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Eleusinian Mysteries ~ What was the Kykeon? Options
 
endlessness
#21 Posted : 1/2/2010 9:29:01 AM

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ms_manic_minxx wrote:

(What fumes came out of the earth at Delphi...?)


im pretty sure I've read this was already answered... It was some volatile hydrocarbons or some other kind of gas, coming from a crack that was just under the oracle's room.. Im trying to remember where I read this, maybe in scientific american... But anyways the impression I had when I read that a couple of years ago, was that the answer they came up with, with the help of geologists and scans of the underground formation, was starting to be generally accepted. Maybe im wrong though and it was just a hypothesis.

As for the kykeon, I remember also making a thread about this. I also wondered how comes they used so consistently and safely something as dangerous as ergot, so my question was that if any other of the ingredients would turn the dangerous alkaloids into something less toxic, sort of like the supposed lsa to lsh conversion with peppermint. Or otherwise, what about the difference between claviceps purpurea and paspali? is one less toxic than the other?
 

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ElusiveMind
#22 Posted : 1/12/2010 5:09:22 AM

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ms_manic_minxx wrote:

(What fumes came out of the earth at Delphi...?)


In the documentary Decoding the Past - Doomsday 2012 they say that in 1998 they found two fault lines that ran right down the center of temple at Delphi that spewed up ethylene gas, which is similar to the practice of glue sniffing.
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Tangarine_Dreams
#23 Posted : 9/7/2010 8:35:41 PM

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there is no way they knew about water sol/insol of ergotaloids. i mean i guess its easy to figure, make it with water vs boose and compare, but still, noone fucks with ergot. Have you ever baked a loaf of bread full of deathcaps to see if they wont kill you if u make food with them? i doubt it. then again someone may have been tasked with finding a way to make blighted grain eatable. if a township's whole reserve had been infected it may have been worth a few lives to find a way to still eat it.

i read something about the greek and roman seers also using some kind of tropane drink, independent of the ethylene gas deal at delphi. but i was maybe 15 when i was reading about this, can anyone speak to this?

if it was sweetened with honey id bet there is a better chance of it being mad honey than cultivated ergot. what bee pollinated flower grows most in the area this drink was from?

these people may have also been eating an maoi every day or somethign stupid liek that too causing ti to be active for them and not us. afterall they all had lead poisioning from their pipes/dishes/tools. maybe pennyroyale intoxicates you if you have pb pzning?

theres just so many unknowable aspects of historical psychs to figure many of them totally. i am, as always, infatuated with this topic.
 
SKA
#24 Posted : 2/16/2013 7:56:50 PM
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Had to dig this pearl up too. I'm on a treasure hunt.

This should interrest you guys too:
Quote:
How did the experimental conditions of Smith and Timmis (ST), in which ergine was
produced from ergotinine, differ from those of Jacobs and Craig (JC), in which lysergic acid
was produced from ergotinine? Fundamentally, the difference was a matter of concentration
and temperature. ST refluxed ergotinine for one hour in a 1.0 M solution of potassium
hydroxide (KOH) in methanol, which boils at 65° C, while JC refluxed ergotinine for an hour
in a 1.4 M solution of KOH in water, which of course boils at 100° C. The reason that ST
used methanol is that pure crystalline ergotinine
21
is insoluble in water and unreactive even in
boiling aqueous KOH. JC found that the resinous material remaining after ergotinine was
rapidly dissolved in methanolic KOH and then evaporated would slowly dissolve with
liberation of ammonia in boiling aqueous 1.4 M KOH. Martínková, Kren, et al. have been
able to maximize the production of ergine/isoergine from ergotamine by using a less
concentrated solution of KOH. They produce a mixture consisting principally of ergine and
isoergine (total: 10.3 g) with relatively small amounts of lysergic acid/isolysergic acids (total:
1.65 g) from 30 g of ergotamine by refluxing for two hours in a 0.60 M solution of KOH, the
solvent being a 1:3 mixture of water:ethyl alcohol.
22
These results can be compared to a
standard procedure for producing lysergic acid from ergotamine as given in Shulgin’s
TIHKAL, where 3.5 g lysergic acid is obtained by stirring 10 g ergotamine in a 1.2 M aqueous
KOH at 70° C for 3 hours.
23
We suggest that conditions of solubility, pH, and temperature which would be equivalent
in effect to ST’s process, and result in the conversion of ergot to ergine, could be readily
obtained by boiling crude ergot for several hours in water to which the ashes of wood or
other plant material, perhaps barley, had been added. These are, of course, conditions easily
achieved by the hierophants of Eleusis. Why would these conditions produce ergine? Wood
ash contains potassium carbonate (pearlash), a strong base which for millennia was the usual
material used to produce soap from animal or vegetable fats — an hydrolysis process
(saponification) almost identical to the hydrolysis of the amide bonds of ergot. Wood ash has
a pH of about 12, while the 0.60 M KOH used by MK has a pH of almost 14. But the Greek
priests would have employed water as a solvent, since distilled methanol or ethanol was then
unknown, and the resulting higher temperatures (and quite likely longer cooking times, which
would tend to concentrate both product and alkali reagent) would compensate for the less
concentrated base. As for the solubility problem encountered by ST and JC, we suggest that it
would not obtain when crude ergot was used instead of crystalline ergotinine. This is because
crude ergot contains from 30-35% fatty acids

