From Wikipedia: "Psychedelic states may be elicited by various techniques, such as meditation, sensory stimulation[1] or deprivation, and most commonly by the use of psychedelic substances."

I have been meditating probably 2-5 times a week for about a year and while it definitely allows for consciousness expansion/exploration in my experience, I have never gotten visions or anything else typical of a psychedelic state. Therefore I'm curious, can any of you guys "see" things on meditation, or do anything else that one encounters on psychedelics? I have heard/read similar things about stuff like yoga.

lots of wierd things can happen via meditation

this sort of thing is brought up several times a week, although mostly in the chat. Maybe read through some of these threads

link

Thanks!

I have meditated a fair amount. Been at it for about six or seven years, about five times a week, not for super long times - ten to twenty minutes at a time. I have also studied Zen, which took the form of spending Sunday mornings meditating for about an hour total, with some chanting etc. thrown in. Plus I've done one four-day Zen retreat and a number of all-day sits, which is a Zen thing where you all get together and spend the whole day meditating in 30-minute blocks, interspersed with things like eating and work. No talking allowed. I don't do the weekly thing now because of location and other commitments, but I meditate daily, a number of times in the office for five to ten minutes a pop and then once for 15-20 minutes before I go to sleep, unless I've had more than two or three drinks, in which case there isn't really any point to it.

I don't think that meditation is well-suited to fulfillment of the thrill-seeking impulse that leads many people to psychedelics. One doesn't get 'high' from meditating the way one gets 'high' from drugs. The exception to this is states of a kind of mystical oneness where the distinction between the meditator and the world dissolve. That has happened to me, and it's pretty neat, but it's not going to happen to you the first time you try meditation. You also have to understand that seeking, discussing or even describing such states is pretty strongly tabooed in Zen, although reliable production of such a state is (kind of - it's complicated) the goal of Zen practice. Sort of. Officially, altered states and other awesome things like telepathy are considered undesirable epiphenomena. Talking about Zen is hard.

Anyway meditation is very good for other things, such as having an interesting, rewarding and happy life - but again, undertaking meditation with that as an explicit goal is likely to lead to disappointment, so Zen people, real Zen people, not dilettantes like myself, would never say that. There is a saying to the effect that zazen does not make your teeth whiter. You 'sit' (that's the preferred Zen term for meditating) for the purpose of sitting only, without any kind of goal in mind.

All of that malarky aside, I strongly recommend, to anyone who will listen, five minutes a day (set a timer) spent sitting in a relaxed but upright position, with the spine straight, counting the out breath from one to four. If you're interested in the finer points, google 'zazen instructions'. Posture is oddly important. Give it a shot and see what happens.

I should have mentioned - there are various forms of breathwork that will reliably induce very strong altered states. I am studying one right now and it is fucking crazy. Take a look at holotropic breathwork, which was developed by Stan Grof after his license to use LSD in his psychotherapy practice was revoked, and look around to see if anyone in your area teaches something similar. In my experience it is much easier to learn this from a person than from written instruction, so that's all I'll say about it.

Hi aegishjalmir,

Thanks for your very informative replies. Well I can't speak for everyone but I think at least on this specific forum those who do drugs are after experience rather than feeling, if that made sense (obviously some drugs offer very little deep experience and are all about feeling). Any euphoria or anything is just like a..."bonus", at least for me.

But anyways I will definitely have to research some of the stuff you mentioned. Thanks again for all the info; great to hear from someone much more experienced in meditation!

Like aegishjalmir said, you can't go into meditation with any sort of goal in mind...however, I've found that meditation is key for keeping your mind under control. During a psychedelic experience, it is a skill that, in my opinion, is indispensable. If it wasn't for the meditation/breathing exercises that I practice daily, there's a chance that I would be too afraid to even use entheogens anymore.

I've been able to pull myself out of the depths of hell with my mind and will alone, and transform a frightening experience into a beautiful one. The greatest part is the post-trip integration; being able to keep yourself calm and collected during such chaos bolsters and reaffirms your ability to keep yourself calm and collected in day-to-day situations.

The mind is a powerful thing

Thanks.

I have heard it asserted before (I think from McKenna) that meditation techniques may have been created to be used with psychedelics, and after a while the drugs faded out of the practice leaving only the techniques.

