^^This is something I wholeheartedly agree with.Albert, it seems you are not alone, drowning in the sea of ignorance!

I think this is also reflected in the cases of those who suffer psychological damage as a result of psychedelic use; consumption precedes altered thought patterns and this is subsequently reflected in behaviour which can include adopting 'unconventional' beliefs.It must be recognised, however, that 'normal' thought patterns reflect a continuum along a spectrum with the observable aspect being functionality on a day to day basis, and those at the further reaches of this continuum but still within the bounds of 'normalcy' may be tipped out of this 'range'.

It also seems to me that when we consider DMT in particular, as opposed to the other classic agents, it has the capacity to render the experience as subjectively more 'real' than the others do and this is not casting any aspersions on the power of the others. But IME this facet of the DMT experience is what beguiles all and may produce a greater impact that lasts in many.

IMO, there is no 'truth' to the psychedelic experience, just a profound ability to allow the users to consider a broader range of possibilities.Altered patterns of thought, if you will.

Consider perhaps that it is the experience of oneness that is important moreso than its implications - the rare opportunity to be fully present, in the moment, outside of time. It is that experience that is valuable in and of itself in a very subjective-objective manner. I say "subjective-objective" because the experience of oneness excludes the subject-object relationship.

Additionally, I believe, to claim that 'we are all one,' is only half right. We are both one and separate simultaneously. Being in one state does not negate the other. I believe that it is cross-applying these categories of thought (synchronizing the hemispheres if you will) that is of particular benefit.

I think this is a very interesting thread and I'd have to say I generally agree-- I do not believe that psychedelics are inherently spiritual.

This said, I wouldn't go so far as to say that spiritual experiences with the aid of these substance is limited only to those who seek it or 'push' themselves there. Sure, mantras, prayers, meditation...it all helps and goes a long way--but my first few psychedelic experiences were not intended to be spiritual in any way; I was taking mushrooms and LSD purely for recreation, and was actually pretty close-minded and cynical when it came to spirituality in any way, shape, or form. These first handful of trips were the most spiritual experiences of my entire life, and I reached the highest peaks and deepest fathoms of my mind, which I have not since been able to reach, on doses I have by now far exceeded; regardless of how many mantras I chant, or how long I meditate. (Granted, I wouldn't call myself a hardhead and I havent partaken in any massive doses of anything yet)

For me, these first few trips caught me completely off-guard everytime--I thought I might have been going crazy. I could not ignore the significance of the experiences, yet I had never known such things (eg mystical experiences) existed--I had noooooo idea psychedelics were actually kind of a big deal. And now I'm extremely grateful I was able to integrate and push myself further into the weird; psychedelics have helped me to grow immensely, personally and spiritually. They've taught me that the most important things (and often the trippiest) are in everyday sober life, the present moment, at all times--psychedelics have taught me to appreciate it for the mind-bending, miraculous, beautiful paradox that it is.

All this said, to date I don't think I've ever had a trip where by the end I feel like I didn't learn anything. However--none of my psychedelic experiences since my first handful of initiatory trips have been innately spiritual. The first few I didn't have to try at all; my filter of perception was shattered and I knew throughout each experience that this was it...this is what all the fuss is about...this is literally everything. I have to push myself to get these same points now, hard. Before I didn't have to think about it, it just kind of happened. It was like my mind just kind of took over and showed me a bunch of cool shit it could do on it's own, and now it's given me the controls back and I'm starting from scratch. Maybe I'm just in an awkward phase.

But anyways TLDR: Psychedelics may not be inherently spiritual, but they have enormous potential to provoke the spirit that is inside of everyone--one just must be open to the experience and be in the right circumstances.

As for me--I think when I first tried psychedelics it was at the perfect point in my life where I knew I needed to change who I was and what I was doing with my life...I just didn't what to do or where to start; I just needed a good push in the right direction.

On a side note, I think half the reason a lot of people trip and don't ever have spiritual experiences is because they don't open themselves up at all. Most people I know (take this with a grain of salt, I'm a young'un) who trip do it recreationally, and when they do it they watch movies, play video game, or go to shows---stuff like that. A lot of them will say they feel connected to the earth and other people, and might have some nice insights--but never anything like ego death or cosmic union or anything like that---even at absurdly high doses. Now, I personally think this is because people fight the effects of the drugs in order to stay sociable. I know that when I'm trying to interact with a group of people, generally I have to keep bringing myself back from going too deep in my own head, and if I'm doing this throughout the entire trip, there's no way I'm going to have an OBE or really experience anything spiritual. The first times I tripped, even though it was for recreation, I wasn't watching movies or doing anything like that. I was laying back in my bed with one other close friend, and just kind of waited to see what would happen, and then just let myself go to the effects. I think a lot of kids are into the idea of doing these kind of drugs because of the taboo association that comes with it, and the idea of thinking it's cool to be a 'head'--yet almost all of the 'heads' I talk to say their worst trips were when they went too far in their own minds, started to leave their body, started to experience ego death...a lot of the people I know take psychedelic drugs so they can see pretty visuals and feel happy, but when anything else starts to happen it gets too weird for them and they freak the fuck out--they spend the whole time fighting the majority of the effects of these drugs (the interesting ones, imo).