24
which would both solubilize the ergot
alkaloids of their own accord and even more so by virtue of the micelles formed when these
fats were saponified by the hot pearlash.
25
Why would the hierophants consider ashes as a suitable ingredient in a sacred potion?
We suggest the possibility that some sort of symbolism involving the resurgence of life from
inanimate ashes may be involved. Kerényi points to a symbolic cluster of images surrounding
birth in death, birth in fire, the ashes of the cremated votaries — all linked to the hope of life
after death.
26
Persephone herself was looked upon as the goddess of fire, for “through her
power the evil element was transformed into a kindly one.”
27
Perhaps also the ashes
symbolized the immortality which Demeter wished to bestow on the little prince Demophoön,
who was able to thrive and grow without food as long as she secretly placed him each night in
the fire like a log. When Demophoön’s mother, Metaneira, observes Demeter’s strange actionMixing the Kykeon
15
and protests it, Demeter takes the boy from the fire — but now he is doomed with the rest of
mankind to death. “Unknowing are ye mortals and thoughtless: ye know not whether good or
evil approaches.”
28
An augmenting motive to any of the preceding is simply the reverence
naturally felt towards the ashes remaining after a whole-burnt offering to the gods on a sacred
altar. These are not ashes to be simply disposed of as one would ordinary hearth ashes; they
partake of the sacral nature of the offering, and it is natural to attempt to incorporate them in
some further sacral function. The same instinct can be seen at work in the custom, observed to
this day in the Roman Catholic tradition, of reserving the ashes of the palms blessed on Palm
Sunday to be used on Ash Wednesday of the following liturgical season.
Would a potion containing enough ashes to hydrolyze ergot alkaloids be too basic and
caustic to drink? We suggest several possibilities: most simply, a solution of potassium
carbonate, if allowed to stand exposed to the air for a few days, would absorb enough carbon
dioxide from the air to be turned into the relatively harmless potassium bicarbonate.
Alternatively, as we have suggested earlier, a final addition of wine to the kykeon would
neutralize the ashes, and this seems reasonable since in Homer the kykeon always contains
wine. But in the Eleusinian myth, Demeter pointedly refuses to accept any wine to assuage
her grief, since it would be “contrary to themis,” against nature. This is thought to be more
than just an expression of her unwillingness to drink a beverage of joy while still in grief for
her daughter; rather, she declines because wine comes from Dionysus, and the rape of
Demeter’s daughter occurred on the Nysan Plain, where the Dionysian ground opened.
29
Indeed, the kykeon is possibly the Eleusinian drink in part because it stood as an alternative in
opposition to Dionysian wine. A third possibility, then, is that the final mixture was
neutralized (more effectively in any case since it is more acidic) by the addition of vinegar,
which as spoiled wine, might not offend Demeter and/or might even be symbolic of
participation in her grief.