He said that about shamanism, actually. The first real theorist of shamanism as a practice rather than as a set of beliefs was Mircea Eliade, who believed that non-drug-induced shamanic trance was primary and that the use of mushrooms or ayahuasca or whatever represented a degeneration in the original human spiritual practice. McKenna turned this on its head and said that mushroom-induced trance was primary and that shamanic traditions that didn't have access to entheogens (usually for climactic reasons, e.g. mushrooms don't grow in the desert or the arctic) were a shadow of the real thing. In other words, the shamanic practices, techniques of ecstasy as Eliade called them, were invented to replace drugs. He based this theory on personal observations of drugless shamanic traditions, specifically Indonesian shamanism and Tibetan / Nepalese bon, the pre-buddhist shamanic tradition in the Himalaya. I think of this as Terrence McKenna's least crazy theory. I am a big fan of Terrence and listen to his tapes every chance I get, but most of his ideas are batshit. I threw this one at a really pretty famous anthropologist when I was in college and she replied that my idea - that is, Terrence's - is probably correct. Drug-induced trance is much more reliable than non-drug-induced trance, and trance is essential to shamanism. Although, as I said above, I'm pretty impressed with breathwork, based on limited experience. I don't think this rule extends to meditation though. Buddhist meditation is a much more recent phenomenon, I think of it as a corrective to a degenerate, non-hunter-gatherer lifestyle. And at any rate it doesn't lead to trance states.

A corollary idea of McKenna's is that shamanic practices that are not denied access to entheogens for climate-related reasons inevitably make use of them. So for instance there are no South American shamans that live around ayahuasca but choose not to use it in their practices. I find this idea fascinating, because if it is indeed true then the ur-shamanism, really the original human religion, that gave rise to the cave paintings in southern Europe at the end of the last ice age, really could have been inspired by mushroom use, as those people would have had access to psilocybe semilanceata and a couple of panaeolus species.

aegishjalmir and everyone in this thread, thanks for some really informative posts

"Visions" can be pretty subjective.

Meditation allows for greater control over attention during multiple states of consciousness. Don't expect any kind of "psychedelic" experience, although some of the effects of meditation can include psychedelic visions, especially when awareness is focused in between different states of consciousness.

Part of meditation is letting go of expectations, and there lies the beauty of novelty.

There are many "stages" of consciousness that *can* occur during meditation, some of the effects can include dream-like flashes, psychic premonitions, or entire alternate realities.

These are often referred to as "visions", but these are not the goal of meditation, in fact, the is no "goal".

Meditation is simply experiencing reality mindfully as it is in the present moment.

Meditation can be psychedelic in the fact that it leads to the manifestation of the true nature of the mind. So not in a visionary sense, but in the sense of the true meaning of the word 'psychedelic'(mind-manifesting).

I really agree wholeheartedly. Being able to marshal one's focus is an incredibly useful skill, since it can help you break mental feedback loops that arise from negative thoughts/emotions. It's waay too easy to keep feeding your fears if you don't know how to take a step back from your own mental processes and consider what your own mind is doing!. A mantra is very useful for this. The Litany Against Fear, anyone?

A friend of mine claimed similar thing , "that I can make myself trip" I immediatly disregarded this as non sense but it intrigued me to investigate. After reading many theories as to what and how to make this happen i came up with a conclusion. There are vast amounts of dot in the lungs and trace amounts in the brain so doing some sort of breathing exercise would b neaded. I then read about a claim stating he achieved a trip by simply focusing on what he could see whit his eyes closed. I sort of hybrid meditated by relaxing , then trying to focus only on my breathing and not the world or sounds around me, and finally i focussing and focusing my eyes(while closed) to try and make out the imaged there. After around 5 minutes I was feeling relaxed but not seeing much of anything just faded blurs of darkness, after about 25 of dedication to this I opened my eyes thinkin I was going to he done and low and behold I see a bring green illumination firing across my white ceiling, and I immediatly can't bealive my eyes, after the initial shock of realizing I was hallucinating while not on drugs I relaxed focused on this green blob and it began morphing a changing hues almost like it was synchronized, this continued for sometime gettin more intense with shapes and odd geometric images . Afterwards I remained very relaxed , and even tho prior to the meditation I smoked marijuana it felt as if I was more than stoned. I don't know if this will be helpful to you but I figured I might as well share my own experience with this, I have tried to keep doing this a few times a week and it has gotten easier to stay relaxed and focused on the images

hello all

ive been meditating for many years and you cant exactly trip of it but you can certainly see colours and get a feeling of going into something or something coming into or towards you.