So again I just think it really comes down set and setting of course, but most importantly having an open-mind--being totally willing to completely surrender yourself to the drug. If you can really do that, you won't need a massive dose to have a spiritual experience.

Anyways just my take...that ended up being a lot longer than I intended

What was spiritual about them?
How was it so?

the point is to realize "We are all One" and the fundamental truths of reality

then to live it to be more in touch with reality as it is and to experience all life has to offer;

Yes reality is an illusion; But is a dam amazing illusion that is REAL to us in some way..

Knowledge and intellectual understanding is nothing without application and integration...

This is what i am personally working on.. There is really nothing to know or understand or break down;

I believe we are here solely for experience ALL the crazy possibilities


Thats why alot of people think its worthless; most of that is coming from the intellect and EGO trying to comprehend what is happening; the EGO cannot wrap its head around spirit at all;

But we all have EGO and it is a part of what makes this thing all work and us appear as "separate" which is important;

So yeah life is a giant paradox and oxymoron like some have said; We are all one on a fundamental level but also have separate unique identities and personalities which is just AMAZING


In my view Self Realization is the greatest discovery any human Being can BE

I always knew humans were special but when i experienced we were the totality of LIFE itself and a microcosm of the universe it just took me by complete surprise and ive been working to integrate ever since this happened a few months ago;

I kinda feel like..whats the point of yall talking about it?

How does one word their spirituality?

Excellent point, jamie. I am of the opinion that we word our spirituality the same way we word anything normal and ordinary in our experience. Unfortunately, ordinary linguistics fall far shy of the enigmatic mark, for when we speak of aspects of universal being, which are invisible to our 5 senses... there is a gulf which is not easy to bridge with normal speech. So much of what I personally experience as spiritual, is not able to be spoken of with human linguistics (even Sanskrit seems to be a primitive tool to utilize in such a lofty verbal pursuit).


I can definitively relate to your vantage point. I find this revelation to be quite true, both as an ideal and as a very real, direct perception of the spiritual reality underlying all that exists. Or is it that we are superimposed upon a field of said Spirit? And I agree, one's definition of spiritual, is key to giving any useful value to the experience of Oneness or facilitate immersion within the Field of Unification, at one with all that exists (or does not appear to exist to the 5 human material senses).

So, when we say, "spiritual", we are speaking about the hidden nature or interior energy within things? Or are we speaking directly about the oneness of Spirit, as with the idea of God, as being the totality and force which initiates-maintains-reabsorbs all of this phenomena we perceive, as living in the universe of form? For many, that which is spiritual is: ineffable, immaterial and insubstantial... wholly indivisible. It is not the gross material plane of existence, it is the Divine essence hidden within all we perceive of in this earthly illusion, as the singular reality, as witness to the myriad appearances and divisions (yet, the whole time tis the sole Omnipotent force). Perhaps it sounds a bit trite or far over-used... but we are all one happening, one supra-experience, viewed through myriad points and perspectives within the Grid.


Bingo!!! From my understanding of Spirit, it is ultimately, immanent and alive in all being. an unbroken current which knows no barriers nor any limits. If one maintains a Pantheistic stance, or views the Sacred from a Taoist, Zen or Sufi lens of perception, there is only the Tao (naught else but Allah is everlasting conscious-awareness).

When all we perceive is glimpsed (as within the state of Samadhi or Satori), as the heretofore, unseen spiritual realm... what then, is not God? There is no God apart from anything else. Thus, all is Sacred in it's truest nature, as Spirit is literally everywhere, as well as unfettered by the time-space-continuum. Seen in this beatific light, it is a blasphemy to denounce the physical plane as apart from God, and therefore, not being spiritual. If God is Omniscient... there can be no place, no point, no field... which is apart from the Oneness and the Supreme conscious-awareness of being Godself.

But I would have to say that what you describe experiencing as animating all of the material universe, Amygdala, is what the great master Sri Aurobindo labeled as, realization descending from the highest plane of being. So, where one in ascension mode, one would not perceive of the living Spirit of the Sacred, equally within all phenomenon. One would release all attachments and associations with body, heart and mind... to embrace the formless, limitless Absolute state.

