12 Posted : 4/21/2013 3:30:40 AM

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Yeah, a custom designed specialized device, using minimal ecomonic components just to test lsd blotters, thats the first step here, and an awesome idea i might add.

IF your just interested in a few wavelengths, IE what lsd flouresces under, and possibly a few other for common knockoff rc blotters, single nm sensors, and single nm detector photodiodes, i can see that as a posssibility for sure. Not easy, but it would provide not only a valuable hr tool, but contribute to the possiblity of a variable wavelength flourometer/spectrometer as a proof of concept.

Mabey the ideal solution, would be buying modular diodes of the same wavelength, one ea for the emitter/detector, and swap out these modules for whatever you are testing for. At least it would tell IF something had lsd in it, to find out what that is, you'd need a lot of modules, or a more complex multi-nm system to account for the economy of scale.

Lets get the correct nm values for the isomers of lsd, a few possible rc knockoffs. and just try a simple setup like that. I'll test a design of my own or another if i feel it has a chance of working, and is sub $50. Which is entirely in the realm of possibility.

Single nm uv diodes, and the hardware/electronics to build that is a good starting point.

I tend to overthink things at times, and get ahead of myself. Your idea is sound as a first step, and i'll test/help in any way i can since i'd someday like to build a variable flourometer, and well, babysteps..Thumbs up

"let those who have talked to the elves, find each other and band together" -TMK

In a society in which nearly everybody is dominated by somebody else's mind or by a disembodied mind, it becomes increasingly difficult to learn the truth about the activities of governments and corporations, about the quality or value of products, or about the health of one's own place and economy.
In such a society, also, our private economies will depend less upon the private ownership of real, usable property, and more upon property that is institutional and abstract, beyond individual control, such as money, insurance policies, certificates of deposit, stocks, etc. And as our private economies become more abstract, the mutual, free helps and pleasures of family and community life will be supplanted by a kind of displaced citizenship and by commerce with impersonal and self-interested suppliers...
The great enemy of freedom is the alignment of political power with wealth. This alignment destroys the commonwealth - that is, the natural wealth of localities and the local economies of household, neighborhood, and community - and so destroys democracy, of which the commonwealth is the foundation and practical means.” - Wendell Berry
 
 
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