confrontation of ideas isn't conflict for me

I shared my notions and was challenged on them and have no problem with that and there was also much agreement, something I have no problem with.

Here is what Rising Spirit disagreed with so very much:


All is one is, for me, a good starting point, but is worthless by itself.
It is no more important than the other two parts to the system, division and consciousness.

It ties directly into the topic, that psychedelics do not for me or many I know act as spiritual agents unto0 and by themselves.

I have given DMT to many people, who broke through, but not one of them reported a spiritual experience. Not one of them found any form of enlightenment or evolution of spirit. My point initially still stands for me, that the use of spiritual methods when using psychedelics is greatly beneficial.

I am pretty sure that i have broken through and i understand why people say they are interacting with the unified field (good description). But, as the effects wain, i start to wonder whether it was because i was in a highly suggestible state due to the consumption of the DMT and that i was turning various subconscious thoughts into a complex hallucinatory world that seems to get more bizarre and self perpetuating when it gains in intensity as i let myself go.
At the time of, and for a while after, i am almost convinced of the verity of what i just saw/felt, and my initial translation of occurrences make my mind boggle . But as the intensity of the experience fades i tend to change my thoughts on what happened. Which leads me to the questions, is my interpretation correct when i am tripping? Or after, when i am in my baseline state? If i tripped more would i have a different view of what was going on, or would i become a deluded triphead? Does it actually matter if i do become a deluded triphead as long as i am happy?
I am not sure that psychedelics tell me anything about spirituality but i do find them useful for presenting possibilities and i find it enjoyably self indulgent to mull these things over.

Wisdom and education seem very distinct to me.
The wise people I know ask questions and learn daily, no matter their age.

I see him as asking a question immediately in relation to that observation about how it was the case that the apple fell.




I agree, but also think that means that even the conception of great mysteries can be deeply flawed.

I disagree, experience does not equate to understanding, for example you raise newtons apple and gravity, we all experience gravity but not one of us understands it, from experience or observation, but if we ask the right questions perhaps at some point we will. If all we do is experience and observe without questions we can learn nothing. Moreover if we do not question challenge and confront observations, ideas and concepts we cannot learn and inevitably either take them for granted or are totally misled by our observations.

That you could divide those is strange to me.


Science is a method of testing hypothesis, which involves questions, the observation cannot proceed without this. Consider that in this thread you have two people who disagree who have performed the same experiments and observed different results. Including in terms of replication.

I do not agree that on a topic like this that the answers can only be learned from true observation, all data must after all be interpreted, this requires questions and a system of thought for the interpretation of data, likewise what of falsification? It is also very important to science, if someone say that you take DMT for example and that you will feel one with the universe or have a profound spiritual experience, that is hypothesis, a prediction, and if you test it using many people and your5self and it does not withstand such testing, it must be rejected.



As much connected as it is separated. Unity is matched by diversity, division, to say that unity is more important, or division is, is entirely missing the point. Any concept of profound unity on some levels is due to the existence of profound separation as well, and the reverse is also true.



The flower is also separate from the plant in ways. The roots separate from the earth, for this reason the plant grows and flowers. The division allows this as much as the unity.
But if you note, I agreed early on that all is one, that was never in question. It isn't worth defending as a concept, we all agree that it is, but disagree on how to use it.


I have no idea what you are talking about.
we are all as much one as we are divided and distinct, as for reality, it is objective enough that apples fall and flowers grow, human determination does not change this, ergo it is not very subjective, reality that is, while opinions certainly are.

If you preach your deluision as truth and when challenged on it say you don't like arugments, all points of view are equally valid and then defend your view with a "only those worthy can see I am right" method then maybe the unity becomes a problem as that you can mislead and delude others.

If you want to use your influence to make the world a better place (through action more than conversation) then yes it does matter.

Amen.


I have had profound spiritual experiences, including oneness, using various methods, but not on psychedelics per say, I have used the same methods sober with the same result and used them with psychedelics with the same result, but it was not the psychedelics but the methods themselves which worked. I much prefer using psychedelics for other specific work and using the spiritual methods sober.

I have broken through on many psychedelics, fungi, DMT, mescaline, LSD, etc. I have shared and taken these things with hundreds of people over almost 20 years. I cannot say i see psychedelics as innately spiritual or preventing spirituality.

I"d like to add that i don"t think that my re-uptake of psychedelics has led to me being a better or more spiritual person but are more of a result of me being more comfortable with myself.

my relation to psychedelics has definatly made me a more spiritualy focused person..and I would also say I am a more integrated me because of it.

To be honest I dissagree with a lot of what is said here. I think that one things that psychedelics DO do is open people up to something people call "spirituality" more consistantly than other methods..just based on my own observations. Nothing is 100% and of course work has to be invovled to make any use of it.

The fact that in a proper theraputic context psychedelics work with a better success rate than any other methods known for treating alcoholosim, anxiety surrounding death, PTSD etc just seems to be good reason to assume these things work the best. You can argue that has nothing to do with the spirit but I would entirelty disagree.

I think I disagree with your whole take on "spirit" Albert..no offence.. I guess we see this from different angles.

Hey folks,
I feel a tad awkward about re-entering this discussion, as I had been such a total drama queen as to bid this thread goodbye... but it seems that I am very much, still an active part of the discussion and a few more thoughts have bubbled up. So, brace yourself for another looooooong wind blowing through town! And also, I'd like to thank all of the extremely kind people who have sent me recent private messages, in support of my ideas. I am sincerely touched by such thoughtfulness and do thank you all for your light.

