this has nothing to do with autism , infact from what i can see Albert is really too deep into spirituality and wants to know the truth , his yearning for the light is playing havoc on his system

i very much respect Albert too , he is my brother aswell , sure he's gone rogue yet i know his desire for the truth is making him like this

if anything i believe Albert's Autism has had the most brilliant impact on him as he is extremely intelligent and when it comes to words he is a genius ,if anything he's very close to being a Savant , yet i believe he is using his exceptional gift at being such a brilliant scholar in the negative way just to debate on nothin

albert i agree you're very intelligent , i know the yearning for the truth in you is real , and when you know the truth you too shall see things from a different light

edit: i have to add this ..... i am technically insane , schizophhernia + parkinsons +mania and every other known mental condition afflicts me all the time and i am doing pretty fine so i don't believe its autism that is affecting him

I think the truth for every soul is different, that is why people discus, and also why i dont think you are a nutter Jin, and possibly just a warped genius

well you don't know me well enough brother , ask the elders here and read a few old posts on the forum

the truth shall speak for itself

I think insanity, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. One person"s madness is another"s meat (or tofu, if you happen to be a vegetarian)

The wise ask questions, like a small child.
Newton had to ask and experiment to confirm.
All answers are questions unto themselves.

Interestingly a lot of religious fanatics hate having their ideas challenged or questions, it is a constant theme of organized religion to not ask questions and to demonize anyone doing so. One of my points here is that this type of vibe is alive and well at the Nexus, the holier than thou, don't ask questions or challenge ideas and you will know if you are worthy trip is easy to find here. My point is also not only are there no spiritually evolved people, but that people who claim that there are or that we can be are incoherent in their reasoning, behavior and experience. I can demonstrate this easily here using the numerous contradictions that Rising Spirit shared but choose not to at the moment, needless to say any careful examination of what he shares demonstrates it to be merely a justificatory argument for his position that relies on mere psychological manipulations as well as testimonials, and actually it is incoherent when questioned using its own assertions, meaning it is not ultimately a different position than that taken by organized religion, while the beliefs that are stated are different behaviorally it is identical.

I have had conversations that are identical in many regards with a member of pretty much every religion that exists. Mormons, Baptists, Catholics, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists etc, they all say the same things that Rising Spirit does and make the same basic arguments, share the same basic testimonials and have the same logical and experiential inconsistencies. Most of the people I have met making such arguments are very intelligent and very kind and nice people in general, intelligence and kindness aren't in question here.


Intelligence is innate, learning, education etc, these do not increase intelligence.


In my experience and travels I have yet to meet or find anyone, online or off, who is "awake" like that.



Well, science doesn't support us being monkeys, but we do share a common ancestor, we certainly are confused arrogant self centered primates in terms of our species.
Awesome!

Good point, but it isn't my chase, I don't chase happiness. I consider it a transient state at best and both experience and let go of it, like all emotional states.


Tao essentially says that every front has a back, every up has a down, etc, including in terms of emotion. To desire any emotion as a state is chasing it in the sense I had been trying to convey, but I agree with you 100% on this.

Say I agree, this experience of connectedness isn't useful itself without effort and work pertaining to it or am I wrong?

I mean, you could be "one with all" in a love filled blissful euphoric trace state and still do nothing about it and leave the world worse than when you found it. If you consider an act of compassion important, then oneness or connectedness can be a starting point, but not in terms of evolution, in terms of action. We might be individually impressed with that first step towards the mountain, but without the other steps to take us there that first step is basically worthless...

I am autistic and intellectually aggressive.

But I also have a method to screen out some types of personalities.

I have respect for every person in this thread, but that doesn't mean i must respect their opinions.

I was born this way, I didn't go rogue.
My children are like this as well, even when quite small.