Post-realization, however, is another matter. In descension mode, the knowledge of the One becomes evident wherever we aim our soul's awareness. Which doesn't mean we don't again fall asleep and forget this Holiest of truths, as we live out our lives as mortal entities. Few beings can maintain such a level of consciousness perpetually. so,we are speaking in terms of ideals and allegories (and that's an understatement!).

Paradoxically, this awakens the indwelling soul of humankind to witness the effulgence of the Divine in every blade of grass, in every star twinkling in the night sky, every bubble dancing within the rushing current of a babbling mountain brook. Surely, the Eternal Tao knows no bondage to form, yet, it seems to delight (a human assumption, granted) in dancing throughout the diversity within the realm of quantifiable form.

So... both the transcendentalist view and the immanent view are equally true. WE as individuated souls must give meaning to our epiphanies and bring the Light of all Lights from the immeasurably higher levels, to the more ordinary and seemingly, mundane level of sentient being.




Nice!!! Man, am I glad you guys showed up to breathe some fresh air into this old debate of Humankind's. Speaking of "breath"... the Latin meaning of Spiritus is literally, breath. It can also be thought of, if I understand things correctly, as soul-essence or of an alternate dimension to the physical plane we inhabit 90% of our lives. I sense that it may well be the rationally impossible movement of the unmovable, the action of the inactive principle of unmanifest consciousness, becoming manifest. So, perhaps on many subtle levels, what we seek to define within the word "spiritual", is itself, as natural, inherently alive and wholly immanent, as is breathing and our hearts rhythmic beating. The Cosmos breathes throughout all of the "10,000 things" born of it's insubstantial, unborn source.

As for myself... after consciously walking the path of the seeker of Spirit/Truth/God, for the last 38 years plus, I know no thing with any conviction nor certainty... but That Divine Field of Being. I can say I know myself but I have come to find that much of myself is wholly illusory and will return to cosmic dust before too long. All else seems like a lucid a dream sequence, a mirage of sorts, and a habitual modality, me caught within the extremes of duality.

Spirit is everywhere and it is nowhere at all. It is you, I and all other other forms of existential stuff... so too,it is the Void. Here and now, the Spirit shines blinding clear before my fleeting human incarnation. It's a blur for my ego-self to see but within my core and deepest fulcrum of awareness... I know it directly. Directly as myself. And yet, I am a mere flicker in the expanse of eternity, a minuscule dot within the panorama of infinity. Still, I can strive to witness nothing but the free dance of Spirit, as it spirals endlessly, as infinite existence. I honestly see Spirit this very moment (but not with my material eyes, rather, with my singular eye).


Well, I believe that much of what you say is also quite true, and it is your own truth, so I deeply respect it (and honestly do understand, what you are eluding to). But I see another reality, one which is majestically radiating said Oneness. The Sacred Unity is an indivisible state and within it's infinite vacuum... spiritual symmetry exists without form or definition. Thus, all we routinely perceive the very echoes and reflections of That. Undifferentiated sameness is truly palpable, if one trains the mind to perceive of it's quintessential presence.

If one attunes one's individuated soul frequency to That which is One without a second, significant tracers of this magikal flow can be observed whichever direction one looks. So, why would unity not exist with form intact? If one sees the Light in the cloak darkness, is not the darkness then, unreal? Not so sound overly simplistic, but the indwelling Omniself wears many hats (all hats, for that matter, and in it's fully transcendent state... there is no hat that could possibly suffice). Again, the cosmic oxymoron in it's mysterious ways.






Sometimes, the tiny droplet expands itself to become the vast sea, in it's grand totality. Yet, the single drop is but a speck within the oceanic expanse. Perhaps in the symbiosis betwixt the polar extremes, there is deep peace, great union and euphoric love? In my dreamscape there surely is. Perhaps too, it is merely within our isolated points of reference and thinking process, that any membranes of separation exist at all? In my heart of hearts, all I know is this, love is the highest frequency of being. And love can be found upon any and all planes of conscious-awareness. From this single humanoid's windowsill, God is akin to love itself... the most sublime and undifferentiated state of love. These are good things to ponder over, again and again, and truly worthy of sincere discussion, eh? Thanx, all of you folks, for being awake and existent!!!

I don't think that is the case, I think that is meaningless.
This concept of fundamental truths of reality sounds nice, but the fundamental truths of reality seem closer to sleep, eat, poop than anything else.

That sounds a lot like a religion to me, like how they sell religion.
"awaken to your full true potential!"
the offer of achievement, enjoyment, reward etc
"experience all life has to offer!"
It sounds like psychological manipulation offering an elusive form of validation as an enticement towards agreeing with whatever tenants are involved.
The army does the same thing:
"be all you can be!"


If it was how would you know?
If it wasn't how would you know?