And I do agree about us all being on the same spiritual level, in terms of our mutual co-evolution and our destined awakening to higher, more expanded, unordinary modes of experience. We are after all, a singular organism, with uncountable perceptual receptors and myriad vantage points. I would go even one step further and state that IMO, we are all the very same entity. I believe we all have an innate capacity to understand an Omniscient knowledge, which reveals to us directly, that our sentient existence is superimposed over the very same Field of Divine Mind which touches all souls. Each and every one of us are quite unique aspects of the Unified Field and are each, wholly that interconnection in all it's magnificence. Now is the time, this is the only moment.

We are of like symmetry, of which equally exists pristinely in our central core, a jewel of conscious-awarenesses. Indivisible Self keeps manifesting itself spontaneously, somehow dividing itself infinitely. Tis the very same vortex of being, dancing on uncountable stages, all at once beaming, in all times and places. The division only exists in it's changing appearances, witnessed by the isolated observer gazing through their own lens. Our collective mind includes multitudes of eyes/hearts/minds are seeing/feeling/thinking as much as we allow ourselves to perceive. Yes, I believe we are multifarious appearances of the same magikal energy, as if enters, inhabits & exits the scene of this seeming, material paradigm (or for that matter, any paradigm at all).

Granted, all of these eyes are seeing from a multiplicity of vantage points, within the kaleidoscopic flow of undifferentiated Brahman. Out of naught, blooms manifestation, in it's many diverse forms, yet of itself it remains unborn and forever a far reaching, absolute state of vibrant Spirit. Like the old Christian hymn sings triumphantly, "May the Spirit be unbroken, by and by Lord, by and by." And so it is wholly unbroken, from my tiny view. So, I do believe we all touch this flow with all that we interact with. Tao/God/Brahman/Spiritus is everywhere. Always has been, always will be unilaterally present, alive and most immanent... and we all can perceive of it's nature directly.

We are all the same quintessence of the Tao, this Eternal Way, for we are a flowing miracle, embodied in the flux of universal action. We are both, the one cause and the many effects of it's infinite beingness. Thus, we discover that we can open our minds and CONSCIOUSLY mesh our bodies, thoughts and hearts within the intangible pattern of this immense presence intentionally, without needing any hidden meanings to be decoded by others for us. Seeing is in fact, believing.

I believe that traditional initiations can and do facilitate a greater degree mindfulness but... secret initiations are not the REALITY, they are part of honored methods and particular lineages. I personally read the Tao's essential truth in galaxies of stars, in the babbling chapters written in a meandering mountain stream, flowing endlessly here and there. Witnessed as the sorrow in graveyards, hope in young faces, dancing bubbles in a glass of sugary soda pop.

It is beautiful, meaningful and inspiring to read Holy books, surely so. I read them if I am able to understand the language they are penned in. For myself, I don't feel that I need to be initiated and taught how to find the hidden meanings of the book, Tao Te Ching or any man-made books describing what is beyond any definitive description by conceptual mind. It's simply splendid and profound.

Such declarations strongly imply a hierarchy, a select few initiates holding a superior vantage point... and is exactly what Albert repeatedly accused me of! If we can't perceive of the Tao's flow in a foul, reeking sewer, or sense the presence in a pile of garbage rotting in the sunshine, we still have our eyes firmly closed to it's presence. Everyone can open their eyes, right? In my cosmology, there is no exclusivity nor secret society privy to opening ones own eyes. Awakening is simply seeing what is already here, now. Perhaps this is the only moment and time is an illusion?

I feel that the notion that we are here to cultivate internal awareness, and this simply means tuning our instrument through intention, is sweet and fine. When we touch our own deepest center, we touch the center of God. We effectively become attuned to such immanence of the Sacred Way, as it shimmers and hums beatifically within all that exists and likewise, within our own Godhead, itself an individualized point flickering within the boundless of the Light of the Omniself.

Some condescending remarks about how little I know of the Tao and the meaning inherent within the Tao Te Ching, do stand in stark contrast my simple take on how strait-forward and direct Lao Tzu's words actually were (as well as Chang Tzu's sublime sayings). Albert, you began your own superiority head-trip when you twice corrected me, when I was apparently quoting from the Hua Hu Ching, thinking it a quote from the Tao Te Ching.

Pulling rank is no sign of equanimity and internal cultivation but I accept you at your word. I honestly couldn't retrace just exactly where I got that quote from. It was reported to be from the Tao Te Ching in one of the Taoist forums online... but it may well have been represented incorrectly. If so, I stand corrected. OK?

So, who is playing the "Emperor's new cloths" card, by your repeated mention of secret Taoist initiations and stating as an absolute, that without the intervention a teacher to explain the shrouded esoteric meanings, ANYONE who so much as speaks the Chinese word "Tao" is dismissed as deluded or ignorant. I question this premise strongly. Furthermore, your attitude suggests exclusivity to a lineage you describe as "literal", thus those lacking the insider's club status are treated without the courtesy of harmonious "conduct and thought". Methinks that the pot be a calling the kettle all black and quite sooty at that???

But please, let's just bury the hatchet for now, shall we? I want to re-address your initial subject, as it is intriguing and worthwhile to explore further. A lot of folks agreed with your early remarks, myself included, and regardless of your predilection for argumentation, I believe we've yet to get to the nitty gritty of your fascinating thread.

I do understand the Tao in my own way. The teachings of Lao Tzu and Chang Tzu are not the Tao itself, obviously. They are gifts for anyone who wants to partake of their wisdom. We get what we do from their allegories, each in our own way. To suggest that there is only one way to view these poetic verses, is what I would label as delusional. I glean what I can from many lineages of spiritual thought. But any path is just a conceptual exercise if we do not experience it's essential nature directly. Spirit is a highly intangible thing to lock into any conceptual format.

