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Overpopulation Options
 
ohayoco
#1 Posted : 3/22/2009 2:34:49 AM
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An interesting article. I was brought up being told stuff like this... but still it's a bit scary to now read it in a respected newspaper.
Your thoughts? I say buy land, 3 acres for a couple, 5 for a family or if you can afford it!

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/mar/22/environment-population-conference-britain wrote:
Britain set to become most populous country in EU

Soaring population will force millions to flee water shortages in search of refuge - and, according to new figures, Britain will be one of the world's 'lifeboats'. On the eve of a major population conference, Science Editor Robin McKie asks: could the UK cope?

* Robin McKie, science editor
* The Observer, Sunday 22 March 2009
* Article history

Britain will become one of the world's major destinations for immigrants as the world heats up and populations continue to soar. Statistics from the United Nations show that, on average, every year more than 174,000 people will be added to the numbers in the UK and that this trend will continue for the next four decades.

By then, only the United States and Canada will be receiving more overseas settlers, says the UN. This increase in British numbers is likely to put considerable strain on the country's transport, energy and housing, experts warned last week.

"The US and Canada will be taking in more people than us every year by 2050 but they are huge countries," said demographer Professor Tom Dyson of the London School of Economics. "Britain, by contrast, is a small nation. We will feel the impact of all these people. There will be no getting out of it. Simply controlling our carbon dioxide emissions will become harder and harder as more and more people arrive on our shores. In addition, housing, water supplies and transport will be strained and will need greatly increased investment."

However, other experts say such increases could also produce benefits for the nation, bringing in immigrants who could provide a vital supply of young workers. These demographers point out that, by 2050, more than a third of the UK population will be aged 60 or over. By then there will be a desperate need for bus drivers, care-workers and others to keep the country running and immigrants could fill this gap.

In addition, there is the issue of humanitarian responsibility. Britain is likely to be one of the few nations to survive the worst effects of climate change while other nations, particularly those in the developing world, have their farmland and fishing grounds destroyed. It could be argued that the UK has a moral duty to provide shelter for as many refugees as our shores can support.

But deciding what numbers the country might support is a highly controversial issue and will be the focus of a conference on sustainable populations which will be held this week in London. Organised by the Optimum Population Trust, the meeting will hear that the United Nation expects that by 2050 the world will be inhabited by around 9.2 billion people, compared to its current level of 6.8 billion. Every day, the equivalent of the population of a large city is added to the numbers of humans, a rise that is now straining the planet's resources to breaking point.

At the same time, Britain's population will rise from its current level of 61 million to 72 million by 2050. The nation will then be the most populous in the European Union, outstripping Germany, whose population will slump from 82 million to 71 million people as its immigration figures plummet.

The idea that Britain could one day support such numbers has been questioned by Aubrey Manning, emeritus professor of natural history at Edinburgh University. "There are far too many people living in Britain already," he said. "Once our population passed the 20 million level around 1850, it became too numerous. That is the figure at which we could no longer sustain our population from our own resources. We are now three times over the limit and heading for more. We have long passed the line of sustainability. As for the planet, its maximum sustainable population is no more than 3 billion, I would say."

The rise in population indicates that the country is set for some considerable overcrowding. Britain's land area is only two-thirds that of Germany, yet it will soon support the same number of citizens. "This population rise, brought about by rising immigration, will strain our infrastructures - our housing and water supplies - and bring very little advantage to the nation," said Dyson, who will address the conference. "Nor do I think these extra people will be able to help in looking after our older people."

But these points were disputed by Tim Finch, head of immigration for the Institute of Public Policy Research. "A healthy economy sucks in young, educated people and that is what has happened to this country over the past couple of decades. These young immigrants have helped keep the country running as our population has started to get older and they will become more important as the decades go past and that ageing intensifies. The immigration system picks out the best and the brightest of immigrants and they will be of great service to Britain. That is just a fact."

The problem is that discussions of population numbers in the past have been associated with talk of eugenics and with attempts at controlling ethnic populations. As a result, there is little discussion today of the subject or its impact on the environment, a point stressed by James Lovelock, the distinguished environmental scientist. "The subject has become a taboo, a matter of political correctness," he said last week. "And that is dangerous, for the numbers of humans on Earth are going to be crucial to our survival."

Manning added: "We have stopped worrying about population because other issues - acid rain, climate change and others - have occupied our attention and because past fears of global food shortages were proved unfounded. But the subject will not go away. Our planet is now dangerously overpopulated."