That claim seems a lot like something that cannot be proven either way.
Why believe in it? What evidence supports it?
None can, because if reality is an illusion then nothing we experience that says or indicates it is an illusion is real, because it is an illusion such experiences are themselves illusions.
It becomes a kind of silly claim, because those who say there is ANY form of evidence for it undermine their own assertion.

It is my contention that if it is not an illusion those who say it is would never know, and if it is an illusion those who say it is could never know that it is. Either way you still have to eat, sleep and poop.


Ok... well the following quote strikes me as entirely based in human egoism:

Forget for the moment that i find this to be vain and arrogant, instead ponder that if reality is an illusion, so is all sense and experience. If it is an illusion then one cannot experience that it is an illusion or it would not be an illusion at all. If it is an illusion then our experience based claims are meaningless, including the above claim that; humans are the totality of life itself.

You have just rendered god the most worthless, boring and meaningless mundane entity to me.
What is the point of such a conception?

I can only assume that this is ultimately a humanocentric doctrine that states that not only is there no god apart from anything else, but that the purpose of existence, of the universe is centered around the human experience. To me that is blasphemy. No offense intended.



as a Taoist (literally) this is not something I believe

I will note that these concepts "freedom" "oneness" "rewards" etc etc are reminding me of the story of The Emperors New Clothes, only those who have attained or evolved can see the magical fabric of the oneness of all.
Evolve, transform, receive the rewards etc, it all seems like attachment and ego driven concepts to me. For me these teachings are contrary to Tao and Buddhist teachings, and Vedic teachings and others.

I will note that those who have evolved, who have spiritual freedom, who have transformed still; eat, sleep and poop.

What is the point of it? to experience oneness I mean... it all seems so hedonistic, to be motivated by ego and the attachment to the idea of reward and transcendence. What is there to obtain? Rewards? Spiritual freedom?
What rewards do we need?
What spiritual freedom do we need?

I find the very idea we exist but have to attain, to transform, to evolve to be an insult to the idea that God is everywhere or that we are a manifestation/creation etc.

This concept that we are working towards something like spiritual awakening is what i think the illusion is. Are we some accident meant to evolve? Are we some creation that was made wrong and needs to transform?
Are we nature itself working towards some goal of creating some perfect evolved being?

What then?
This is all an allusion to a final cause, as if there is a goal oriented plan in action that couldn't just happen... it required all this stuff to happen etc like human spiritual evolution...?

I think that only appeals to the ego, to our need to validate and justify our existence, are we unable to justify our existence without saying we have a divine purpose? A need to transform, evolve or go through some ritual, initiation or attainment?

In my experience all doctrines like this originate in someone making money off of teaching them, selling it in some way, be it an organized religion, new age spiritualists, neo-hindus, etc.

For some reason it seems like there are other teachings out there that say the secret to getting the most out of life has nothing to do with attainment, reward, evolution or going through rituals. It is found instead in conduct and thought. Nothing is gained, nothing is lost, there is no reward, no punishment, no dues to pay and no videos to buy or seminars to attend.





If we surrender the ego, how can we not abandon concepts like evolution, spiritual attainment and rewards?
if there is nothing wrong with Gods creation how can we not abandon the concepts that we are here to transform or become or work towards some end or goal?




Yeah, I know.
It is ever present, the nature of all.
Taiji arises from Wuji

But that also means that sacred unity is no more significant than sacred non-unity.
If it is taiji it is yin and yang balancing out, the unity and non-unity are like yin and yang. Why emphasize the unity or oneness? That seems imbalanced, a focus on the unity is as unbalanced as a focus on the division. The only reason we can focus on unity is that we are also divided as well as united. But we come into existence this way, it is innate.

What can be gained or utilized from realizing the unity that can't be gained or utilized from realizing the division?

If I accept now, if I have no ego, desire or attachment and just be, then what use is spiritual evolution?

I am more concerned with eating sleeping and pooping than spiritual evolution I suppose. That makes me ignorant, likely enough, but I can accept that too.



I believe that. But I might have a different believe about the bondage of ignorance, for I see a desire to attain, obtain, transform and evolve as a form of bondage. I'd rather be concerned with everyday routine than with enlightenment.


I can recall the times and places I have been there, but I still had work to do, to eat, sleep and poop etc. The euphoria was nice, it is nice, blissful, relaxing, like flying or floating, but it was also very ego feeding and desire driven and even distracting from my daily routine. This is why I believe the oneness, all is one, doctrine isn't really very meaningful outside of using it like a hedonistic pleasure drug. I totally understand why some people sell it like a drug and why most people who seem to chase after it are quite familiar with drugs.