I have addressed this before in this thread, the "Emperors New Clothes" style logic... this is the basis for almost all of the arguments that people like Rising Spirit make, it entails a claim, implied or stated that they have reached a separate level from humanity and have evolved or risen above that that only those who have evolved or risen above can see it. It is like the same holier than thou stuff you find in any religion and all of them, it has nothing to do with how nice a person it or testimonials, but people who maintain it pat each other on the back even as they act like a pack of wolves. Ergo it is worthless, I have yet to meet or find anyone who maintains this position who can actually teach anything useful. It call comes down to egoism, group validation and the holier than thou argument. This is demonstrable only by questioning and challenging ideas through contrast and the argument structure format, which is not conflict, nevertheless people who get away with such arguments do not like being questioned or challenged and are unused to that happening.

The same euphoria state linked to oneness that Rising Spirit shares is something I am intimately familiar with. Anyone can find it if they know how to look and it accomplishes nothing, you can even be a downright evil bastard and achieve this state, or a nice guy, it doesn't matter and won't make you a better or worse person. It doesn't make the world a better place, that requires action, if you base your action on the awareness of oneness then oneness can have a positive impact, but by itself, ergo without action, it is worthless, despite all the bliss and euphoria. Moreover there are numerous methods for triggering that euphoric oneness bliss state, it isn't particularly meaningful and is not enlightening in the least, if anything sometimes people who are on their way to enlightenment type experiences fall short because they can't get past the bliss state by letting go of it, it is too nice, too comfortable etc, so it ends up holding them back and getting in their way.

In Taoism they teach specific meanings, while some might gain some insight of use, there are specific meanings in the teachings that have no room for interpretation or they will be off the mark. For example there in breathing instruction in the DaoDeJing, but it is hidden, it might be very hard to just gain an insight as to what the meaning is. There are many things like this in the teaching. It doesn't defy grasp at all but is part of a specific tradition of specific teachings.

I do not believe that one just stumbles across the hidden meanings in the Tao, one must be initiated and taught about them. I'll admit I am not making any effort to teach Tao in this thread. I will only say that Rising Spirit, as nice a guy as he may be, doesn't seem to understand Tao and doesn't seem like he is more spiritually evolved than anyone else here. As far as I can tell everyone here is on the same spiritual level, regardless of opinions.

One of the things which always pops up in any discussion of these themes is the "Emperor's New Clothes": argument wherein it is claimed that others would or do understand if they have achieved, are worthy, good, evolved etc.

Two things to note about this argument:
1 it works, and on nearly everyone, especially incredibly intelligent people to the point that it tends to work even better on more intelligent people than it does on those who are less intelligent.

2 very few recognize it, even those who use it do not notice what it is or why it works.

You can find it often enough if you know what to look for, it is common here when it comes down to the theme of psychedelics and spirituality.

if you know what to look for it is obvious enough, it always involves a testimonial, a level, value or judgement statement implying attainment or understanding beyond ordinary understanding and a recognition and or accusation of those who do not agree or share whatever position it is supporting as being inferior in understanding, achievement or whatnot. Veiled slights, insults and jabs are also common, as they are in Rising Spirits posts in this thread, where those who don't agree are treated as lesser people, ostracized and even maligned in a way to categorically exclude them, such as accusing them of being trouble makers for asking questions and challenging ideas. This happens here where people accuse me of trying to be argumentative, or being contradictory, because I am challenging ideas that are being defended by the "New Clothes" arguments alone.

While I am very interested in discussions and learning about spirituality, I do not recognize the "New Clothes" arguments as a sign of attainment, understanding or even a willingness to discuss and exchange. However I will note that they work on most and hence most will defend them, albeit blindly and increasingly upsettingly when reason is applied to their position, as is common to any fanatic in any belief system that lacks coherence. This thread is cliche in terms of this, predictable and even typical. Of course the end result is that the fanatics tune out or drop out of the discussion, as is normal. So be it.