And yeah, I do seem quote the speech of wise human beings, when I see a need to make reference to their insight. But I will pay more careful attention to what I quote. still, regardless of authorship, it is equally our shared insight and our birthright as consciously aware beings. While I maintain that they are universal ideas and If I draw parallels, that I am just echoing what generations upon generations of collective human understanding has celebrated as Oneness. Apparently my delivery must have some serious need of adjustment? I'll work on it, really.


Nature is a truly great teacher and shows us the harmony and balance, in all it's resplendent glory. I've gotta say that the revelation of Unity is my biggest inspiration. that being said, I never mistake the inspiration for the integration required to exist in earthly harmony. Most of the real training begins with both feet rooted to the ground, and I still honor Albert's first ideas. Internal cultivation follows our training our awareness to focus and create clear intention. And that's pretty cool information to share.

For the sake of our mutual faith in the worth of verbal communication, I would like to offer a few more points and hopefully, in so doing, I will begin by addressing the author of this dialog and conclude with some noteworthy acknowledgements and observations of our symmetry in practice... despite the back and forth thingy.

My initial "disagreement" honestly arose when the OP slammed Amygdala for his honest beliefs and more importantly, his direct experience. My objection wasn't to the OP's objections and rebuttal/challenges, rather, the delivery of his blunt message. I feel that on a very significant level, the OP is the host of his/her thread and the repliers are his/her guests. Call it my old fashioned head-trip? So, I don't appreciate my words being taken out of context and used against me, anymore than the next guy. It was to the presentation of intolerant disdain, in an effort towards creating polarity, that really irked me.

I thought the experience Amygdala shared was valuable beyond it's content, it was spoken directly from the heart and it takes courage to open up and let our love-light shine. I may have over-reacted? My older brother thought I had under-reacted, when he read the back and froth... but I want to find a way to help shift this thread to a more useful direction for all of us concerned. Pardon my behavior. While the OP feels it fine to denounce the validity of another's views and beliefs, he has very thin skin for an antagonistic persona. That being said, he is quite intelligent and his convictions are admirable.

Anyway, I challenged if Albert had had breakthrough experiences for one specific reason. He says so little about his psychedelic voyages, while he speaks volumes against those of his fellows who share theirs. Without any references offered for impartial discussions sake, I was just questioning if he has truly gotten beyond mind or not. Aggressive of mego? Yep, and sorry about that. Apparently, what is good for the goose, is not so good for the gander? (Hey, do I date myself with that metaphor?) But it was my lapse into poor behavior, sneaking out, in counter-attack and I am not happy about trading blow for blow.

Still, I am not so proud as to refuse to offer deep apologies to the OP and the other members of this discussion, as well as the many silent viewers. Let's respect one another and learn something from our differences in beliefs. Accept our subjective interpretations of what is of the Spirit and what is something else, altogether, with some admirable semblance of dignity. So, to return to the original theme here... Spritus, the very breath of God.




I agree wholeheartedly. We are free to see what we choose collectively term "normal reality", as the same as what we term, "Spirit". This may be delusional, it may be awakening to the one greatest truth. You decide.

It is my belief that all views are equally valid and that most likely, they are illusions we are dreaming, as existence has often been likened to a dream. Nothing New Age or "emperors new cloths" about such an analogy. It is a fundamental Taoist parable. We are encouraged to question everything, to question our own perception and acceptance of said ideas, as reality.


I do not feel that I am a Taoist. I study it's teaching because it is such wonderful stuff. I do not feel that I am a Yogi, Buddhist, Sufi, Gnostic, Advaitan, Zenist, etc... I am simply alive and wondering about my own existence. I don't propose a kind of New Age fusion/amalgam of ancient religious thought, as an admixed with some vague conception of quantum physics. Sure, that's my favorite cup of tea and I like the taste of it... but there are many teas (and many tongues tasting them). To think that there is only only path is complete lunacy.

BTW, I have always found it fascinating that the lives of Gautama Buddha, Mahavira, Lao Tzu, Confucius, Socrates and Plato all overlapped with one another's earthly existence. All personalities and cultural contexts aside, how unique each of their doctrines truly are! Different stroke for different folks.

I do identify my vision over any other, equally valid visions, cause I see things so. But I do try not to let my thoughts become too much the forefront of my awareness. Silence is golden, as they say. I began this process at birth and since a re-birthing of sorts, I now find myself with more questions than answers. Some mysteries are best kept mysteries. And I will emphatically declare, regardless of the deep meditative trance-states or transcendental psychedelic states, which I have experienced, I now have more questions than when I started to notice the self within, peeking out from behind my thoughts. It was the embrace of No Mind, that startled me out of my congested, mechanical thinking patterns.

Korean Seon, a Buddhist meditative practice, is essentially what is known as Zazen, in Japan. I do not feel that inter-phase within the whole of the Omniversal Field is "a good starting place". To what end? Your own preferred "method" my not be for everyone, everywhere. Nor is mine, nor those of that guy with the blue T-shirt walking by my house, as I type these words (whatever he believes or experiences). Outside of the time-space-continuum, there can be no sequential reality, thus, no beginnings or endings. It is said that the Way is it's own destination becoming, existing and departing.