One can even leave ones body, so if they say that is the same state as a pyscadelic trip then yeah I guess, but there is no way you could trip form meditation like you can on psychedelics ie oev or cev like when on shrooms, 2cb, lsd or DMT.

Every time I meditate I see what could be called CEV but its more just color changes which seem to be in tune with waves of happy emotions.

the two states could be compared on some levels but on other levels they are totally different.

Peace

That sounds more in tune with what I experience it was nothing like the visuals of a hallucination and I could see everything clearly yet with my breathing the Ora of the color would grow bigger and change

Well said and I agree wholly. This is a cool thread! And I feel that like all of you folks in this discussion, it is fruitless to compare the psychedelic experience to the practice of meditation. They are two different processes in human perception, although they inter-phase wonderfully.

One is an immediate, powerful journey into shifts in conscious-awareness, that sky-rockets the observer within oneself into a fantastical universes of morphing, interlocking geometric patterns, rushing sensations of synesthesia... and a sudden interaction with frequencies of energy which have been heretofore, largely hidden to ones 5 senses and reasoning mind.

The other is an incremental blooming, an organic unfolding. The meditative lifestyle is a posture of endless self-discovery. More like toning and exercising one's concentration and capacity to come to stillness, than a trip to distant galaxies on a rocket ship (fueled by psychedelic substances). Meditation is the natural bloom of sadhana and is a harmonious attunement and endless remembrance of centering one's mind on the present moment. The path of awakening is begun with one single step.

Metaphorically, it is also kind of like tending to a garden. We do choose which plants to cultivate and which to intentionally weed-out. One the other hand, it does seem to bring on an instinctual appreciation for the balanced chaos of the natural world (so beautifully prevalent in the wild).

Entheogens are allies which aid the psychonaut in voyaging beyond the normal appearances into a universe of kaleidoscopic fractals and shimmering oscillations of pulsing light. Like being flung into the vortex of all being, in all dimensions, on all planes and parallel paradigms. There is a reason these psychedelic plants are considered MAGIKAL.

This is consensus reality, this world we cohabitate within, as we have been taught to adhere to the appearances and illusions. We are trained to believe we are material beings and nothing more. Save perhaps, within our dreams, where symbols and ideas are fluid and wholly malleable to one's intention.

Meditation itself is nearly impossible to embrace, nor train oneself within the parameters of, contemplate about or even talk about for very long... without running into the immediate problem that meditation is something which begins as one set of motivational impulses and then, gradually transforms into an altogether different shift in overall motivation. (How's that for a heck of a run-on sentence?)

Meaning, initially there is the desire to calm the mind, feel peaceful, settle the turmoil within one's mentality and gain greater equanimity within one's spectrum of emotions. Sitting and/or moving meditations are inward methods to train ourselves in the art of self control, as it were. It matters little if one uses a mantra, a candle, breathing techniques, contemplation upon the void or even a crystal ball,... whatever way we embrace the inner path, we gain the same boon of developing a growing degree of concentration and single-pointedness in focus.

Said focus leads to mind expansion and the potential for spiritual visions, which in my experience, differ greatly from psychedelic hallucinations. But I do believe there is a symmetry in function and both arise from the very same part of our brains (the third eye). Naturally so ॐ

We effectively still the waters, tune the clarity of our observations, center our innate core and our awareness. We release the random thoughts which habitually arise, back to their source, the formlessness of insubstantial void. Or perhaps we are really undoing what has already lodged itself in our thought loops? Little by little, one realizes that it's not really about control, restraint or even mastery. It requires surrender and a deep faith. I have found that I have become more sensitive to love and am more able to express more loving thoughts to the universe surrounding me. Love is the buzz.

Sure meditation is addictive... so is sunshine, starlight, playing music, feeling a warm spring breeze or falling deeply in love.

