so what's the point of infinity? is it just an imaginary concept?
if everything you do/are is finite, what's the point of "enlightenment"?

and what is the expiration date of the universe?
what was the creation date?

I suspect that the message one gets in the end, is what is closest to the heart.

For those with a nature toward the unity behind all, will get the jewel behind the facets, an end station. The phone gets hung up.

For those with a nature toward the diversity create-able by the unity force, will get the game of facets, no end station. The phone keeps producing traffic.

Both are valid.

I think this is what I am doing. I'm still interested in psychedelics but there was this message that came in the form of anxiety causing hormones so It makes sense to not take them right now because the set and setting need tweaking.

Let me start out by saying WOW! I never expected so many answers from you guys! You certainly have given me a lot to think about. With that being said...

To clarify, when you said to continue to delve deeper and to just be are one and the same, that is what I was getting at. I have reached the point where this message (which seems like the "main" one, to me) has been violently shoved in my face for virtually every higher dosage trip. I have no doubt that this "main" message is only my "main" message because if I have learned anything from psychedelics, it is that they relate things from your own worldview. It is only your brain, after all. Coupled with the fact that I regularly began to meditate a couple years back, and it makes perfect sense. So, I am aware that there is certainly no main message. There could be no end to the amount of paradigm shifting messages psychedelics have to offer.

The real reason I have been wondering about this quote is because I have noticed a distance growing between me, family, and friends. The more I trip, the less I can relate to most other people. I am not so foolish to believe that this makes me or them better than anyone. I just am starting to feel isolated, in the sense that most of my interests don't coincide with theirs anymore. I absolutely love my life right now more than any point before, but social interactions with friends are starting to feel weird. I space out A LOT, and my HPPD is worsening, and my memory is getting unbelievably poor. Consequently, I am taking a much needed break. As of now, I am gonna take it easy for at least 3 months and just focus on eating and sleeping right, and plenty of meditation. That helps more than just about anything else.

But benzyme, that is the question that gives me more liberation and depression that anything else. To me, the point of infinity is to EXPERIENCE. You have "god" or "consciousness" or "om" or "energy" or whatever you want to call it, and you have nothing. Everything and nothing. Existing eternally outside of time and space. I think that this universe was created as an "escape" of sorts. Here on earth we have this overwhelming sense of separation, especially now in this digital age where half of our communication is done behind computers. Here on earth, we can enjoy the presence of chilling with our friends. We can feel loved by our family. We can love other people. Nothing in the universe is as pleasant as love. But the thing is, what is love without others to experience it with? I think "whateveryouwanttocallit" created this universe so parts of itself could experience this simulation, just for the sake of experiencing it. To distract itself from the empty void it occupies. Obviously, I am not sure of the end point, but I really think the big bang is a plausible theory. Without getting too off topic, I think that all of our actions, and even thoughts, are reactions from that initial bang. Free will is an illusion, in short. We, consciousness, are simply along for the ride, able to experience this crazy thing we call life on earth. All of its pain, but all of its pleasures as well, because you need both ends of the spectrum to perceive each as such. The point of infinity is to experience.

Ill stop rambling now. javascript:insertsmiley(' ','/forum/images/emoticons/blush.png'

the universe is all-inclusive, by definition. if the universe is finite, that means you are finite, as are your experiences.
but, perception is a funny thing. we may perceive things differently.

me, I perceive everything as infinite, including energy in the universe.

Yes, I do agree with it. If we are speaking of psychedelics when we say this quote then I still say yes.

If you hang up the phone, it's okay. The meaning and revelations of life are so full and deep that the phone will ring again..

I think the truer question is : Will you answer?

To be honest I have never much felt that this quote by Allen Watts had any relevance for me. I dont agree with it I guess just based on my experience..for starters..what message is that? My work with entheogens is an ongoing dialogue..it is animate. It is not a static answering machine adressing the same old issue over and over again.

It also does not translate very well for me to other areas of my life. I understand what it is like to surf a wave..I understand the ecstatic pleasure and peaceful grace that I experience while doing so. There is no way in hell that because I now understand this is where surfing can take me I am not going to go surf any longer.

The same goes for a meeting with a friend, or having sex..or any number of other things.

I was never a big Alan Watts fan though. I tried to listen to some of his talks and got bored..though I think he was a buddhist..and I also find buddhism pretty boring actaully, though I have nothing against it.

I always felt that this quote somehow trivialized the actaul experience itself and that maybe Alan Watts never really got it.