I don"t know why but i find the idea of lots of little Alberts and Albertas running around being intellecually aggressive quite appealing.
As for the emperors new clothes analogy, can that not be used for spirituality as whole? We are all running around naked in our own self induced sets of clothes. It"s just that one size doesn"t fit all.

if children were so wise they would not need education


talking specifically about the apple falling , newton did'nt ask any questions , he was simply more observant


exactly and what does that tell you




agreed yet my point is not that , my point is no human can have all the answers to the questions humans come up with , they are very limited in intelligence and perception to answer the great mystery's of the universe ,

the only valid approach to understanding reality , life , spirituality , universe is to experience it , and the more observant one is the greater his understanding

this is not the kind of understanding that can be gained from education , this is the kind of understanding that comes from observation

every scientist while doing experiments relies only on one thing .....observation
as a scientifically gifted individual you know science is based of experimentation and observation of results , if two scientists perform the same experiment ...it should yeild similar observable results , if the observed results are diferent its back to the experimentation table......thus observation and repeatable observation is the key word

thus observation reveals truthful answers about everything and thus my point is why ask questions like this when you know the answers can only be learned from true observation

i am not really sure whether you know the answers can only be learnt only from true observation


agreed


the kind of awake-ness i am talking about is simply being present in the moment all the time and paying attention to reality rather than daydreaming or thinking

its not hard yet humans have accuired a taste for continuously projecting themselves either in the past or future

what is not happening right now is only an illusion as it is'nt actually taking place , past is only memory and the future is imagination

reality is what is being experienced right now , truly sane people thus live always in reality as only delusional people can think of the past or future




i would like to quote something from another thread to make you realize the kind of one-ness many are talking about


is the flower not connected to the stem , is the stem not connected to the branch , is the branch not connected to the trunk , is the trunk not connected to the roots , are the roots not connected to the earth , isnt the earth connected to the solar system , is'nt the solarsystem connected to the galaxies , are the galaxies not connected to the universe .........you tell me brother ?

is'nt it all one , does'nt it exist to support itself ?

does this help



apparently fanatics like me will do everything possible to bring spiritual knowledge to those in need

and exactly where do you think you're heading with the emperors clothes argument ... who do you think is really the emperor here , i mean when the flower is one with plant , roots , earth , solarsystem and all that the universe is truly one .......

if you don't believe this you're the only emperor here , as the one-ness does not depend on your thinking , observe and the truth will be infront of you

is the sky not one with the earth ? , is it not a complete package ?, could the planet sustain life without it? ...... you tell me brother

so are we all one or is it just mumbo jumbo and the observable truth nothing but the garbage of reality ,

is it really how you think it is ? or is it really how you observe it ?

While I was beginning to feel that the best response to AlbertKLloyd's increasingly aggressive style of sharing his emphatic ideas with other Nexians, was to leave the discussion entirely, I just want to clear the air about a few of the distortions created by, and complete falsehoods that brother Albert is weaving like a net (to intentionally snare some imaginary opponent within). Rising Spirit is currently his target, and who is next up for being discredited as incorrect, imbalanced, deluded and therefore wholly negligible?

I question this type of behavior. I question the motives and the intentions. Is such bradaggio an attempt to show the rest of our group that he is the alpha male, the most argumentative and demeaning dude on the Nexus, the uber debater without an equal? It just feels so blatantly combative, so disagreeable and moreover, quite rude to me. How is this an exemplary expression of "literal Taoism" or display proper Taoist "conduct and thought"?

But I digress... and want to publicly apologize to everyone in this thread, including Albert, for taking the bait and veering from the topic proposed by the OP. While this was presented as a discussion about Spirit and Psychedelics, it has proven to be an odd mix of insight and insult. It has become a battle of ideologies, initiated by Albert and apparently, is aimed at whoever he thinks I am. It has also morphed into a debate about what is, and what is not, Taoism and the essence of it's enlightened teaching. This is a turn in the discussion which has become a power struggle and was never my intention at all. Please accept my apology for contributing to such an unsavory behavioral exhibition. My bad.

Do I have to remind everyone here, that as this is the internet, that millions of minds can observe our dialog? From my vantage point, arguing amongst ourselves with such fervor is a disservice to The Traveler and the team of moderators who donate their free time for our mutual benefit. How does this paint our collective portrait, as human beings who wish to express how they have been effected by their explorations and involvement with DMT?