When I was writing about using spiritual techniques in this thread I was discussing many things, but the contexts of the goals involved were not clear, they are not in my own case for transformation, achievement, evolution or enlightenment, instead they are for the development of specific skills and effects, notably potentially ego driven, but also incredibly useful in terms of daily routine. I see spiritual practices as conditioning, like exercise in many ways, but only to be healthy, not to become a being of light or some evolved form of life.

These are my thoughts and passionate as I am this is the form they tend to take, I am not trying to be insulting or offensive.

I think what i percieve as my spiritual moments (moments of clarity?) have so far resulted in me being able to live my life in a more contented way and it may reflect badly on me but i think i have had my most profitable experiences where i have realised that everything is irrelevant and nothing matters at all, and 10 years after my death no one is going to remember or care. This has been very cathartic for me but may be a result of the probability that i am not very imaginative. But i think i can relate more so to the beauty in the tasks or objects that i sometimes consider to be mundane. It also has made a little more relaxed. I"m still not sure if this is spirituality, or a philosophy that has come about in me over the years.

I too lack assurance in this matter but very much like the perspective you share.
Letting go of the chase for ones tail makes it so much easier to find it caught.

AlbertKLloyd - I think I get what you are saying. In a much condensed paraphrase, even if we are aware of being continuous with our environment/one with everything, how does this impact my day to day life... I still have to work, eat, poop, etc. (Of course I may be reading you entirely wrong).

What I have gotten from my psychedelic use in this regard is mostly a shift in perspective. I think about my relation to the world differently than I used to, and from this change in perspective, the way I feel is often different and the quality of living my life is different. I would say that these two examples are the real world consequences of the views that I have chosen to consider, and it has been a very positive influence in my life. This is the only 'spirituality' that I know so far.

From taking psychs, I came to view the world as very complex systems that interact and overlap in mind boggling ways, instead of isolated nouns in an isolated world. It has erased the sort of solipsism that I had long had as a young man, and the resulting connection that I feel to my environment is so fundamental from this that i can only call it spiritual. For example, before psychs, if I looked at a tree, I would have seen an isolated noun, cut off from the roots and living in a sort of vacuum. Now I know that nothing exists in a vacuum, and that tree is a component of an incredibly complex system that reaches far beyond the physical boundaries of the plant itself. There really is no way to isolate the tree from its environment as the two are so interdependent that it would be like trying to isolate the cardiac and respiratory systems in a body.

I am well aware that this may sound like hippie drivel, and if you met me, this would sound even more bizarre coming out of my mouth. I think that I am a very practical person... I have just considered this viewpoint that is for all its lofty-sounding idealism, very practically rooted. For some it may be obvious that our languages divide the world up where no division really exists, and for some this realization may not be life changing. For me it was. I no longer feel like a stranger in a strange land, I feel like a component of a machine so large and bizarre and evolving that it makes me almost knocked over thinking about it.

Life is pretty awesome, and if nothing else it has been a hell of a ride.

Why is it so important to you Albert to prove that others don't have spiritual experiences from DMT?

Fist of all, Happy Easter Sunday to all of your folks out there in cyberspace! It's a pleasure to have touched your minds, hearts and unique energies, all of you!


My, my, my... you cetainly don't mince words. Push-hands is valuable for taijiquan practice but if you want people to enthusiastically participate in your thread, I advise you to be less condescending and insulting. Hey, it's your dream... so I won't bore you or lecture you on humanocentric etiquette.

I have discovered, for my own direct experiences, that when one senses, feels or intuits the presence of the Divine, in what you refer to as "worthless, boring, meaningless or mundane", is rather inspiring and energizing. Seeing is believing?


Assumptions are not always accurate nor reflect correct understanding, brother. What is equally humanocentric, is declaring the absence of Spirit, within the material paradigm. Arguably, if this must sway towards a debative exchange, it is our quantification or dequantification that shapes our thoughts about what is spiritual and what is in gross appearance, absent of the spiritual essence (the eternal flow of the Tao).

Our individual perspective and/or philosophy, regarding the palpable presence or the lack of palpable presence of the Sacredness of Being, only changes our own small view of things. So, surely, it is humanocentric, as we are not dolphins, mosquitoes or earthworms. We are One with them, as earthlings but in our unique diversity, we perceive through the lens of our admittedly limited human conscious-awareness.

Now, when you publicly queried about how we see the interrelationship between psychedelics and Spirit... any number of ideologies or vantage points can freely sprout. Which is what I assumed myself, assuredly just another single vantage point, this intriguing thread addresses? My bad if I err in fully understanding your intentions. But where are you going with this line of thought? Something as enigmatic and ethereal as Spirit, cannot feasibly be codified to any system of thought nor any human philosophy.