Being is enough. Being is our journey and our purpose, if we need to find one. I am not at all deluded to the possibility than my epiphanies are merely another set of possibilities, mistaken by myself for truths. Or just my observations and impressions of what is beyond quantification, falling away like so many leaves in autumn. Neither do I feel like the proverbial monkey who grabs the brass ring and believes it owns the secret to the universe (himself opiated with religious self-complacency). To abandon one's critical thinking is always quite unwise. I think that joedirt's primary philosophical tenant is of immense value to many of us, psychonaut or regular joe alike.

"Believe Nothing. Allow Anything. Question Everything."

I must remember to apply this mantra to my belief system on a regular basis! I do use some terms from the world's spiritual traditions because their doctrines are reflected in my experiences. But ultimately (allegorically speaking, as we all know there are no ultimates, each paradigm is superseded by the next, more expanded paradigm, as John C. Lilly so eloquently states)... we stand alone and must decide for our own selves. The "we are one" idea is as much about self discovery as it is about self-dissolution. There are a lot of intriguing angles to see this from.

IMO, to admire the notion that we are all interconnected aspects of a singular, universal force, which manifests in myriad ways, throughout multiple dimensions, is not the sign of an immature spirituality or some fuzzy ineptness. It's a celebration. Immersion is it's own reward and it's fun to share the vibe. Love is the buzz

Initiation is valid for many people. But it is not a constant or a requirement to See the Sacred in the ordinary. I have been initiated into Kriya Yoga, Integral Yoga, Surat Shabd Yoga and Sufism. Initiation has been key to my practices but pales compared to immersion into the Light. Secret rituals are valid and all but please don't try and claim superior understanding because of your own initiation, instructor and personal sadhana. I challenge who is being elitist here? Again, I see the Tao Te Ching as a very strait-on, point-blank book of universal teachings. So, who is being tailor to the aforementioned "king's new cloths"?

Who can be so arrogant as to judge another's experience (and I have to ask myself the same question all the time)? We are all pilgrims on the great road. I have stated before, I do find conflict oriented discussions unpleasant. It's not the opposing perspective at all, it is the form of delivery. The insults, the debasement, the unabashed aggression for aggressions own sake, which is specifically the "disagreement" I have raised. Sure, my ego gets in the way all of the time. We all share this trait as humanoids.

People all birth their vision of The Way of Things, from the lens of their own subjective thought process and psychological state. Our impressions are no the reality, surely, but we have this innate need to compare notes and discuss the details of our experiences. There are no absolutes nor any authorities here. The very fact of our existence as individuals, connected by our mutual interactions, can be viewed as miraculous or not miraculous.

I just think that it is from my windowsill, a beautiful view, an inspired way to live. When I am feeling and thinking in the most harmonious and centered way that I know, it's as if each beat of my hearts drums along to the music of the spheres. As if the normal mode of human experience is eclipsed with a whole other, holistic frequency of being. Shifting the attention of the mind to the effulgent Grid, and in so doing, we accelerate the bloom of our awakening. One experience spontaneously perpetuates the next.

Sometimes I think I understand the Tao when I think about such things. Often, I suspect that Lao Tzu is most correct, it cannot be wholly contained in one's thoughts. I feel the Tao when I stop thinking about the Tao. It feels alive inside and outside of me. It feels present her and now, but I couldn't ever define what it is. Generations of Taoist thought states that The Way is eternally flowing and forever changing.

Wow.
What a long strange trip it's been these last 5 pages.


I hardly know where to begin. One thing that I find strange throughout all of these posts is that the word God has come up so seldom!
I think too many times we tend to be so verbiose in trying to describe experiences that that cannot be described in any human language. One thing that is common among all groups of people is their belief in a God. Why is this?
I find it very strange actually...... I like to envision that people long-ago found their respective entheogens around the world-whichled to shaman like experiences forming ideas of God.... and maybe even language.
But if entheogen's lead to the discovery of God- why doesn't everyone have the same experiences as Albert so logically points out?
Trust me I ask myself this question all the time.
When I first used DMT back in 2007 my initial experiences were amazing visions of strange places with iridescenct gears, symbols, machines and awesome beauty many of us have seen.
I was so amazed and in awe!
I thought "There's nothing that can be better than this!"
My journal entries at that time had terms like "Oh my GOD!!!!! THIS IS IT!"
But after seven or eight wonderful voyages similar to the first...... something happened.

After a particularly heroic dose I found myself experiencing ego death. I thought I had OD'd and was dead. Luckily the dosage was strong enough that I seem to blast right through this ego death....I was on my knees with my mouth hanging open.... tears streaming down my face with eyes bugged out.and the next thing I knew.......

I was God.

Not "one with the universe"
not "seeing God"
"not talking to God"

I was God. pure and simple. no doubt. most obvious thing ever.

Full-blown "God Realization".

The most concrete thing I ever have experienced in this human lifetime.

I read of many people- especially non-psychedelic users who are into meditation- spending years of their life trying to reach awakening or Enlightenment. Thet may assume that a particular state that they have attained in their meditation is enlightenment, or kind of an awakening.

Well Wrong.

IF and WHEN God realization happens- there is absolutely positively not one shred of doubt exactly what has happened.
I don't like to call my experiences enlightenment because to me that entails someone who can hold God realization on a daily basis w/o entheogens.

To my utter disappointment when I came out of my "trip" I found myself sucked back into the normal me. BUT I was definitely never the same after that moment. Since then I have "been God" many times but I find myself going there less and less as time goes by. The pullback into "normal reality" is a real bitch.
I read So much about how we are supposed to strive to "be happy in the moment" and "focus on the now". Don't be attached to certain states of mind!
But it's kind of hard not to be after you've gone that far. A big question I have (along with Albert) is Why doesn't this happen to everybody?????