This is not a cocktail party and we are not on a street corner, far out of earshot. The whole world is potentially watching our behavior and so, listening to our verbiage. Might we be more tolerant of each others views? That even we psychonauts, who profess that they have been changed for the better through our entheogenic voyages, cannot be descent and polite to one another... from where I sit, this does not bode well for our collective cause. Sigh... shall we mend this fence by treating each other with respect and dignity?

IMO, such a performance undermines a lot of good folks' efforts. And if we cannot even pretend to coexist in harmony, this doesn't do our cause any good, nor show positive effects from our methods or internal practices. Is this just another nail in the coffin for the legitimate usage of Sacred Medicines? I surely hope not!!!

I wont say that this was Albert's intention, all along, as I suspect that my beliefs somehow unintentionally antagonized him to resorting to insults and derision. Or is any opinion other than his own, subject to some variance in verbal assault? I could be wrong, that he enjoys this kind of conflict-based communication, if so, please forgive my short-sightedness. I freely admit that I am passive-aggressive. I never claimed being beyond my ego. Spiritual awakening is often a cyclical process. We are all pilgrims along the Way. If I "thinly veil" jabs at those who blatantly insult and dismiss my experience as "meaningless"... so be it.

I am certainly no pseudo-sage nor am I disguising myself as some kind of a saintly wiseman. I'm not even close, just ask my wife!!! Also, I never implied that I had any secret membership to an exclusive circle of "enlightened" seers. All eyes can see. all minds can bloom. I opened my heart and mind and for this, I fear I have been targeted by someone with a big chip on their shoulder. I am just being myself and am aiming at sharing my experiences as honestly as I can, given the difficulty of our species struggle in deciphering one another's personal semantics. Let alone, the complexity of our conceptual interpretations of what we perceive and cognize, coming out exactly as we intend them to. To quote Popeye the Sailor Man, "I am who I am and that's all that I am"

Personalities are not identical and neither are their constructs in conceptual formatting. For those of you old enough to remember the 1970s comedy act, Firesign Theater (I date myself), I quote from one of their comedy routines, "We are all Bozos on this bus." In other words, there is no right and no wrong set of beliefs. We are all viewing mere fragments of the whole picture, potentially perceivable to our earth species and that is simply human nature (and it's limited parameters of awareness). I was an autistic child as well. The premise that being autistic means one is aggressive, dismissive and rude to other human beings, is fallacious. It is quite untrue from my vantage point and without any sound reasoning behind it's continued propagation.

It may or may not be a justifiable excuse for poor behavior in mature discussions. That's up to the individual judgement of those reading this thread. But I honestly believe that such "conduct and thought" is intrinsically inharmonious towards the beliefs of others... and 180 degrees opposite of the the lessons and parabolic analogies that Lao Tzu and Chang Tzu have bequeathed to humanity at large. It's not against the Tao, it is against civilization's code of ethics. I will be the first to freely admit, I may be most incorrect in this assumption, as to err is human.

I was also diagnosed as autistic. I did not fully read, write or accept the concept of telling time by observing the movements of a clock on the wall, until I was in the 4th grade. They held me back a few times, along the way. So, eventually I was deposited in a class referred to as "pre-fourth grade", with 3 or 4 semi-retarded kids and about dozen of those kids who, try and try as they might, could not grok the basics of the mainstream, schooled learning system being taught in the early 1960s. Many of them were highly creative, some were just bellow average in terms of intelligence. I might add that they were good kids with a lot of imagination. Thankfully, I had a wonderful young teacher, who recognized that in my case, I was not wholly without intelligence, I was just the most stubborn child she had ever encountered.

One day, after quite a bit of vexation about my case, she pointedly challenged me one-on-one and asked me what time it was. I said, "I don't know". She sat down in front of me and said, "I don't believe that, I know you can read, write and tell the time of day, but will not even try to understand something so simple." In a state of sheer frustration, she grabbed me by both shoulders and shook me as hard as she could. I smiled and kept holding her gaze. At that, she burst into tears and began to shake in surrender to my rigidity an lack of cooperative effort.