But we can choose to honor this Sacredness above all other things and in so doing, share the love. I submit that we can and do reflect it's Light and rejoice in it's living presence, right here and now, effulgently shimmering silently before our vision of life, our own unique dreamscape.

Universal truth and spiritual "enlightenment" cannot be fully expressed by thinking about or discussing what we believe is true, subjectively, as jamie wisely suggests. But you asked for perspectives and you are receiving many fine ideas, from many wonderful individuals.

My only concern is that through your contradictory behavior, the beautiful vibe we could co-facilitate will never bloom harmoniously. And also, I know for a certainty that many gentle souls will avoid this thread like the plague, if you continue to engender such condescension and rude replies. As you stated, it's more about "conduct and thought". So, as a brother, I ask that you exhibit good conduct and think kindly of your friends here at the Nexus. Am I boring you again? Lol



So now you are dismissing Lao Tzu's timeless wisdom? Lao Tzu was the historical founder of Taoism as a religious paradigm, as we know it toady, more than 2,500+ years ago. And while this is not the beginning of what we label "Taoism", he was the very personification and primary sage of this ancient lineage. Frankly, why profess to be associated with any Chinese tradition or quasi-metaphysical affiliation at all, if you lack the traditional Chinese veneration for your elders?

Challenge Dr. Suzuki and Sri Ramana Maharshi if you will... but I know of few seasoned Taoists who would approve your contradicting the venerable Lao Tzu. It's fantastic and necessary to think for yourself and not simply follow the dictates of others, sure, but internal cultivation is so key Taoist practices, I wonder why you are being so contrary?

Why bother professing to be a "Taoist" if you question the understanding of it's highest known of exponent? Why not be a Lloydist instead? Lloydism... sounds like an intriguing lineage, even if it's not exactly my cup of tea. I will say this though, you do speak your mind ever so unabashedly! And I do respect that!


Having touched the heretofore unreachable essence of the Sacred Field, we embrace life all the more enthusiastically and open our hearts to the balance of all of this whirling duality in ceaseless motion. We see the unity and feel the flow of the enigmatic Tao, as if each moment brings with it the splendor and glory of our inherent harmony within it's natural, celestial expression.


Yes, I've always figured that Zarathustra, Lord Buddha, Socrates, Lao Tzu, Jesus the Christ, Mohammad and Tamo... all had to wipe their asses and blow their noses. And they must have endured acne, tooth decay, illness and all of the other intricacies of the human condition. It comes with the human package, eh? Still, for such as these Masters, it was highly likely to have also been an act of conscious-awareness. While it isn't exactly a loveliest thought on Easter Sunday, Jesus remaining in spiritual union with the God-state (he perceived within himself and all around himself), even while pooping, I suspect it is true.

IMO, grounding the Sacred current is key to our growth as expanding intelligences and our very reason for being at all. Understandably, if you have some philosophical or rational disdain for attainment, cultivation, personal human growth, transformation or evolution of human consciousness, that's totally cool. As Alan Watts wisely said, "It's like trying not to try." But if one notes nature and the entirety of the physical galaxy we all co-inhabit, there is nothing but endless movement, constant flow and endless change. Evolution may be a conceptualization but most of what we express falls into this category.

Just being? Being is it's own purpose and it's own destination, I do agree on this point. But this does not make growth and expansion erroneous ideals. This is a transformative process and quite a blast at that! We are the essence of universal intelligence blooming and growing through integration. Is this not true internal cultivation and exercising our fullest potential and shaping our organic destiny?


Oneness simply is. We perceive it... or we do not. Any statement beyond that is a subjective projection. We all know that, for some mysteries need to remain mysterious. There is no point to it. How could there be any "point" which makes sense to human beings, as points of reference are born of subjective, sentient interpretation and an acceptance of the reality our view of our experiences, based on what each isolated aspect of the whole witnesses of the boundless Omni-experience?

But there is a great and overwhelming joy in sharing the buzz, and if you feel the need to incriminate any entity for desiring to be happy instead of depressed, feel the bliss of unification within the Supreme Field of the Godhead instead of feeling isolated and alone in a lifeless mass of cosmic dust, it's your choice. Freedom of choice is a fascinating phenomenon. Love is the buzz. To be in love, as Rumi elucidates so beatifically, is to be more aware of the presence of Spirit in all things, on all planes, in each moment.


Acknowledged. Whereas I find that without an effort to awaken, to focus clearly into the fulcrum of one's conscious-awareness, one remains locked in circular logic. By going beyond mental parameters, one willingly and knowingly inter-phases with the energy inherent within all of this thing we call "Life on planet Earth". It is hardly an insult to the Tao if we attune our mortal perception to it's ineffable presence, which is always here, now, this very moment. Again, seeing is in effect, believing.