We all have the same brains! If it's not just people bullshitting then we should be able to replicate this experience in the laboratory all the time and obviously that's not the case.(See The Spirit Molecule)
I have no clue why God realization using psychedelics doesn't happen to everybody.
Maybe a particular brain is a little bit different. That doesn't make me a better person than someone who has not achieved "God mode"..... maybe it's just a short circuit in the brain.

after this happened to me I spent months (hell years) researching & digging through a million different trip reports on any of the psychedelic websites trying to Find answers.

Trying to find others who had this happen to them.

I hate to say that it was not a very fruitful search. Apparently this might happen to one in 500-1,000 people. so naturally the 999 others are going to cry bullshit!

I Really can't blame them..... if this had not happened to me personally I would've been waiving the bullshit flag just as hard as anybody else. The fact remains that it did happen to me and it has happened to other people!
Rising Spirit being one.

Albert is right in an early assumption that people who have had this happen all tend to sound the same as one just copying another. Maybe. Sometimes. But maybe not.

Maybe the experience is so similar when it actually happens that we do tend to sound like parrots. I know in the six years since it happened to me I've been in many online discussions with people waving the bullshit flag.
I can't blame them.... I don't blame Albert. Until it is a personal experience one should be a doubting Thomas.

If you believed everything people say- you probably end up stuck in mainstream religion.
Sorry to be long winded but for those of you who don't know me from long-ago posts I wanted to let people know that yes I'm one of those crazy fuckers that claims God realization.

Now that that's on the table I like to respond to a couple of Albert's presumptions or arguments that he has made in the thread. Obviously the man is highly intelligent and extremely logical. The reference to Mr. Spock was spot on!
But even Mr. Spock had some Vulcan spirituality....

I have a good friend of mine who I've known for years and years that Albert reminds me of. Super super intelligent and super super logical- but he doesn't have but a couple of friends. The main reason is most people think he's a douche-bag. He tends to talk over people's heads and not let them get a word in edgewise. He has kept me on the phone for six hours at a time and 90+ percent of the conversation was his. It seems he is hardwired to only except his own presumptions and not very open to other peoples. This Does not make him a bad person- if I was in trouble and called him for help he be there in five minutes.

I consider him a very good friend he's just not a people person and I suppose there's no law against that.
Albert asks what is the point to experience "oneness"? I have a problem with that word......because with me it's not "being one with everything"....it's BEING GOD.

If one does reach the "holy Grail" of God realization then what?

Well.... unless you're someone like Christ or Buddha, you to suck back into the sticky heavy dense reality we find ourselves in on a daily basis. The Glory and Awe and Wonder fades.
I would guess that some people go crazy or end up in the psych ward..... I would think that some people would commit suicide.

I mean why bother with this shit existence?

When you know in every fiber of your being that you are God.... if you're not happy with whatever bullshit you're going through why not just end it all?

I know I had those thoughts but love of my family keeps me on the planet.
So the Pandora's box of awakening is integrating that back into daily experienc-e which can be a bitch.

The upside is You definitely lose the fear of death!
You know who you really are and even the bullshit you go through every day tends to become a game.
The search is over. All you can do is live the rest of your life trying to have fun and be good to people.
I tend not to buy the argument that we should not value positive experiences more than we do negative.... It might make sense in the Tao viewpoint but I prefer positive more than I do negative. And trust me there's nothing more fun or positive than realizing that you are God!
What are we? Why are we here?
I'll tell you what we are. We are pieces of the God hologram. If you're familiar with the hologram you might know that it can be cut into many pieces and each piece will show the whole image.....albeit at a lower resolution... but still the whole image.
So even though we might not be a big enough piece to do miracles?- we definitely can be a big enough piece to know who and what we really are.

Another neat thing with the hologram is that in order for it to work it needs to be illuminated by a certain frequency of light- usually a coherent laser. I consider entheogens to be the laser to "illuminate" the God Hologram. And sometimes if the frequency of that laser is just right- it could lead to God realization in that little fragment of God.

I can understand Albert's allegory of the "emperor's new clothes" when only one in 1000 seekers claim to experience Awakening. it's awfully easy to waive the bullshit flag. But that does not make those awakenings any less real to the people that they happen to. It's not a matter of wanting to be "holier than thou"!
I didn't ask for this to happen and I think that most awakenings are totally a surprise to the soul that goes through them.

Albert mentions that the euphoria state linked to oneness is something that he's intimately familiar with. Well I don't know about that......Even Mr. Spock would be challenged to keep a straight face after a true "break Through" experience. Maybe Albert needs to SMOKE MOAR.

Finding "oneness" in your meditation is not the same as God realization. Since Albert goes on and on about achieving oneness in his meditation and that it's really a worthless state and not enlightening in the least tells me he has little bit farther to go.

Albert tries at length to use logic to dismantle the most important experience in someone's life! This goes beyond being argumentative into the realm of calling people liars. No wonder feathers get ruffled. It's like letting a pig pee on Mohammed.

Albert mentions giving DMT to many people and none of them having a spiritual experience????

Does anyone else find that a little hard to swallow? Maybe it's a matter of definition of "spiritual", but anyone that I've ever known to use DMT properly comes back more spiritual...if spiritual can be defined as "knowing I have a spirit", that's for sure.

One thing Albert says that really raises my red flag is "I am pretty sure that I have broken through"......either you have or you haven't if you're not sure- increase the dosage.

Albert you would make a great scientist and I can appreciate and applaud your intelligence, objectivity and scientific method. But God realization is not something that you're going to be able to test in the laboratory. And for you to state that oneness must be rejected if it can't be proven in the laboratory goes against most spiritual teachings that I've ever known of. That's like trying to prove God exists in the laboratory....