It's from this interresting research document on the Kykeon:
http://www.psychedelic-l...keon%20Final%20Draft.pdf

Some of those attempts to recreate the kykeon, as suggested there, seem pretty
simple & straightforward. Maybe anyone feels inspired to give it a go?
Someone perhaps with the skills & materials required.
Enjoy!
 
jamie
#25 Posted : 2/16/2013 7:58:42 PM

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nen made a pretty convincing post some time back in anothe thread about the possability of the kykeon being phalaris aquatica.
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AlbertKLloyd
#26 Posted : 2/16/2013 8:23:36 PM

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SKA
#27 Posted : 2/16/2013 8:42:11 PM
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Do tell? Can you remember nen's explanation of Phalaris Aquatica?
Got a link to that topic of nen's?

Seems like a MAOI would have to be combined for that. Were Peganum Harmala
or other plants containing MAOIs known to grow in/around Eleusis at the time?

Only that could explain oral activity of the alks found in P.Aquatica.
That or chemically altering the DMT to create an orally active analogue.

Perhaps the fermentation & the subsequent basification & acidification of the drink,(see PDF-link I posted earlier)
in the presence of other chemicals(found in pennyroyal?) could form orally active derivatives of DMT?
 
Vodsel
#28 Posted : 2/18/2013 8:28:40 PM

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nen's post suggesting Phalaris as the kykeon staple (btw, SKA, it's here) got me thinking as well about the admixtures, specially because recent research has proved that extracts of several mint species native in the mediterranean Europe show MAO inhibition properties. Among them the mentioned pennyroyal (Mentha pulegium) and peppermint (M. piperita), and in the case of water mint (M. aquatica) the flavonoid naringenin has been identified as the active.

However, if I'm not wrong interpreting the values, data suggest a considerable amount of ethanolic mint extract would be required for oral DMT activation, considering P. Aquatica as a candidate. For example, in Mentha aquatica:

Quote:
The IC50 values for MAO inhibition by naringenin were 342 ± 33 microM for the rat liver mitochondrial fraction, 955 ± 129 microM for MAO-A and 288 ± 18 microM for MAO-B. The IC50 values for clorgyline (MAO-A inhibitor) and deprenyl (MAO-B inhibitor) were 0.0003 ± 0.00005 microM and 0.105 ± 0.010 microM, respectively.

(Source)

Also, wouldn't the presence of 5-MeO make the plant less safe for oral ingestion than the historical references suggest? Did the eleusinians have a secret AQ1 patch? Thoughts...?


Regarding ergot, in a paper about archeobotanic registry of psychoactive plants in the Iberian Peninsula there is additional evidence to consider. Translating from spanish:

Quote:
The hypothesis on ergot (Claviceps Purpurea) as the secret component in kykeon gains credibility thanks to the evidence facilitated by the iberian station of Mas Castellar in Pontós (Girona). In a possible sanctuary devoted to Demeter and Persephone, identified in the last occupation phase in the site, dated between IV-II centuries bC (Pons 1997) remains of sclerotia of this parasitical fungus were found as residue in the dental calculus of a human jaw, and inside of a little vase with traces of beer and yeast (Juan-Tresserras 2002a: 481; Ponts et al. 1998: 62), ruling out the possibility of contaminated cereal in the production of beer since no traces of Claviceps have been found in the analysis of several mills in the site. (...) Juan-Tresserras (2002a, 2002b) considers the presence of ergot in Mas Castellar as a sign of its consumption as hallucinogenic substance.


But would a water extraction carry sclerotia? The kykeon had been prepared in Eleusis for centuries, and surely anyone reproducing the mysteries in another colony would follow the same tek... How good were the hierophants at filtering...? Thoughts...??
 
Kash
#29 Posted : 2/19/2013 12:09:02 AM

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SKA wrote:
They produce a mixture consisting principally of ergine and
isoergine (total: 10.3 g) with relatively small amounts of lysergic acid/isolysergic acids (total:
1.65 g) from 30 g of ergotamine by refluxing for two hours in a 0.60 M solution of KOH, the
solvent being a 1:3 mixture of water:ethyl alcohol.
22
These results can be compared to a
standard procedure for producing lysergic acid from ergotamine as given in Shulgin’s
TIHKAL, where 3.5 g lysergic acid is obtained by stirring 10 g ergotamine in a 1.2 M aqueous
KOH at 70° C for 3 hours.