It begins to dawn upon the person who routinely practices meditation, that what one is really doing is changing our mindset. We are changing who we are by small degrees, as intelligent organisms, capable of self introspection and possessing a desire to reach beyond the ordinary, into the mystical. This happens by incremental steps. We are tuning the instrument of our consciousness, simply by allowing for a deeper level of focusing our own awareness.

This then, is where the similarity to entheogens arrives. We begin to voyage into a new paradigm. Our accumulated training grants a higher degree of impartiality, a far more acute ability to shift form one level of thought, to another, much subtler level of thought.

This can inn the right circumstances, propels our curiosity to even to approach a realm of undifferentiated mind. A mind-set that is it's own undoing. A clarity of internal focus, which immerses itself a stillness and effulgence of emergence, so profound and vast... that we are no longer thinking at all. And yet, we are more highly aware of being a conscious observer of one's own innate being, than at any point in one's dream of sentient existence.

And as many of you fine folks have wisely stated directly or eluded to subtly, the union of a human mind, possessing an attuned degree of internal focus (enhanced by regular meditation). And the psychedelic experience... is like the seamless flow of the river merging with the vast expanse of the seemingly, limitless sea of infinite potentiality. IMO, one without the other, is not the same kind of entheogenic journey int the unknown.

For myself and my other kindred spirits, the continuous intention to enter into the meditative state, is wisest approach to the use of one's incarnation. Whether or not one chooses to use the gift of Sacred Medicines or to refrain, it is the journey of a lifetime and it leads to this very moment, here and now. This is it! And we are in the center of this subjective fulcrum of conscious-awareness. Where else would we be? We are here together and we are surely expanding ourselves with every experience we embrace. The exciting challenge is finding the middle path, observing the immanence and balance of the Tao. ☯


We can make miracles happen if we bring clarity and focus to our attention, as witness to the flow of our own existence. Or perhaps it might be better to look a it as allowing ourselves to accept what already is before our perception, as truly miraculous? Just by accepting our responsibility in making this immense universe spin. Such a glance into the unbound potentiality of the eternal current of BEING, is a Sacred ritual in and of itself (and preferably, as informal as possible). It is a beatific pause, a moment spent outside of the time-space-continuum, however it is arrived at or from which angle, such direct Gnosis is gleaned and ideally, reflected brightly.

I believe we are here to know something quite profound and ultimately, so very simple. We are not trapped in some kind of random collision of cosmic circumstances. We are existent because we want to be. Our dream is self-motivated, self-created and we are all ultimately, in control of how we choose to see it (whether we know it or not). Underneath such an effulgent epiphany, is the dawning awakening that one is in truth, completely being
FREE.


"Freedoms just another word for noting left to loose."

I often times get visions in meditation. They are however not psychedelic in nature.
Typically they are dimly light (though not alway's) and are much more real looking.
I often feel as though I'm seeing a far away place. In fact just the other day about 10
minutes into my meditation I saw an elephants tunk which slowly turned into the full
elephant who was waving his trunk left to right and curling it up and down like a real
elephant all the while seemingly staring back at me.

Seeing visions like this is a sign of concentration.
In Buddhism there is talk of the Jhanas and some of the higher Jhanas
do indeed supposedly correspond to more psychedelic like visions.

BUT. Every sincere tradition say's that visions are ultimately only a distraction
and in fact that has been my experience as well. Every time I have them
I get sidetracked...with the "Whoo ohhh a vision"...and then the concentration
is broken and I spiral back into thoughts of I, me, mine and have to once again
force the mind back to the original meditation object and start over.

I will say from my experience, meditation and lucid dreaming are like cookies and cream for me.

As I have a habit of waking up many times a night; so I meditate, usually around 4 am or so. Maybe it's the melatonin I take, that causes me to feel fairly awake at that time, I don't know. Great time to meditate, very quiet, you feel the dawn of possibilities.

Anyway, as I lay back down to sleep, I nearly always have lucid dreams that I can recall in the morning. It's like an intermixing of states of consciousness, similar to a psychedelic experience in a way. Worth a try.

Exactly! You guys said what I really wanted to say, with far less wordage. That being said, there are a number of angles to perceive of this issue and the OP's initiated topic of discussion. It simply can't be put into the "proverbial nutshell" and be simplified to a constant or fixed rule that applies to everyone, everywhere, forevermore.