Wait- do you even believe in God?

I rarely get involved in threads like these because of the negative responses. It's like a no man's land. I sometimes feel alone in my experiences. I guess the lesson here for those who are caught in the throes of enlightenment transition is self trust. Trusting one's inner knowingness against all odds despite all resistance from others- irrespective of the price in material terms that one may have to pay for the privilege. But the result is truly priceless. And though one often experiences the sense of the unknown in the pit of one stomach there's also the feeling that somehow it will all work out. For unbeknownst to you many are having the identical experience, in terms of life lesson integration, with varying degrees of discomfort. In the final analysis each of you will eventually step forward in his newfound skin and realize that a metamorphosis has taken place. And that what was really there underlying it all that time is You. The real One.

Sorry for rambling- home after a double shift and need sleep.

Namaste to all my old and new friends-

-Boypony

Holy Moly...
That was a helluva post...I was compelled to read it twice.

Stay Gold BoyPony...

I agree with Cyb, that was a nice piece of input BoyPony. But i think the above statement about breaking through came from me, and i am the kind of guy who would say he was pretty sure about having two hands and a black cat . (jeez i"m even saying that i think the above statement is me ,when i know it was me!)

BoyPony you hit the nail on the head and you are not alone.

I am also in this camp that there is no debating a godhead breakthrough.
You don't come back from this state and say, "Gosh was that a break through?" HELL NO.

When it happens to you and you find yourself literrally among the farthest reaches of stars dancing with cosmic dust on the fringe of the universe. When your conscious awareness snaps past the edge of the milky way on the way to deep space you just know. There is no you, yet there is an awareness, but there is no thought of school, jobs, marriage, friends, things like this. You become all of it. There is no denying it what-so-ever.

Now why don't more people have these experiences? I don't know. Perhaps it relates to garbage in garbage out... Meaning these drugs expand your state of mind. Psychedelics are a mirror to your soul. Spend your day's watching reality TV then you can't expect to have a Godhead moment, though sometimes people do. It's Holy. treat it as such....my words take them or leave them. But to me this state is the Holy of Holies. I don't even consider trying to reach it without a lot of preparation.

I have had two godhead experiences and both have utterly transformed my life in every conceivable way. I mean the first time I came out of the "light" (Yeah that sounds cliche, but when I find better words I'll update you! lol) with tears running down my face, filled with complete rapture for all of creation and gods divine glory...man when that happened it took over a week for me to piece things back together. I can't walk past a tree today without acknowledging my brother. Hippy tree hugger? Yeah I suppose so. I can also sit down in the grass and feel myself sway in the wind as ants crawl across my blades...oh wait, I mean crawl across the grasses blades.

I will NEVER be quite the same again and I pretty much never feel the need to dive that far down the rabbit hole now. Hell if I never experienced these deep psychedelic states again in this life I suspect that I will still be spiritual the day I die. You can't just put this Geni back in the box. There is no going back to sleep after you drink a pot of coffee....you just end up pissing divine joy. lol

Once you hit God realization, or self realization or whatever it is you move past the intellectualizing and into knowing. It is as simple as that. I say this as an intellectual with a PhD. It just blows past anything you will ever learn in a book or a class room. It's all totally subjective, and yet you know in those moments that there is only subjective. It's all subjective and it's all relative. I have no need to prove it to anyone because I know the truth in these words: Seek and ye shall find. Those that sincerely seek these states out will have no choice but stumble into them. These experiences aren't just random noise anymore than every day reality...you know the reality dominated by serotonin, dopamin, norepinephrine, GABA, etc... these brain chemicals are filters to perception. You are not the filter and you are not the perception. You are the experience..and yet these words just sound like rambling mumbo jumbo.

I would have scoffed at a description like this just a few short years ago. Probably ridiculed the person claiming this nonsensical bullshit...and yet here I am today fully comfortable in my own shell about it. Call it God, Nirvana, the void, who cares it's not like your words, or my words, or any words will ever do anything to bing a truthful description to the state. The best we could really hope to do is say what this state is not. This state is not related to EGO in any way what-so-ever. If you still have thoughts of me, mine, or I, then I assure you that you have not experienced this. You can't be a self and one with the universe at the same time. It's not possible, but you can come back from oneness and have memories of it with a self. Damn it. <--- that will make sense once you come back with the memories.

Albert I have one very simple piece of advice: Seek until you find brother.

Rising Spirit you have had many great posts.



Sounds like a great title for a book!

Bravo JD.
Welcome to the crazy club.
Now all we have to do is remain insane till this particular Journey ends.
It really helps to have other whack jobs to talk to.

Namaste-
-BP

To BoyPony, Rising Spirit, and joedirt

CHEERS!

It's amazing once you experience this. Out of hundreds of journeys, this experience had only happened to me once. No buildup at all, literally as soon as i took in the entire dose, within 2 seconds I WAS GONE. Living countless lives; being shown that I was all these scenarios/people/places/etc, all while completely blinded by the intensity of this clear light that shown EVERYTHING that I was and am and will always be. Falling, flying, twisting, gyrating through INFINITE vantage points, people, places, things, EVERYTHING. This description doesn't even come close to describing it though, unfortunately. I remember after about 20 minutes I came back, crying intensely; tears of joy; tears of complete recognition.

Not to derail, but in the other thread about "hanging up the phone once you get the message", I had sayed that the message is always there, just not always clear and concise due to it's infinite nature and the infinite manifolds of it's being that are able to preceive it's presence (us). This is what I meant....THIS expeerience. TAT TVAM ASI. Of course, I will still partake in DMT and other psychs every so often, but this experience left me completely fufilled after it happened.