Another conference speaker, Chris Rapley, director of the Science Museum, in London, agreed. "We desperately need to bring down our emissions of greenhouse gases but the truth is we will never get the contribution of each individual down to zero. Only the lack of the individual can bring it to zero, and that is an issue for population control which we need to talk about openly and urgently."

Rapley will tell delegates that the Earth's population is now rising at a rate of around 80 million a year. "That is roughly the same as the number of unwanted pregnancies across the world," he said. "If we can prevent unwanted pregnancies, we can halt this spiral in our numbers."

To do that, contraception will have to become universally available - and political and religious opposition to birth control removed. If that happened, the world's population could be stabilised to around 8 billion by 2050, added Rapley.

But many climatologists believe that by then life on the planet will already have become dangerously unpleasant. Temperature rises will have started to have devastating impacts on farmland, water supplies and sea levels. Humans - increasing both in numbers and dependence on food from devastated landscapes - will then come under increased pressure. The end result will be apocalyptic, said Lovelock. By the end of the century, the world's population will suffer calamitous declines until numbers are reduced to around 1 billion or less. "By 2100, pestilence, war and famine will have dealt with the majority of humans," he said.

One of the few places to survive the worst impacts will be Britain. "Our climate will be one of the least affected by global warming," added Lovelock. "As a result, everyone will want to live here. We will become one of the world's lifeboats. The trouble, of course, will be that, even if we wanted to, we will not be able to pick up everyone. There will be some hard decisions to make."

Many experts predict that disaster will strike long before 2050. Last week, the government's chief scientific adviser, Professor John Beddington, said the planet faced "a perfect storm" of food, energy and water shortages which could strike in less than 20 years. In a speech to the Sustainable Development Commission conference in London, Beddington said that one in three people were already facing water shortages and that by 2030 world water demand would increase by more than 30%; energy demands would increase by 50%. "There are dramatic problems out there, particularly with water and food, but energy also, and they are all intimately connected."

In the long run, however, humanity should benefit, said Lovelock. "If you look at our species over the past million years, there have been a number of major climatic events, some devastating. Between the Ice Ages, sea levels rose by 120 metres and tracts of land were flooded. Yet that period covers the time that early humans emerged and evolved into Homo sapiens

"Often our numbers were brought to catastrophically low levels by climate change and numbers were reduced to only a couple of thousand on a couple of occasions. Every time things got bad, our numbers plummeted and we improved as a species. That is certainly going to happen again over the next 100 years."
The world by numbers

1 million Britain's population in Roman times

6 million Britain's population around the time of the English civil war

47 million Britain's population in 1945

52,000 The number of tonnes of carbon dioxide pumped into the atmosphere every minute

267 The average number of births every minute worldwide; the average number of deaths per minute is 118

78 million The planet's annual population increase, a number roughly equivalent to the population of Germany

1 million The number of chimpanzees in Africa in 1900. Today, thanks to habitat loss and hunting, numbers have dropped to around 15,000

38.4 The median age in the UK rose from 34.1 years in 1971 to 38.4 in 2003 and is projected to reach 43.3 in 2031. (The median is the age that separates the oldest half of the population from the youngest.)

10 billion The number of chickens eaten by man worldwide every year

500 million The number of ducks eaten every year

1.3 billion The population of China

1.2 billion India's population

500 million The population of the EU

74 million The number of barrels of oil pumped daily across the planet; 15 million tonnes of coal are dug every day

9 Between 2010 and 2050, nine countries will account for half of the world's projected population increase: India, Pakistan, Nigeria, Ethiopia, the United States, the Democratic Republic of Congo, China, Bangladesh, Tanzania

• Sources: World Clock; Poodwaddle; UN Population Division
Everything I write is fictional roleplay. Obviously! End tribal genocide: www.survival-international.org Quick petitions for meaningful change: www.avaaz.org/en/
End prohibition: www.leap.cc www.tdpf.org.uk And "Feeling Good" by David D.Burns MD is a very useful book.
 