Now this was my favorite teacher, mind you. She was kind, patient, enthusiastic and affectionate. A lovely woman who I still respect deeply. More than that, she believed that any child could be taught if one found the proper approach to their unique learning circumstances. Seeing her in such a state of unhappiness literally broke my heart. I didn't know what to do... but anyone with any sympathetic feelings, any heart at all, would be hard-pressed to do something to ease the sorrow they had themselves caused.

I pleaded with her not to cry. She stopped sobbing and asked me again, "What time is it?" I looked at the clock on the wall and said, "It's ten minutes after one o'clock, Miss Oakes." From that moment onwards, I was a straight A student. My IQ was last tested to be 144 and I could care less. Reason is but half the equation in human life and more often than not, it cannot create peace of mind or equanimity. I believe, that for such equal minded cognition, one needs to train oneself in mediation. to unlearn much of what keeps us blocked from the direct awareness we possess as infants, where each moment arise to be something new and wholly miraculous. One ideally, becomes a balance of reasons and intuition.

I myself, am still quite imbalanced, admittedly, towards the creative and intuitive regions of my brain. Yes, I learned to behave logically in a world centered around rational attainments. This, however, didn't eliminate my autism entirely. I am still prone to drifting into abstraction, quite often. And I only go into such lengths to make this point, autism is not an excuse for Albert's actions, nor a justification in cause for his rude and most dismissive behavior, in a discussion which is supposedly about the Spirit. How is it that something as enigmatic and ineffable as spiritual understanding, should illicit this tit-for-tat mode of communication?

I have expressed what I know I have experienced and despite the misunderstanding that Albert gleans from my words, I am being truly sincere. I never implied that because I have had many white light experiences, that I was better than anyone else. That would be unbridled egotism and hardly spiritual in any way. Nor do I believe that I ma separate from any of my sentient fellow, as I believe that there is but one greater organism and we are all equal aspects of it's entirety of being. But I will not deny what I have seen directly and experienced from my appointed windowsill.

I honestly think that there are an infinity of windowsills to glance through, and an infinite number of eyes viewing what they believe is reality, as they see it. So, please know that I do respect you all as family members and honor your experiences, even when if is quite alternate to mine. Is there not strength in diversity? Value to many vantage pints? All I know is what I have seen through my mind's eye... and what I understand of this mysterious field of being, is my own dreamscape. One I enjoy sharing.

As far as this "Emperor's new cloths" nonsense goes... it's nothing new at all. I see this as a diversion tactic to nullify the validity of another's views. Yet, for the individual, it is always a new revelation. So,we get exuberant about our epiphanies. Some folks like to praise the Unity and Oneness, other decry it as an anesthesia of sort. To each their own. And yet, even Christ said, "I am making all things new again." Is it not common knowledge that we create our own reality? I didn't make up such a notion and I challenge that it is suspect and part of some New Age agenda. And it is not simply an idealistic fantasy, nor a load of bull. Truth is one, paths are many.

OK, I am being aggressive in saying so. It is far more evident to me, that Albert is selling the fantasy, that such argumentative banter is more "valuable" than any DMT breakthrough or sober, deep meditative experience. I do not. From my viewpoint and opinion, it is akin to throwing stones. Neither is it thinly viewed, it is an ego war. Now, if we cut the crap for a moment, we might return this discussion to Spirit and Psychedelics?

I must seriously question if Albert has ever had a breakthrough experience on psychedelics. Partially, I'll concede, because he values heated discussions over DMT experiences. I'd ask that he describe his breakthroughs to us all, if only key aspects of it. I am open to his vision. But he derisively paints the testimony of any who have embraced immersion into the Unified Field of Being, mockingly so at that, as being mere delusions about some dumbing-down euphoria, attributed to the vision and feeling of the interrelationship of Oneness. We are One. I simply feel that there is nothing so grand, consuming or beautiful, as the vibration of undifferentiated love as we inter-phase within it's totality. And then we touch the earth, we ground the spiritual union, grinning a big smile at the vast universe in all its perfection.