I like your point.

However, I would add that Alan Watts is likely encouraging us, like Ken Wilber and Huston Smith explicitly do, to move from state to trait: get the message, then do the work. In the words of Smith, "The goal of spiritual life is not altered states, but altered traits."

I think for some people, "the message" is as simple as getting shaken up too many times or somehow getting bored with it, and just need to know when it's no longer productive to go back in.

Something I think that we have to take into account is that (and I don't know if Alan Watts was taking this into account - I'm not very familiar with his history) as DMT users (and primarily effective DMT users at that compared to the crude synthetics and smoking methods of the 60's) along with our easy access to deep hyperspace thanks to our self-extractions, it may be incredibly easier for us to get the true diversity out of the psychedelic experience whereas you may hit a wall of sorts with LSD, or simply many won't take enough LSD to facilitate those deeper experiences. With DMT and a GVG (and harmalas for the harmala fans) we have instant, ready and repeatable access to the furthest recesses of the mind/reality.

This is why I took a "hiatus". Perma-tracers, hearing voices, and having next to no "focus" got to be pretty troubling. After a three year break I found that I was able to indulge in the experience again and get out of it more what I was looking for when I first started to trip. For me personally a break was necessary to collect the pieces of myself that I had blown apart so many times over the years and remember what it was like to live life somewhere other than "under the microscope" so-to-speak.

I have since found the great median that can be achieved with simple moderation. There was a time in my life when I swore that progressively higher and higher doses was the only way to truly "get there", but I've found recently that an even more affective strategy is to space out my trips with sometimes very vast periods of time in between and really making them count when I do partake (not necessarily with high doses but proper set, setting, and a great deal of planning to make the experience as pleasurable and smooth as possible). Granted some of the intrigue, at least for me, with psychedelic experiences is the unpredictable things that spontaneously pop up during your trips ("why do the strangest things always seem to happen when you trip?" ) but planning ahead can go a long way to prevent bad experiences.

There comes a point in life when you have to analyze the costs and benefits you're receiving from the experiences. If the costs outweigh the benefits then it seems like a pretty easy decision to make. This isn't to say that you can't still partake, but sometimes cutting back is a pretty logical step to take to prevent yourself from any self-inflicted damage. I've had a couple very close friends who went off the deep end due to extended psychedelic use. It's a truly sad thing to see, especially when you remember them as being fully-functioning, good, decent, down-to-earth people and have to see them reduced to a shell of their former selves that can barely function at all.

I can only speak for myself, but I know after I abstained from my psychedelic excursions (which included almost daily tripping for several years straight) I began to reassemble my psyche in such a way that enabled me to dabble on occasion without any detriment to my well-being. The point in voyaging through the mind is to acquire knowledge about yourself and the universe around you (at least for me this has been the predominant driving force) and when these journeys end up hurting you more than they benefit you, it seems like high time to analyze your situation and what direction you want to travel moving forward.

I honor Alan Watts more than I can say. I can even go so far as to say I love him like a father. But this quote always kinda rubbed me the wrong way. Alan was a very brilliant man, no doubt about it and he was an inspiration for myself, as well as hundreds of thousands of people across the globe, for the last 50 plus years now.

But his criticism of continued usage of marijuana and psychedelics, was on many levels, absurdly hypocritical. Alan was an alcoholic for many decades, right up until his early death. Sigh... and there still exists much debate as to if he died of liver complications or not. Booze is a killer.

But I know what he meant as an ideal... I just don't know where he was going with such an absolute statement. And I refrained from psychedelics for nearly 18 years and never believed I was actually hanging up any line of communication, I may have put it on hold... since I was just exploring other methods and doing other things. Then along came Dimitri.

Perhaps it was political on Alan's part or had to do with his status in the avant garde community or religious circles of his day? He did place a large emphasis upon the issue of legality. He never took mescaline or LSD after they were made illegal, practically worldwide and he only smoked hashish within Islamic countries, where it was still legal to smoke.

Sadly, the UK and USA where he spent most of his time, allow alcohol, tobacco and caffeinated products to be more than legal, they actually push these drugs culturally, upon their citizens with an almost religious fervor. And yeah, I do like chocolatey-good cup of java in the morning (or two) and enjoy a glass of wine or a good beer after dinner. All things in good measure.