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VisualDistortion
#2 Posted : 3/22/2009 7:46:56 AM

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The UK can handle it, they're on a fricken island. Stop all incoming immigrants.
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Jorkest
#3 Posted : 3/22/2009 2:29:20 PM

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where are they gonna get all their food?
it's a sound
 
ohayoco
#4 Posted : 3/22/2009 2:50:10 PM
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The article title was focused on the UK because that's where it's from (and even with our borders closed the country already relies on food from abroad because of its numbers). It goes on to explain that it's going to be a worldwide problem, and that the USA and Canada will be facing similar problems. I heard that government agencies are predicting that climate migration will be the biggest challenge we face. I HEARD the CIA sees this as the USA's biggest future problem alongside Islamic fundamentalism (though quietly ignoring their homegrown problem of Christian Right fundamentalism!).

Some may say closing the borders would be unethical... are we to leave people unlucky enough to be born in countries that will become ravaged by famine to simply die, when the consensus is that it was the extravagance of the West that contributed most to global warming? (Please let's not turn this into another argument about what caused global warming, that point is not critical to the argument as one can simply say that the world is all of ours to share).

I can see only two logical ways out:

1. Disease/famine. This is a horrible scenario. Countries shut borders and let the rest of the world die off. Or, a disease like AIDS or bird flu kills off much of the world population 'naturally'. Or, some assholes design a deadly disease with a genetic target and commit genocide of entire races.

2. A 'two-child policy': not specifically that every family is only allowed 2 children, more that each person is allowed one nominated child as their 'replacement'. If a child dies, you may find another replacement. Maybe you can even sell your right to a replacement if you so wish, or likewise buy an extra right. Countries sign up to this policy. Any country that does not sign up to the policy is 'out of the loop' and borders are closed to it until the policy is enforced. I am aware of how disastrous the Chinese one-child policy was, but this is at least a less drastic measure.

Both horrible scenarios. But what's happening at the moment is even worse... right now we have 'sensible' people opting to have 2 or less children, while (I don't mean to offend here this is just an opinion) those who are 'selfish' about the population problem continue to have as large families as possible, because their religion tells them to with no regard as to the consequences. Hence, the selfish and the zealots inherit the earth.
Everything I write is fictional roleplay. Obviously! End tribal genocide: www.survival-international.org Quick petitions for meaningful change: www.avaaz.org/en/
End prohibition: www.leap.cc www.tdpf.org.uk And "Feeling Good" by David D.Burns MD is a very useful book.
 
endlessness
#5 Posted : 3/22/2009 3:31:00 PM

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but the UK couldnt close the borders to the european community, for example.. All european residents have the right to go there and to deny that would create serious implications ...

Plus, countries are not self-sustainable, there is a lot of external dependency, I dont know how the borders could be effectively closed nowadays when one needs products that comes from outside to survive and therefore will be a 'hostage' to some extent to these necessities.

I think that the population and all other problems we face cannot be solved in such a short term as to prevent an ecological crisis, its already in move.. Of course we could make it a bit better, but I think that in the end, we need a long term plan of education so that our grand grand children may have the world in a not so bad state.
 
ohayoco
#6 Posted : 3/22/2009 3:37:35 PM
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endlessness wrote:
but the UK couldnt close the borders to the european community, for example.. All european residents have the right to go there and to deny that would create serious implications

I think any such implications would pale in comparison to what's coming anyway. The financial situation and talks of major reform are I believe marking an ending of the previous inertia... I think many things that would once never have been considered will be given serious thought... within my lifetime, way before 2050, the world will be a VERY different place.
Everything I write is fictional roleplay. Obviously! End tribal genocide: www.survival-international.org Quick petitions for meaningful change: www.avaaz.org/en/
End prohibition: www.leap.cc www.tdpf.org.uk And "Feeling Good" by David D.Burns MD is a very useful book.
 
Jorkest
#7 Posted : 3/22/2009 3:59:57 PM

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Master of plants wrote:
Cure for overpopulation is a breaking in to the hyperspace.



while SWIM was learning about hyperspace..he was telepathically told this solution as well..instead of traveling to another physical place..become a dimensional pilgrim..SWIM has seen the place some of us MAY go..its like a bunker in between space and time

it was the only logical solution at that time..SWIM feels we are already making the split happen..and he feels like people that are shifting to other dimensions may not even realize its happening..but SWIM can see these slight hints that it is..

now dont freak out on me for saying this stuff..it was just what SWIM's experiences had been like at the time..and it was quite obvious to him..
it's a sound
 