I must disagree about human spiritual evolution. It appeals to more than just the ego, it appeals to the soul. OK, let's agree to disagree. But I now begin to see your some of your gripes and they are legit. I also despise the mas-marketing of spiritual paradigms. I myself have never paid a dime to any spiritual organization or gotten addicted to seminars, classes or been conned into forking out big bucks for "enlightenment". I have purchased quite a few books but who hasn't? From the time I was 17, back in summer of 1976, I abhorred the commercialization of Eastern meditative techniques and the mania for building ashrams, temples and organizations which more resembled corporations than any sincere Sangha. I refused to pay the TM group for a mantra on principle alone and found my own path. Later I would travel many different paths but again, who hasn't explored new horizons and alternate pathways?


I find some of your remarks quite ironic but very honest and in that regard, most sincere to your beliefs. Kudos to you for being yourself! But, how is surrendering your ego willingly, to merge within the whole of the Omniversal current, consciously so, hedonistic? If the limitless serenity one feels from acknowledging one's direct interconnection to all else is hedonistic, color me hedonist! From such a simplified declaration, any human cognitive experience which prefers upliftment and expansion of self-awareness, falls into a hedonistic guise. I feel this to be wholly untrue.

And contrary to your emphatic decree, immersion within the Clear Light of the Void does not leave us dysfunctional and guilty of escapism. It awakens us to the reality of the living, breathing Spirit (Spiritus). with both feet on the ground, we recognize the quintessence of the spiritual, as it dances through myriad forms and dimensions. My natural response is exuberance. A feeling of belonging and an urge to give thanks and praises to Jah.

One intentionally loses oneself, albeit temporarily, within the greater field of the Grid. In so doing, the soul touches it's core source, once more, and is reborn in the splendor of the Supreme Light, transformed anew in remembrance of the perfection of this existential paradigm.

And I never denied that trance states share a certain symmetry with entheogenic usage. It takes integration and internal cultivation to ground the epiphanies in our daily lives. But to suggest that the countless humanoids, for millenniums, who have embrace such experiences have been "drug" users, is wholly incorrect and most demeaning to a whole lot of extraordinary people. I must question your motives.


Well, then you do seem to share many of my beliefs too! And as naive as it sounds, I feel that we are all very much alike. I also seek to open myself to "development of specific skills and effects". In my own life, the practice is it's own reward. Just being myself. There is nowhere to go but HERE. Deeper and deeper into the NOW. Yet, when we choose to embrace levels of being which transcend the material, I believe it is only natural and quite beautiful to center this shift in awareness, embracing and grounding it to our center and root, so to speak. And is this not why we utilize "spiritual techniques" to conjoin with our entheogenic voyages with Sacred Medicines? Just my 2,000 cents, after all. Lol

BTW, I just read this and it is beautiful! It is so pertinent to this thread, I sincerely hope I do not err by adding it here. Namaste, TatTvamAsi



Breath... Spiritus... and so it is that we are here now. Just beautiful, really.

There are simply no truer words that could be said.

The fact that we are alive in this moment is the most mystical thing possible. I mean anyone wanting to challenge this assertion needs to describe in detail how exactly this moment came to be. From where did this moment come? What are you? Where does this 'I' arise from? From what does "now" arise?

The universe isn't expanding into anything. It's pouring out of an enternal now as there is nothing for it to expand into nor from. I suppose sometimes it's hard to see the mystical in computer text on a screen, so let me go grap some images that are my personal proof of the mystical nature of each and every moment.

This right HERE is MYSTICAL.

Yessir, That's a whole bunch of stars! but yeah, true words Amygdala, but I might also add that everything is also a physical, mental and emotional experience. It's unavoidable because everything is connected. That's why I can't ascribe to this train of thought :

[quote=AlbertKLloyd][quote=Amygdala]
The idea that everything is connected and all is one only has meaning because of the divisions that exist. It only has utility if it affects or has an impact upon our behavior in terms of interaction, as opposed to opinion. Basically knowing we are one with everything is not very useful unless you act according to it, but the action in such accordance is only possible as an agent which is in many ways independent.

I guess it's as simple as cause and effect. Think of a spiderweb, you touch one corner and vibrations ripple all the way across. or a guitar string, or the moon, a tree. One thing affects so many other things which in turn affect a whole bunch of other things. Nothing is independent of itself. When you realize this, life becomes a mystical, beautiful experience and I think to simply dismiss that is unfortunate. You may think there is nothing special about this perception and it's true, it's the most common thing in the world but that doesn't make it any less magical. To derive joy from this "oneness" is simply the work of the ego? c'mon man.