But IMO, psychedelics and Ganja are not drugs, they are mind enhancers... and neither can they be brushed-off as one a shot deal. Everyone has to decide for themselves, though. But that's the beauty of personal freedom, eh?

well said, I couldn't have said it better.
TM touched on some of those points in Food of the Gods.

This.

"When you get the message, hang up the phone"

The psychedelic experience can be a valuable and life changing experience but there can be little, if any change, without the commitment to apply what we have learned.

I think we have all discovered - sometimes to great distress - that the significance and credibility of "psychedelic-lessons/messages" we have been given can fade away in the weeks and months following, and that it is very easy to have a desire to try and replicate those experience to revisit those places; to draw the message back into light.

What, I feel, he is saying here is - don't stick around listening to the same message over and over without integrating it into your life and learning from it.

The key word here is get; he is saying, when you understand the message, hang up the phone and take heed from it.

Yes exactly. When you hang up the phone, you are ending one conversation. This is not the end of all conversations. I do not agree with this quote when used in the context of ending psychedelic use, as it does not make sense for that very reason.

I would agree with this quote, in a sense, when regarding integration. I think this is what he is alluding to:

"If you get the message, hang up the phone. For psychedelic drugs are simply instruments, like microscopes, telescopes, and telephones. The biologist does not sit with eye permanently glued to the microscope, he goes away and works on what he has seen..."

Peace

Macre

that looks very familiar...is that the more complete quote?
if so, yes, I observe that. I may have seen that in Hallucinogens: A Reader.

The path to enlightenment, assuming there is such a thing, I think is a lifelong process. You continuously learn more about yourself and the world around you. That's why it bugs me when some 20-something comes on here and claims to be enlightened. That means the person is aware of everything there is to be aware of, and there is nothing left for conscious growth.

This is a generally regarded fuller version of the quote (though I am hunting a source, so I can't be completely sure).

Like you say, the path to enlightenment (or the path of personal growth) is on on-going process. Progress is made by building on the previous, which if anything, would suggest further psychedelic use would be more suitable than abstinence.

Peace

Macre

Edit: "Psychedelic experience is only a glimpse of genuine mystical insight, but a glimpse which can be matured and deepened by the various ways of meditation in which drugs are no longer necessary or useful. If you get the message, hang up the phone. For psychedelic drugs are simply instruments, like microscopes, telescopes, and telephones. The biologist does not sit with eye permanently glued to the microscope, he goes away and works on what he has seen."

Now this is confusing, because if this is the full quote it seems rather contradictory (I still can't be sure though, as I'm having trouble finding a source). Is he saying that you can use psychedelics as a starting point, with the view to eventually abstaining, then using meditation to further enrich insight?

Psychedelics are a powerful tool, so why stop? Surely psychedelics and meditation could complement each other. It is contradictory, as he mentions a biologist not being glued to the microscope. Though a biologist does return to the microscope, so this makes the quote rather inconsistent.

I might have to go and give it some more thought.

I have thought about this quote quite a bit .
I have wondered many times if I should have hung the phone up
Long ago .

For me dmt is a part of a larger integrated way to live my life.
It by itself I believe will always end in disappointment .
Dmt as a place to go, learn and experience side by side with
A grounded life that includes things like : family , kids , good friends ,
Helping other people , teaching , and productive " real pursuits " , good values
Honoring the balance of nature . It's in the integration and balance that dmt becomes
Most positive .


Sometimes I experience it on a purely esthetic level as if going to the most amazing art museum
Ever created . Trouble can start with overuse and believing its the answer or key to everything .
I know this feeling well. Balance in all things . It's a wonder of the world but always in moderation 😜

If you see enlightenment as a life-long thing to be achieved, then I could understand your frustration. Other interpretations of enlightenment define it as a temporary state of being. I don't believe it's the state of having all knowledge, but rather a temporary liberation from the wordy ego, its plague of thought perceptions, and the general sense of being unsatisfied. Perhaps you'd think I'm setting the bar too low. After reading Allan Coulter's "Psychedelic Anthropology" his definitions and talk of enlightenment definitely resonated with me, especially within the psychedelic context. He makes a compelling case in his reinterpretation of (the gnostic version) of the garden of Eden.

I can agree with everyone's perspective preferences, with my longings and imaginings, fantasies and desires, curiosities and ideas i create my experience with less effort through the aid of psychedelic, but the lesser the effort the HARDer to MATTERialise it into this REALity so to experience it together with the more the merrier.

"Once you got the meaning, you can forget the message". - Cant R. Who