HERE IS NO QUESTIONING ONCE THIS HAPPENS....NONE. NO "IS THERE SPIRIT/GOD?" NONE OF THAT...IT STAYS WITH YOU FOREVER.

I have never had a godhead experience and it sounds very interesting but i was wondering whether it might be some sort of failsafe/survival mechanism that the brain employs after getting bombarded with too much information. Like a sort of mental overdose where the brain has two choices..1. become fried by the overdose or 2. just throw it"s metaphorical hands up in the air and go "i am God,everything is one" and words to that effect. Similar to when you go through a traumatic incident and the brain chooses to repress the memories.

people my internet connection is gone for sometime and i will not be able to offer any replies , there are many things i must add yet time will only make it happen

also great replies , Rising Spirit , BoyPony , joedirt , Tattvamasi , i am still yet to have the God experience ....yet looking forward to it .....very inspiring posts

also i corrected my quoting error Amygdala

there is one thing i would like to add now , Albert i favour observation above understanding , as all understanding with our human brain is just that human understanding which can be deeply flawed


exactly thus observation is always greater than understanding , as understanding something with our monkey brains makes no difference , rendering all questions null and void as all those questions are just very human and the answers are also applicable to us monkeys only , it makes no great difference to the universe whether we ask questions or not or what the answers mean to us ,

i believe the questioning process is inferior to direct observation , as the questioning process leads to thinking , even answers require a lot of thinking , i believe if one chooses to let go of understanding , one can cultivate the skill of observation to higher levels than our everyday conscioussness which is most of the time muddled with thoughts ,

its like the difference between clear water and dirty water , decide for yourself what you want to drink

its like trying to understand the dmt experience , i say lets just observe ,

its a personal opinion i guess , i choose observation over understanding as understanding something in monkey terms is just not good enough for me , i rather have total observation , if that leads to understanding good enough if not thats also fine by me as observation is more fun than trying to understand the un-understandable because the scale of the universe is just too large , we measure things in lightyears and so , diemensions , blackholes , wormholes and all that , i simply don't have the time to understand it all ......perhaps i can still observe it all atleast

i'll visit this thread in a week when my internet is back ......until then

peace everyone

I would not argue that this has nothing to do with spirit, and I do see psychedelics as doing thing nothing else can do, and having potentially positive effects. In therapeutic uses specific methods are used, which is what I have been saying, that the drugs by themselves aren't enough, one must use methods, in terms of treating PTSD and alcoholism, methods are employed.

But then people take psychedelics all the time without such positive therapeutic effects. Alcoholics take them and are still alcoholics etc.

No worries about disagreeing with my view of spirit, i've never had an issue with someone having a different opinion.

It doesn't matter how many people try to discredit me saying they had some awesome trip that made them see they are right and I need more...

Not one of you knows where I am at, what experiences I have had, or why I know what I do, you can assume I don't get it, because I have a different perspective, but has any of you questioned your own experience and understanding on these matters?

Jin, you write a lot dismissing questions and praising observations, you appear to not question yourself or your experiences, but can observations even be made without questions?

When you find a word you don't know, (I do all the time) do you not look it up? To do so is to question the meaning of the word, one cannot learn without questioning and observing.


To say that one is more important might be lacking balance, much like with unity, an emphasis upon unity over division, or the reverse, is imbalanced.

I don't like sharing or bragging about my psychedelic experiences much.


Rising Spirit, you said you have been reading the Tao since the late 70s, and quoted a passage not from it and said it was from it, but then you said you got it from a Tao forum, which leads me to understand that you are not entirely familiar with Tao, what it says and means etc. So now you admit you just copied it from a forum and didn't know where it came from, but had you been familiar with the Tao and Lao Tzu you would have known right away it was not in the Tao-DeJing. I think perhaps your example in this is evidence of my point here, you pass off material like Tao as if you understand it, but the evidence is that you don't, that is how it looks. It doesn't matter how many people praise you and agree with you, your command of the material and the concepts here demonstrates a lack of both education and experience in matters related directly to Tao.

I am not here to teach Tao, or to provide testimonials of my experiences and observations.
It is kind of like Math, if someone tells you that they intuit the answer, and you have the answers, and they are wrong, but they tell you that they are right for themselves, because that is how they see it (5+5=1034) and that there must be something wrong with you because you don't see that they are right for them... well I don't have to respect that position or agree with it.

Albert,
I retraced my steps and found the source of the quote and confess that I didn't notice the fine print beneath the larger print of the saying I cut and pasted. My bad. It was from Brian Walkem's translation of Hua Hu Ching (The Unknown Teachings of Lao Tzu). The quote is simply attributed to Lao Tzu. Now, this is proof positive that I am indeed mistaken and you are indeed correct. I humbly submit to your superiority, which is self-evident in the tone of your statements. Ouch!

I would guesstimate that I have read more than 1,000+ books on spiritual or metaphysical ideas, since the late 1970s, and then along came the Internet... so yeah, it gets to be a blur sometimes. I've down-sized my library to just under 500 books now. But I honestly never chose one book to study in depth enough to memorize it's content. The same goes for the Gita, Bible, Zend Avesta, Upanishads or Koran. So, I stand corrected. OK? Doesn't this please you on some level? Providing an opportunity to show that you know the Tao with a far superior depth? It gave you something to strongly object against and that ought to count for something.