Jorkest
#8 Posted : 3/22/2009 4:04:21 PM

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and look at all the new disease that our world has been facing..more and more people everyday are getting seriously ill..i feel like the government has a RESPONSIBILITY to the human race as a whole to start killing off as many of us as possible..i dont like the idea either but..the other option is complete annihilation
it's a sound
 
ohayoco
#9 Posted : 3/22/2009 4:18:28 PM
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Jorkest wrote:
i feel like the government has a RESPONSIBILITY to the human race as a whole to start killing off as many of us as possible..i dont like the idea either but..the other option is complete annihilation

Whaaat?! Don't go down that road please, I like the full-of-love-hippy Jorkest! Are you aware that that was exactly the thinking at the start of the last century that inspired the Nazi's 'final solution'? Some German guy made a theory about the 'struggle of the races' and how while conflict is bad, it is 'natural' and necessary for the races to conquer and annihilate each other to control finite resources. His nasty ideas were used to justify imperialism, including early atrocities in Africa, and culminated in racist fascism in the West and eventually the Nazi holocaust.
And governments do NOT have the sovereignty to murder, they may well be a tyranny of the majority but the majority does not have rights over whether others live or die. We can solve the problem more fairly if we try! Smile
Everything I write is fictional roleplay. Obviously! End tribal genocide: www.survival-international.org Quick petitions for meaningful change: www.avaaz.org/en/
End prohibition: www.leap.cc www.tdpf.org.uk And "Feeling Good" by David D.Burns MD is a very useful book.
 
appelseen
#10 Posted : 3/22/2009 6:38:45 PM

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The way I see it, population growth is a problem because of scarce resources, not because of too many human beings. If people would grow their own food, and enrich the soil, and plant gardens -- there would not be overpopulation.

Ultimately though we have to migrate to outer space. Since it doesn't look like this is going to happen soon, I guess we have to prepare for troublesome times ahead, by becoming as self-sufficient as possible.

PLEASE NOTE: Contents of this post belong to an ongoing hypermedia performance project that spans across different media, including Internet message boards. All incidents, situations, institutions, governments and people are fictional and any similarity, without satiric intent, of characters or person s living or dead, is strictly coincidental.
 
VisualDistortion
#11 Posted : 3/22/2009 9:18:41 PM

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Dudes, you can stop immigration into your country and still import products that you need. Plus disease and famine will reign anyways.
You lock the door, and throw away the key

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Jorkest
#12 Posted : 3/23/2009 4:12:21 AM

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hey dude..im just painting a picture..if i was in government though..i wouldnt WANT to take that route..but hey...people are gonna die anyway..might as well have some fun killin them Pleased

and really..you cant really see them trying to KEEP us alive can you??
it's a sound
 
VisualDistortion
#13 Posted : 3/23/2009 7:57:01 AM

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The government will let us suffer and die as long as they are well fed and live in peace. We must expose them to the depravity and despair of the world.
You lock the door, and throw away the key

There's someone in my head but it's not me
 
deedle-doo
#14 Posted : 3/23/2009 4:09:04 PM

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The central plains of north america could feed the entire world for 100s of years if it were used wisely. No more beef and poultry, no more crop subsidies. Just grains and soy by the thousands of trillions of tons.

The capitalist market will not cause this to happen though. Western people will not be content eating simple grains and amino acid supplements. People in pre-industrialized regions cannot pay a farmer more than the US government subsidies.

But this is great. This means all we need is a philosophical shift. Much easier than building a mission to Andromeda or setting up a lottery of death. Large scale shifts in philosophy occur all the time in history. It isn't that hard. Our short lifespans give us the illusion of constancy but modern industrial lifestyle has only been occurring for maybe 50-100 years. The next definable phase could begin any time (perhaps it has allready began, who knows what future historians will see as the beginning of a new era.)


It does not matter how many kids you have. It matters much more how you teach them. Paris Hilton, an only child, uses orders of magnitude more resources than my entire family. You can have ten kids and teach them to live simply and to contribute. I think this is the best any of us can do to help spur the philosophical shift needed to feed our planet.
 
polytrip
#15 Posted : 3/23/2009 4:38:27 PM
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We should just stop eating meat, commercialize nuclear fusion and embrace democracy and human rights. In the industrialized country's the rise in polulation is basically the result of immigration, otherwise the population of the U.S. the E.U. and japan would rather decline. It is possible the same is gonna happen to china and india and many other nations. The population of the world could just as well stabilize within a few decades or even start to decline soon. There are just some countries where women are seen as merely breeding machines. Once the emancipation of women will have reached the most backwards parts of this world as well, you may expect a sudden change in the demographic statistics.
 