Very interesting find SKA. Thanks.
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nen888
#30 Posted : 2/19/2013 4:19:21 AM
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..i'm pretty convinced it's NOT ergot based because, as i said in the theory jamie and vosdel are referring to [here]..no one has yet actually made and tried an ergot based drink that isn't incredibly toxic..the paper SKA linked is interesting but entirely theoretical with no bioassay..probably because, given the history of ergot poisoning in Europe, no one is game to risk it..St. Vitus' Dance!

also, aside from the points i made in the above link, the fact that Phalaris grows as a weed on the actual ruins of the temple of Demeter at Eleusis adds further evidence to me..
 
nen888
#31 Posted : 2/19/2013 7:43:17 AM
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Vodsel wrote:

However, if I'm not wrong interpreting the values, data suggest a considerable amount of ethanolic mint extract would be required for oral DMT activation, considering P. Aquatica as a candidate. For example, in Mentha aquatica:

Quote:
The IC50 values for MAO inhibition by naringenin were 342 ± 33 microM for the rat liver mitochondrial fraction, 955 ± 129 microM for MAO-A and 288 ± 18 microM for MAO-B. The IC50 values for clorgyline (MAO-A inhibitor) and deprenyl (MAO-B inhibitor) were 0.0003 ± 0.00005 microM and 0.105 ± 0.010 microM, respectively.

(Source)

Also, wouldn't the presence of 5-MeO make the plant less safe for oral ingestion than the historical references suggest? Did the eleusinians have a secret AQ1 patch? Thoughts...?



..great find Vosdel..the lower the IC50 value the stronger the potency..
as reference standards, clorgyline and deprenyl are very potent MAOIs..more potent than, say, harmine..

i think you've cracked the Kykeyon..a mint and a grass..
not sure about the 5meo..AFAIK Phalaris aquatica is native to greece, and is often just DMT..these potent mint MAOIs would do the trick..

brilliant..Kykeon may be P. aquatica+M. aquatica..
.
 
Vodsel
#32 Posted : 2/19/2013 10:34:41 AM

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Quote:
i think you've cracked the Kykeyon..a mint and a grass...


I wish, but I don't think so Smile We've had a little misunderstanding here.

clorgyline and deprenyl are reference values in the study, NOT compounds in the mint extract. Clorgyline is an irreversible, selective MAO-A inhibitor and deprenyl (selegiline) is a reference of the same type for MAO-B.

The actual approximated, IC 50 values of several mint extracts (besides the particular case of narginine in M. Aquatica) for MAO-A inhibition are 58 micrograms/ml for M. Aquatica, 59 micrograms/ml for M. Pulegium and 35 micrograms/ml for M. Piperita (actually the strongest mint inhibitor in broad spectrum extract). In comparison, Clorgyline has an IC 50 of 0,1 expressed in micrograms/ml.
 
nen888
#33 Posted : 2/19/2013 10:45:07 AM
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^..a case of reading too fast..i'll adjust that post..

it's still a good case..those IC50 values are within the zone to get usable activity in orally activating tryptamines..
.
 
Vodsel
#34 Posted : 2/19/2013 10:49:49 AM

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I intend to bioassay a M. piperita extract with fumarate this next weekend. Still have to figure out method and see if the dosage is feasible, but I'll leave here one paper with values atm.
 
nen888
#35 Posted : 2/19/2013 10:51:46 AM
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..to clarify my last post, from quick memory, Harmine IC-50 is around 13-22..up to 50-60 is still potent and where many usable compounds are..above around 70-100 value becomes too weak to use practically..
 
Vodsel
#36 Posted : 2/19/2013 11:09:12 AM

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^ which units are we talking here? microgram/ml as well? IC 50 values have that problem... in a quick reference check I found a value of 0,003 mM for harmine MAO-A inhibition. Anyone has the molar weight of harmine?

Edit: 212,25 g/mol, wikipedia sez.
 
nen888
#37 Posted : 2/19/2013 12:23:54 PM
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µg/ml (micrograms)

ok there's this thread..harmine goes as low as 2.5 https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=26443

and a range of fairly potent natural MAOI IC50 vales http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17328236
 
Vodsel
#38 Posted : 2/19/2013 2:30:36 PM

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Thanks, nen. According to endlessness quotation in the thread you posted, IC50 for harmine and MAO-A is 2,0 nanoMolar. I tried to convert that to µg/ml, please anyone correct me if I did it wrong:

2x10^-9 (mol/l) x 212,25 (g/mol) x 10^6 (µg/g) x 10^-3 (l/ml) = 0,0004245 µg/ml

0,4245 nanograms/ml sounds very different from the 13-22 µg/ml value mentioned. Unless the calculation is wrong, and with that IC50 value for harmine, an oral dosage roughly equivalent to harmine with mint extract would be huge, and acute toxicity with menthol or pulegone might come into play.

