sinse when do tropanes elicit that type of experience that is spoken of in relation to the kykeon? Look at tropane use in other cultures and the context that arises. I fail to see the parallels.

There is basically pictures carved into the stone that look identical (to me at least) to phalaris aquatica. I dont see pictures of any tropane plants.
I would buy the mushroom theory before any tropane bearing plants, other than the use of them as an additive to a mixture containing true psychedelics.

Yes it was what i wanted to say, some tropane have a big place in theis part of the word.

It could have been added in small quantities to give the experience a more visual, confrontational &
fear-based experience. But in that case I wouldn't have expected such glowing reports & nothing to
have ever gone terribly wrong at Eleusis. Tropanes are just too sinister, even in little amounts IME.



When I look at Arab & persian arts & architecture, as displayed in the "DMT influence on Architecture"-thread,
I really feel that the founders/creators of these art styles(predating Islam by a long shot) have gotten their
inspiration smoalking massive amounts of spice or drinking big mugs of middle-eastern Anahuasca.

When I look at Ancient Greek arts I do not see this DMT-influence very much. Were the ancient Eleusians known
to be culturally, artisticly & architecturally known to be much different from their Anthenian contemporaries?

I've only seen some Eleusian pottery & filligree in stone, but they seemed pretty Athenian styled to me.
Seems logical since Eleusis was just a stonesthrow away from Athens. I guess finding some typical Eleusian
art (poetry, philosophy, sculpture, painting, music..anything) made by any of those who took the Kykeon
could help us get a clue what Entheogen could have inspired such works of art.

I must say I'm finding Anahuasca an increasingly more credible candidate for the Kykeon.
Somehow great inventions/knowledge seem to pop up in different cultures all around the world,
seemingly unrelated. Like Pyramids, Coca leaves, Metal smelting/crafting have appeared & evolved
in many different cultures independantly, perhaps Ayahuasca has too.

..it is not explicitly stated afaik that psilocybin mushrooms were consumed, however in "Food for Centaurs" Robert Graves studied the cyclops cults remaining in remote parts of greece and their connection to psychoactive mushrooms, presenting a strong case..also, the carving i attached in the phalaris thread here seems suggestive..but not conclusive, sure..

Phalaris seems easy to imagine discovering (unlike complex ways to render toxic ergot less harmful)

and SKA, yes Phalaris aquatica AQ1 means "Alkaloid Quotient 1" meaning 1%..when discovered by G. Samorini in Italy in the mid 90s it was the highest known content of DMT in a plant.. (since then mimosa and a. acuminata have passed it)..and it has been successfully bioassayed in ayahuasca analogues..

& as jamie says, there are carvings of phalaris/wheat like grass at Eleusis..and a mint is known..but certainly no mention of Tropanes, which i doubt could be useful in the ordered serenity of the rites from what we know..

I have found Mentha Pulegium (Pennyroyal) to be reliably and definitely psychoactive. When smoked there is a canabis like intoxication with a very definite visual signature. In fact- for me at least- even sniffing crushed foliage has a slight stoning effect. Of course the identification of Mentha Pulegium as one of the ingredients of the Kykeon has been questioned in some circles, however the fact that such an easily cultivated and obviously active plant has been so strongly associated with the potion is food for thought. I found it odd that this herb- outside of my own expeimentation- has been so little explored by psychonauts. It incidentally makes a smooth and tasty smoke for enhanced leaf experiments, providing a twist to the experience of its own.
Of course the problem in relation to the Kykeon is that the Kykeon is an oral preperation. Pennyroyal tea has been rather widely employed as a herbal remedy, the Nirvan song anybody? In no accounts of herbal remedy use are there mention of any profound- nor any- psychedelic effects. Upping the dose is not an option either; large doses of Pennyroyal essential oil can be extremely toxic.
So we have a puported ingredient of the Kykeon that is- sugested by my own experimentation- able to deliver the goods; a social, suggestable pyschedelic state. However, only via smoked administration. To be the active in the potion one would need either an ingredient mitigating the toxicity enabling a psychoactive dose to be consumed orally without the horrid liver failure and multiorgan collapse or perhaps something activating the Pennyroyal orally and comparitively safe dosages. Perhaps the actives could be TOMSO'd by a Barley beer. Just idle speculation...

Data seem to suggest (I left some info here) that a water mint extraction, filtering the oils if present, would be minimally toxic since the potentially dangerous compounds are barely soluble in water. Of course only an assay would tell if the psychoactivity you mention is due precisely to those oils (menthol, menthone, pulegone) or to other compounds.

And the use of alcoholic beverages in the eleusinian mysteries is unlikely, not only due to the absence of references to use of other psychoactives (with the exception of hemlock, used by the hierophants to kill their libido during the ceremonies) but because Demeter specifically refuses ingesting wine and drinks kykeon instead.

Whether mint could be strongly active by itself after the fasting and the rituals or not should be seen, but the stages of the visionary experience in the 6th day sound quite deep... of course there is the possibility that the experience was merely induced by fasting, set, setting and a mint, but then I don't see why the recipe would be kept secret under penalty of death, and aristocrats in Athens would gamble with their banishing to get it for their parties, among other reasons...