Jorkest
#16 Posted : 3/23/2009 6:40:44 PM

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well the problem i see with stopping the meat consumption is that SWIM lives in a very cold climate..and yes there are substitutes for eating meat..but in the winter time when its -2 degrees F...eating a nice slab of deer or beef is much more helpful than eating a whole bunch of beans..its kinda the only way i can get by...in some climates i feel its just not possible to not eat meat and be healthy..granted some people do..but i work outside..and i need that fat and protein the meat provides to keep going and stay warm..im sure there are alternatives..but i live in a small community..very separated from massive super markets and diversity..so it would be very expensive and difficult to completely cut out my meat consumption
it's a sound
 
endlessness
#17 Posted : 3/23/2009 7:02:31 PM

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hey jorkest... I respect the way you feel and you must decide for yourself, of course.. but I just want to tell you that I work outside also and feel that I get all I needed from a vegetarian diet.. Its a myth that one doesnt get enough fat and proteins from vegetarian diets, you just need to know what to eat..

I have friends who are capoeira/jiu jitsu fighters that are vegetarians and they dont lack any energies from it. Granted I never lived in so cold places but I honestly cant see how appart from the psychological aspect, you cannot be perfectly fine with a vegetarian diet..

there is the issue of course that you live in a small place, so I cant know what you can and cannot get... Can you get soya meat (not the ready one, those that looked like small balls, where you make yourself what you want with it)? Can you get free running chicken eggs? Can you get olive oil? Can you get nuts of different types? Whole wheat bread? Good selection of vegetables ? Different beans and seeds to make sprouts? Btw, sprouts is a good tip, they are very nutritive and give an amazing energy.. I eat sprouts every morning. There's plenty of nice recipes if you are interested Very happy

I am definitely not trying to 'convert' you or anything, I believe each one acts according to their conscience.. I just felt that there might be an interest from you to change the diet but you feel you cant because of energy/proteins/availability, and maybe with tips and ideas you could if you wanted... but whatever, just letting you know we are here to give ideas, if wanted Very happy
 
VisualDistortion
#18 Posted : 3/23/2009 8:24:28 PM

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Man, I can't imagine what I would do if anyone ever tried to make me a vegetarian(not saying you guys are). I'd probably eat them to get my point accross that I will never stop eating meat.
You lock the door, and throw away the key

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ohayoco
#19 Posted : 3/23/2009 9:20:20 PM
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And how long exactly have you guys been vegan for? SWIM managed a year and a half as a veggie before he withered away. My female friend has been veggie with a healthy diet from BIRTH and at the age of 30 now has anaemia, and supplements didn't help. She has started eating a little meat now because she's fed up of it. Another female friend who has also been veggie from birth is still veggie, but admits to having dizzy spells (as SWIM got). Another veggie one is the girl who senses ghosts, gets messages from the universe and unfortunately suffers from episodes. A guy SWIM knew whose parents were veggie, and he is also, has no colour in his eyes- completely white- and is a human sloth. And those are the only veggie friends I have, a sorry lot compared to my omnivorous buddies! Yes, some people can take it, but not everyone. Don't suggest that this isn't true because people who 'fail' at being veggie have often tried very hard, and it's a little insulting when veggies go on at them about it. As for vegans, they seem to be dropping like flies, at least I hear them moan about their health problems, and they sometimes look SO ill, dark rings round their eyes and sickly skin.

But this rant is beside the point really- the 'everyone goes veggie' answer just delays the problem a little, it doesn't solve it. Plus, chickens and pigs can be reared in the forest and fish in the ocean, so there's no reason (other than the ethical one to not kill) to need to stop eating meat entirely.

I do agree to an extent in that the Green take on meat is to eat some but less, like a traditional Chinese diet. This would give us a little breathing space. But other measures are needed... we must control our numbers!

Also, any comments on my 'replacement' idea, when every person is allowed to nominate one new life as their replacement?
Everything I write is fictional roleplay. Obviously! End tribal genocide: www.survival-international.org Quick petitions for meaningful change: www.avaaz.org/en/
End prohibition: www.leap.cc www.tdpf.org.uk And "Feeling Good" by David D.Burns MD is a very useful book.
 
endlessness
#20 Posted : 3/23/2009 9:24:46 PM

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ill open a topic about this so we can discuss separately Smile
 
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