All philosophy and comparisons aside, the inescapable fact is this, each individual soul experiences psychedelic and meditative states in their own unique way. But there is a common-ground and this is where we all meet together. Such a common-ground could be called a Satsang, I suppose? From whatever state of mind we begin our psychedelic journey, we undergo the same types of chemical changes and shifts in consciousness. This, however, is a gross simplification.

And we aren't exactly comparing apples and oranges, we are comparing states of conscious-awareness and sometimes this is not so simple to reduce to a few brief sentences. So, forgive the verbosity and let me try and re-address the OP's topic from a slightly different spin... that being, comparing and contrasting what we see, think, feel and sense, from both the entheogenic and meditative pursuits (or in the case of true meditation, the surrender of any pursuit).

As the calendar measures these things, I have been practicing meditation since 1974. So obviously, I am still a mere upstart.
Seriously, this is the journey of a lifetime and I imagine, it leads far beyond a single lifespan. As we all know, genuine meditative levels of awareness are not caught within any time-loop, nor can they be measured by any sequential observation. But on the other hand, just like playing a musical instrument or any other creative endeavor we embrace,
"practice makes perfect".

So, I suspect most of us have along way to go before we begin to fully understand what meditation truly is? I know I sure have a waaaaaaays to go until I stop trying to catch the tiger by the tail (in a manner of speaking). Or is that just within my illusion? An imaginary mirage caused by the play of light and shadow before my picture of reality? Enlightenment is as near as the moment and as close as right here and now. No need grasping, no seeking, no trying... no fixations or preferences. Everything is sheer perfection.

Back in the day, I initially trained in Seon sitting meditation (Korean Zen). This came to me coupled with marital arts training, in specific, Tae Know Do. A year later, I began to explore TM, as mantra meditation seemed far more accessible for a teenage mind. Mantras offer something to become absorbed with. Total emptiness is a difficult thing to focus upon. Yet, ultimately all methods lead to a silencing of the mind and a deep stillness.

Along the way, I became involved with Kriya Yoga, Surat Shabd Yoga, Sufism, further and further into Zen Buddhism, hand-in-hand with Taoism. Recently... I can't even put into any definitive reference, what my meditation actually is... or who is doing/undoing the sadhana, merging enthusiastically in trance states... it simply happens of it's own accord and characteristics, It is a very, very, very beautiful experience to cultivate!

The profoundly enigmatic mental stillness one touches, through the meditative vibration, slowly erases the fixation of what I term "The Iso-self" (or our separate ego), which manifest in juxtaposition of "The Omniself" (our inter-phase with infinite, universal intelligence). This is where psychedelics and sober meditation have a direct interrelations with one another, that is, if one conjoins the two spheres or modes of experience, as one function.

Either way, we need to let go of all expectation and preferences. This release propels the witness within, the silent watcher observing the self, to experience a pause in it's normal continuum, to shift into the vacuum of the effulgence of the undifferentiated unity of Spirit.

Individuated awareness expands into undifferentiated awareness. One realizes that one is everything (and no-thing at all), not just an isolated part of the whole, as we have be taught to accept. We are the components of the totality of what I and many others, refer to as, "God". There have been many human names for this Divintiy: Brahman, Aten, Ahura Mazda, Ishvara, Yahweh (YHWH), Allah, HU, Wakan Tanka (Great Spirit)... but what's in a name? Same totality... same Omniscient Field of Being.

Being-ness is what we essentially share together. What makes it Sacred, is the place that we are sharing the same universal consciousness, looking out through different eyes in rapt wonder. Thinking through separate minds, all that which we reflect of the Oneness, is determined by our commitment to discover the reality behind the transitory mirage. To cease to objectify the interconnections refracted within The Grid, and simply merge with them voluntarily and euphorically.

I believe we exist within the Unified Field of Being, as the very same, said Field. Therefore, we are the same Omni-field expressing itself, unique to the relative circumstances of the individual, observing perception.

Within such an interconnected web of life-force, all things are united and identical to each other. As they say in the cosmology of Advaita Vedanta, "Tat Tvam Asi" (Thou art That). If entheogens shift our focus to such epiphanies, then it is only because we have entered a meditative state.