..interesting and thanks fourthripley..thanks for mentioning pennyroyal..
to add to Vosdel's last comment..
..from the Homeric Hymn to DeMTer..(c.AD 600) on the Rites at Eleusis:


and an assortment of ancient quotes on the mystery school of Eleusis:
Aristeides 22.13

Synesius Dio 1133 quoted in http://eleusinianmysteries.org/

Mesomedes Hymn 5

Church Father Clement of Alexandria c.AD 200

http://www.academia.edu/1517225/Initiation_into_the_Eleusinian_Mysteries_a_thin_description
.

Quote:
"Within this hall, the mystics were made
to experience the most bloodcurdling sensations of horror
and the most enthusiastic ecstasy of joy."
Aristeides 22.13

That bloodcurdling horror reference indicates that the Kykeon was most likely
a psychedelic, not merely an extatic brew. It seems to be a confrontation with
both the angelic & the demonic in oneself/psychic realms/divine realms.

Psychedelics just fit this bill perfectly. Anahuasca seems the most likely.
The grass was easily collected without raising much suspicions. So is the mint,
or whichever other MAOI plant they may have used(P.Harmala still seems a possible alternative)
Also, simmering the grass & the mint in a pot of water for a number of hours would have been easy to
keep secret. In long, warm summers they could gather more than they'd need for that year's ceremony &
dry and save that for Ceremonies after Summers when the grass & mint-harvests were too small.


However this grass&mint Anahuasca would likely give some degree of a purge, right?
You'd somewhat expect there to at least be some references to a purge, if there was
one. Has anyone ever tried a Phalaris & Mint based Anahuasca? I wonder if there'd
be a purge...

Do you think it can be a good hypothesis for kikeon

^..unless i've missed something, there has never been a reported successful bioassay of an ergot based brew resulting in pleasant entheogenic effects..there is all this speculation and no one tries or at least reports it..so horrible is ergot poisoning that i suspect no one has been brave enough to test their theory..

Phalaris, on the other hand, seems a much more straightforward and potentially less toxic native Greek source..and we have plenty of bioassays of it..

Thanks nene

Allthough it is unlikely to be really related to the Kykeon, appearantly the Hebrew name for the Castor oil plant(Ricinus communis) is "Kikayon, קיקיון"

Allthough Ricinus communis seeds contain the amazingly lethal poison Ricin, Ricin appearantly is not found
in oil pressed from these seeds(due to the oil being heated for long periods).

Allthough probably unrelated, I found the phonetic resemblance of Kikeon to Kikayon to be striking.

i was flicking through Graham Hancock's 'Supernatural' on the way back home yesterday and came across an interesting passage on pg 636 which states:



...this was sourced from Paul Devereux's 'Long Trip: A prehistory of Psychedelia' pg 82 though I can't find much more information on whether Demeter was indeed also known as erysibe

..'Erysibe' as far as i know means 'rust'..which can refer to ergot or other types of grain parasite..
but i don't know of any reference to Demeter being called this..

G. Hancock really needs to cite this..(or cite what he cited cited..) ..where is this from?

Demeter, usually taken mean 'Mother' or 'Grain-Mother' or 'Barley-Mother' or 'Earth-Mother'..

my case against the popular ergot/kykeon theory i've made already..

but definitely to do with grains (grasses) i agree it is..
.

if you spend time paying attention to and harvesting grasses, you will notice, especially with wild grasses that they can get a reddish purple tint to them. This might have to do with tryptamine content or might not.

The Eleusian mysteries never cease to fascinate me.
I just can't give it a rest. MUST...FIND OUT....WHAT....KYKEON.....WAS!


What we have here now are various, fragmented historic accounts of Eleusis, the cult of Demeter & the Kykeon.
What would really help in investigating this mystery would be if all references to the cult of Demeter & their
Kykeon would be all bundled together. Either here or in a PDF.
Or are the references mentioned here really all we have?

Ok I can't resist adding my 2c..

Rhododendron ponticum honey?
Read up on when the romans came marching through greece ..
Also somebody posted a link to some people in the himalayas who go out to harvest it.

And does anybody know of any bioassays of simple ergot extract? I'd almost be willing to bet that while it does cause severe vasoconstriction, this could be countered and with a carefully controlled doses it might just be below the threshold of killing you.
Keeping in mind that for societies without strong psychedelic use more subtle levels coupled with imagination and ritual could still be mind-blowing enough..

I searched for some information of Rhodondendron ponticum and
found this on the toxins found in honey produced from this particulair Rhodondendron's flower nectar.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Grayanotoxin



Vomitting, Dizzyness, sweating, muscle weakness, low blood pressure... Sounds pretty miserable. :/
Doesn't seem to induce any psychological effects either. Why would you think this could have been in the Kykeon?

Oh certainly but there is also reported psychoactive effects mostly more of the type of alcohol but also with more of a 'holy communion' type thing going on .. It's just conjecture really but I'm pretty sure that honey was listed as a component at some point and coming from greece.. although honey can contain numerous psychoactive compounds I'm sure. In controlled doses in a similar way to the myriad of admixtures within ayahuasca it could certainly be a part.

hummus wrote:
..No..
this was one of the main points i made previously against the ergot theory of the Kykeon...i know of no such bioassay..even by the original proponents of the ergot theory (who i assume didn't have enough faith in the theory to actually test it)

except, of course, well known ergot poisoning, which includes
painful seizures and spasms, diarrhea, paresthesias, itching, mania, headaches, nausea and vomiting, and gangrene..

St. Anthony's Fire..
i don't think small doses are much fun either..
.