So, you are absolutely correct, I am NOT a Taoist scholar or any other kind of scholar at all. But literal experience is not direct experience, period. So, who can truly say anything about another's experience, with any certainty? Actions speak louder than words and I believe that being challenging and dismissive are surely NOT signs of any internal cultivation. Please play nice. Do you feel that your behavior reflects greater clarity and wisdom? Kudos! Thus, you display an understanding of the Tao and myself, the lack therein? Well, I guess you are the expert.

I am too right-brained to follow the path of literal study, anyway. And I don't profess being a "Taoist" and I never did. I have only been a long time admirer of it's poetic verses, so pardon my error, dear Sir. I may actually be more of a Pantheist but I don't really like labels affixed to my spirituality. And as I am more of an experiential monkey than an intellectual one, maybe I should make fewer references to Holy books in general? I'll certainly step lightly around using the term "The Tao" in this thread. It seems to inflame you. Duly noted... and a good lesson in mindfulness.

But words spoken of and books written about the Tao are not the Tao, as Lao Tzu clearly states. Besides, studying the Tao Te Ching does not necessarily grant an awareness of the living presence of the Tao. And I am not saying that you don't perceive it directly without a book in hand, either. You are right, I don't know your experiences at all and you don't seem to share much... except your arguments and challenges about others proposed ideas and experiences.

I know The Way directly, in my own manner, despite your emphatic proclamations about literal interpretations being the only proof of one's knowledge of Tao/Spirit/God/Brahman. You seem so adamant and sure that allegorically, I am so poor in mathematics and am so ignorant, that I don't even know it. And you know my experiences? You cannot say I do not understand the Tao, based on your criteria.

But you are the Taoist, man, I am just a pilgrim along the Great Way, like everyone else here. I just don't want to get too far off topic with our banter, as your thread isn't specifically about Taoism. So why don't we return to the subject of your original post? Spirit and Psychedelics, a most fascinating area to explore a bit further.

I'd like to reconsider jamie's earlier reply.


Despite what I believe today, about practice and method, my first experiences with LSD (back in 1977), were something I didn't expect or even know was a possibility in human consciousness. Like jamie I had been doing meditation and cultivating a small modicum of internal focus.

But until I had a breakthrough experience, I had never encountered the depth of awareness that was facilitated by the magik of the molecule causing such an immense shift in perception and, as I am prone to reference, awaken to the living presence of some kind of oscillating field of supra-intelligence. I could only label it as being God, at that tender age... but I wasn't seeking the experience at all and I wasn't schooled in what was happening to me, metaphysically. It unfolded by itself.

Nor was I acquainted with or have any understanding of education, other than my training in Seon and Transcendental Meditation. I had never heard of kundalini, chakras or states of mind like nirvikalpa samadhi.

So for the sake of friendly discussion, how is it so, that some people have these kinds of spiritual breakthroughs on psychedelics, uninvited at that, and others do not? As AlbertKLloyd spoke of, with all of the people he has introduced DMT to, with no appreciable spiritual experiences encountered. Receptivity? Synergy to specific substance? Karma and/or destiny? Chance? LOl... any thoughts or speculative ideas on this phenomenon?

I will only speak for myself, but yes I absolutely question it. My beliefs are wide up revolving doors. If I find a higher truth, or a better way to relate to these experiences (or the world at large) then I'll toss the old beliefs aside like a piece of rotten meat.

At some point it really comes down to what you put your faith in. Science, as great as it is, really only serves to show just how little we actually do understand. When I stand back and look at the material world teaming with life all on it's own accord. I can't help but notice a living breathing planet with individual little cells some of which think they are in control of things. Man, to me, it's this simple. I am the energy that makes this body move and breathe. What else could I possible be? My body is composed of what I eat, drink, see, hear, smell, and think. I am connected to the trees all around me. When that pine tree outside exhales, I inhale. When I exhale, it inhales. Exactly how far out in front of me do I have to reach my hand before I touch space? What is space and what is hand? BTW What exactly owns the hand? Were is this so called self we all spend so much time looking after?

When you understand it like this there is no more birth and no more death. I am the universe. My ego very well got to have a birth and a death. Good for him. Glad he got his few moments of cosmic fame. The real me. The energy that the universe has embedded all of creation with does not die because it is never born. It just is. Perhaps there was a birth at the big bang, but honestly I highly doubt it. I think all effects require causes. Things don't just go bang and form universes with out a cause....

If that sounds egotistical then you completely misunderstood what I said. My words apply equally to everyone. But they are meaningless drivel to people who don't take time to cultivate the awareness of this existential truth. Lucky science is on our side here. Quantum entanglement guarantees everyone and everything is utter connected. All of it. Totally inclusive. Full and complete interconnectedness. Gotta love quantum entanglement. Welcome to the universal soup...and exactly how are you divided from us again? lol

What can I say. Life is awesome. Every single absurd detail of it is. Our ego's, and individual views, while interesting ultimately mean dick for the universe. AND THAT IS A GREAT THING.

And No. Psychedelics don't make a person spiritual. But they very well may tip a spiritually inclined person into a mystical experience. Then, however, the real work begins. Life is not psychedelic. Life is life. If we can learn to remove our pathetic egos from daily existence then life is away's just perfect. Only when we want to claim ownership of things and events do we find ourselves 'outside' of the Tao. Ego is not something that can ever grasp the tao. I don't care how many books, or how many grand spiritual teachers one talks to. If you don't understand how all things are connected then you don't understand the tao. If you think you have an intellectual understanding of the tao it is wrong because an ego is required for intellectual understanding. The tao is the universe exactly as it is...sans the stupid ego.


Peace