The Magik of psychedelia is that it jet-fuels us higher and higher and higher... ad infinitum. I honestly question sometimes if the price to pay for such immeasurable ecstasy... is greater than the inspiration we glean and gradually integrate into our normal lives. It does create a dependence on an external chemical catalyst, to shift one's attention fully.

Meditation, on the other hand, benefits the soul in it's process of naturally expanding into fully resplendent, conscious bloom. It becomes a constant companion and slowly opens the mind to the effulgence of the Godhead within all things perceived. It eventually dawns upon us that we are already enlightened entities, we just need to stop dreaming that we are not. We are the outcome of the dance of form and the formless, the current and the vacuum where naught moves. We are all, on our deepest levels, empty of any duality and all seeming illusions. It is said that we all dream.
It is also said that we all, eventually awaken.

This emptiness doesn't have the same explosive, kaleidoscopic roller-coaster ride through the multiple planes of consciousness, that psychedelics gift. It is a steady path of internal cultivation, not an instant trip beyond the parameters of the material world.

I began this process of unfolding and attunement about a year before I started smoking pot and hashish. This was three years before my first acid trip. So, from my own point of reference, I was never trying to compare the meditative state to the psychedelic. For me, they are one pathway with different kinds of stimuli creating distinct results.

In regards to the wild visuals that entheogenic usage facilitates, the fractal patterns, mystical symbols we "hallucinate" and those blinding visions of the Clear Light... some of these are indeed aspects of the deeper levels of very sober meditation. Alternately, some are simply too psychedelic to be experienced without the use of Sacred Medicines.

Now, I am certainly not a mystic nor an advanced Master of spiritual states of conscious-awareness, so what do I know of the experiences of said Sages? I honestly can't say... but it is most noteworthy that most highly evolved humanoids emphasize releasing our fixation with visions and astral adventures. They almost uniformly stress the need for a surrender to the insubstantial current of the Divine Being. The immersion into the One. This requires the abandonment of the ego and the normal attachment to one's subjectivity.

In other words, it seems wise to seek the state of consciousness beyond subject and object, within the appearance of this and that, immanent yet formless. In this way, routine meditation can shape the frequency of one's perception of being existent and allow for that beatific silence to be noticed directly. To merge with No-mind and touch that point of awareness which is all points of awareness,. Or should I say that field of awareness? In the Clear Light of the Void, there is but one being present, radiating existential effulgence. I feel that in the depth of this effulgence, is the source of all creation, existence and dissolution. We are children of the Light.

As far as what I witness and see/feel/become when in a meditative state, there are symmetries to my psychedelic voyages, for sure. The most dramatic one for me is the direct vision of the Inner Light. This coupled with the sound of the vibrating ॐ or as we say in Hyperspace, "The Carrier Wave"... these always shatter me (in a good way), every time I fuse my focus upon them. I then dissolve into the effulgence and the roaring silence, so much so, that I lose myself wholly, for a spell.

If not for nearly 40 years of pretty regular sitting and moving meditation training (and un-training, frankly)... I might well be caught in myriad streams of mental chaos or overloaded with thoughts and countless visual pictures.

Overall, when we utilize the treasure of regular meditation, we further prepare ourselves to receive any significant benefit from an entheogenic inter-phase. On some levels, they become two sides of one coin, however distinctly different, the two modes of experience are. It's rally no ore extreme that our waking and dreaming modes of experience, except for the presence of the chemical in our brains.

And one last thought... when one reaches the higher planes of consciousness, so sought after through meditation and psychedelics, it has gradually dawned on me that there is no difference between Heaven and Earth. There is no real difference between Iso-self and Omniself (nature, humanity and God).

From my loftiest windowsill, I have seen what I believe to be one supreme truth, that there is one Sacred presence innately pulsing within the whole phenomenon of life. It will forever be an unbroken, indivisible and eternally transcendent vibration resembling what we perceive of as purest love and radiant, ecstatic bliss. A knowledge which has no limit, fills the understanding of the dreamer, and thus, the awakening begins anew!

This makes a human being ponder of what we perceive of as material... is truly spiritual, all along. Yes, I believe everything is God and there are no membranes dividing anything, that is just our dreamscape. We dream were something, other than no-thing recognizable or concrete. We may well create ourselves, just to experience what it is like to be a subjective point of being. Curiosity? Desire? Playfulness?

Or so I believe and I seem to think...