This does not remove hatred from the world we all co-inhabit, nor does it change a person overnight, surely! I have held the believe that moments spent in transcendental states can and do change our experience of ourselves and our fellows. And I sincerely mean that inclusively, not exclusively, and this shifts the parameters of our very minds. Yes, I honor such a state of mind to be more "useful" than any mental gymnastics offered as a counterpoint. I feel that if anything is "the king's new cloths" it is pretending that quarrelsome discussions are innately spiritual or for than matter, civil.

And I do not feel that I am right or wrong for believing what I do. Now that would be arrogant and the signs of madness. I seek to be in agreement on some points and respect the differences. Call me optimistic and I'll wear it as a badge of courage. I only ask the same courtesy in return and hope that we might act kinder and display more compassion to one another, as a more viable and healthier alternative to argumentativeness for arguments sake. We are souls, Light seeds sprouting in earthly soil, not pitbulls in a caged dogfight. Peace above all things. Just my thoughts on the direction things have taken between Albert and I.

The greatest irony is see here, is that he and I both have been students of Taoism for several decades now, and long-time taijiquan practitioners. I had hoped for more symmetry and harmony in our exchanges. I will not address all of the slanderous projections brother Albert leveled at my various statements, as that would be like trying to put out a fire by throwing gasoline on the flames. As this could go on forever and ever... and we've other more important issues to discuss as a community, I bid you all a fond adieu. In this thread, this reply (a long-winded foray at that), is my swan song. Not because Albert has intimidated me into submission, rather, because I felt that life is too short for such fruitless debates. I just don't like arguments, however thinly veiled, even while clothed as an intelligent discussion.

For those of you suffering from optic stain, because of my verbosity, this comes as a great relief, I'm sure. Lol. No harm meant to your eyesight, guys. May your journey deeper into yourselves be most luminous and thoroughly inspiring for you. May it engender significant transformation and much worthwhile, personal growth.

"Two things to note about this argument:
1 it works, and on nearly everyone, especially incredibly intelligent people to the point that it tends to work even better on more intelligent people than it does on those who are less intelligent."

well..that does come off souding rather arrogant. I could just as easily assume you just concider the people who agree with you to be the more intelligent ones becasue you assume you have the most intelligent arguement. It comes off sounding from my perspective as nothing more than a subjective opinion of who holds a certain level of intelligence..of course this is still just my own subjective interpetation of your statement.

Sir... I could read your posts till the end of time and always walk away with a smile on my face and a skip in my heart...
Thank you...

Think you got the wrong guy quoted there my friend, you and I seem to be on the same page

Jin, I will get back to you, but I will note right now that you are creating an either or dichotomy that isn't my position.

Rising Spirit, you can attack me and the form of the discussion, instead of addressing it, that is fine. You can call into question that I have broken through etc, but this is exactly what i said you would do:



I consider dialog and debate quite healthy, but many people are not comfortable with a discussion where people are allowed to disagree with one another, some prefer to think we are all correct in our views and that we should not challenge ideas. I do not view all viewpoints as equally valid, for it is possible to be both misled and mistaken. At one point my views were rather identical to those Rising Spirit shares, but upon examination and with experience I found those views problematic and incoherent, much as I find his views to be now.

I am not being intolerant of any views, just challenging them. I do think Rising Spirit is being intolerant of having his views challenged.

Jamie:

I don't assume I have the most intelligent argument, but I understand where you are coming from.

My point was that intelligence is unrelated to this, that many intelligent people use and are swayed by arguments that are just manipulation of psychology instead of demonstrably true. Ergo the "emperors new clothes"

Hug46:

Perhaps, but it doesn't seem so to me. While it is a mainstay of religion it is absent from many spiritual systems that are very old.

I have not been a student of it for decades, i read the Tao for years, more than a decade, but that means nothing and I didn't get it until it was explained to me after my initiation.



I think you mistake argument as a form of conflict.

Perhaps its the way you go about trying to make your 'argument' that makes people see you as someone seeking conflict?

Debate is perhaps what you are looking for but your posts as a whole (in this thread) come off as argumentative and quite confrontational.