For me, this realization has been the single most useful thing that has ever happened. I spent two thirds of my life feeling alienated from the world. Distant and unconnected to so much all around me. Through a couple of huge realizations and some years of consciously mending my damaged perception of the world and my relation to it I began to feel a joy and depth to my existance that I had never known before. For me, this world, this life is like like poetry. I feel no shame in that. I'm not trying to be like buddha, I have no interest in "dissolving" my ego. I wouldn't even know how to go about trying. What I am interested in is living an authentic life in a fashion that best suits my character.

AKB, you say you are a follower of Tao. Have you ever felt the Tao? My feeling is that it puts every thing in motion and holds it all together in a way that makes every single thing under heaven essential. I'm so glad to know of this connectedness or unity of things, it has made all the difference for me. Lastly, We may have to eat, sleep and poop but I'm going to do mine physically, spiritually, mentally and emotionally and make every effort to enjoy the hell out of it. If that involves my big scary ego then so be it.

Life
is
sacred.

enjoy it and forget trying to describe WHY is it sacred.. Your just gunna end up with a weird list of reasons that can be disputed or agreed with from endless angles..and waste time you could have spent being bliss charged.

How so?

I don't believe in the so called material paradigm, but I would like to know more about your assertion.

.
As to where I am going, just discussion. It is were are we going with it more than I.

As for the aspect of spirit being codified, the only reason we share the concept and have it is language, all spiritualist systems employ language and are rather codified...



I seek to discuss these views, people can agree or disagree and form their own views, but I like to question and be questioned.

Take nothing for granted.


Many good friends and I have discussions quite similar to this and often have quite heated debates, and yet we love one another and share a great deal.

I am not interested in sharing beautiful vibes, and if someone avoids reading this thread because of a passionate discussion then it is not for them. It screens them out actually, something I like.



I am a literal Taoist, in my group we do not venerate Lao Tzu, but for me I will note that you quote the The Hua Hu Ching, many including many Taoists do not believe this is his actual teaching or even actual Taoism. I am among them. It is a good book, but I employ the TaoDeJing's teachings much more extensively.


Tao Te Ching chapter 20 is a good place to start, but I am not being contrary, I am challenging your views for my own benefit. Questioning all views strongly is a Taoist teaching. Take nothing for granted.


It isn't the highest exponent and I don't participate in figure worship and i don't even believe that what you quoted is from Lao Tzu at all.




i employ 5-6 translations but this is among those I like:






That goes directly against the Tao as i was taught and believe.
Splendor, Glory, Enthusiasm etc
I much prefer:

Inner peace is not from bliss, love or euphoria, for as Tao teaches they are all a side of a coin, so to speak and thus entail their opposites. Love and Hate cannot be separated, joy and sorrow likewise. Some experience life as if it is a wonderful feast to enjoy, but this is not what Tao teaches. It teaches that an attachment to such emotionality is not to be desired or pursued.



Not disdain, I would like to see it, but have yet to see any evidence for the evolution of human consciousness.

I can respect your view, but do not share it at the moment.

Again it all sounds like "the Emperors New Clothes" this idea of "fullest potential" seems suspect to me.

That statement is also a subjective projection.


Chasing that happy vibe entails depression, it is imbalanced and why it is against Tao.
I certainly do not feel isolated nor alone or think cosmic dust is lifeless.
For me the awareness of the spiritual in all is not bad nor good, not euphoric nor depressed, not isolated nor unified and it also has utility, methodology, pertaining to life.

I will admit most of my position is based on experience, not logic. But I do find your logic to be circular to me.

I do however agree here in that it is good to focus on ones consciousness-awareness, but I would not term that as awakening or think it leads to evolution, just a form of understanding that goes beyond words and emotions.


Good question.
Seeing is believing.
The answer is in the behavior and words of those who chase this universal current.


Question everything.
I do not mean to demean or place on a pedestal. But I question strongly that there are those who have done what you suggest, or that these people were not 'ordinary' as the word 'extraordinary' implies. I am more concerned with the inner quality than the outer, hence the figure worship and veneration is not something I participate in, even for patron saints of my religion, and even for God, I love God but do not worship God.

To me this idea that we are here to awaken, evolve etc, is not accurate and seems very arrogant to me. The idea that we must venerate others likewise is not accurate to me. The idea that we must venerate one-ness is likewise not accurate to me.


Sort of, we all feel it all the time, noticing it is different, but one does not notice it like one notices a tree, it is the removal of the distractions and not the noticing of a property that this involves for Tao is without property.



Agreed, this is the basis for my noting problems with the representations of human evolution and attainment, there is no evolution of consciousness, no attainment or level to reach. The Diamond Sutra teaches this very well.

Count me out of future discussion in this thread then. It seems practically tantamount to trolling to start a discussion for heated sake. After all, we're already pretty aware about how each other feels on these issues after much prior discourse so for now, I bid you adieu