Another source gives values of IC50 MAO-A = 0,003 mM for harmine in vitro, which equals 0,636 µg/ml. The disparity is getting me lost.

Any chemist can chime in?
 
SKA
#39 Posted : 2/19/2013 6:02:47 PM
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IIRC from reading that kykeon document I posted earlier, at one point the hierophants added
ground up goat cheese to the mix. Perhaps for the fat content(as a solvent)?
We should consider the possible reasons for adding goat cheese & what it may tell us about
the alkaloids they were extracting, washing or transforming into active derivatives in the Kykeon. Could be the goat cheese was just for flavouring, but something tells me it was involved in the chemical process of making "the Kykeon".

Then the question remains: Was the Kykeon DMT & MAOI based? Or Egotamine/Ergine based?
Or perhaps both? All the nececairy flora seem present at that time & location.

I can imagine a brew that contains DMT, MAOIs & some Ergotamine/Ergine Derivative could yield
an amazingly mystical, visionary experience. It would however require this Ergotamine/Ergine derivative
to be somehow safe in combination with a MAOI. Normally MAOI's + LSA or LSD isn't advisable & may cause too
severe vassoconstriction & other potentially very dangerous symptoms. But perhaps if the Hierophants
chemically altered Ergotamine/Ergine into the right analogue, this analogue could be very psychedelic,
yet harmless in combination with MAOIs. Just another option to consider:
DMT, MAOIs & Ergotamine-derivatives... They could all 3 be ingredients of the Kykeon.





I think we should experiment with theorising several possible Kykeon Recipes
& then trying to brew them. Then a chemical analysis could be performed of
the resulting brews. Here's a list of all proposed ingredients:

-Barley
-Claviceps purpurea &/or C.Paspali
-Yeast
-Phalaris Aquatica
-Pennyroyal
-Pepper Mint
-Water Mint
-Water
-Vinegar &/or Wine
-Potash


Don't know if those are all of them. I'll dive back into that Kykeon document
and if I find another suggested ingredient I'll add it to this list.

Let's see what can be done with these, Ancient Chemistry-wise.
Potash seems usefull as a Base, Vinegar as an acid, Wine
as an acidic solvent (ethanol). The barley, if allowed to ferment,
is a good sugar source for yeast to turn into Ethanol. Also, I remember
reading something in TIHKAL about Barley being quite rich in Tryptophan
or Tryptamines of some sort. Claviceps species obviously for their Ergine/
Ergotamine content, Pennyroyal, Peppermint & Watermint for their MAOI content
& ground goat cheese possibly as a lipid solvent.


Let's whip up some possible Kykeon ingredient-lists with those ingredients.
Try recipes with all ingredients & the different kinds of preparations that could
be done with them. Then eliminate some ingredients from the list & theorise a few
other possible brew-preparations that can be done with that shorter ingredient-list.

Anyone with sufficient knowledge & understanding of chemistry should probably soon find
a list of ingredients & a method of preparing a brew with them that is most likely to
yield a mystical, psychoactive experience. Smile
 
Vodsel
#40 Posted : 2/19/2013 7:07:24 PM

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SKA wrote:
at one point the hierophants added ground up goat cheese to the mix. Perhaps for the fat content(as a solvent)?


We should not mix up the traditional, popular, non-psychoactive kykeon, a beverage that included water, herbs, barley and goat cheese (as described in the Iliad) with the psychoactive kykeon prepared in Eleusis. There is no evidence I've seen that the hierophants added cheese to the visionary kykeon.

There might have been multiple recipes for "kykeon" in both the greek and the roman empire, used popularly across the centuries, but the one with the entheogenic twist was probably unique. Whether they used parasitized barley, phalaris or other psychoactive we don't know, but we do know it was apparently safe and enjoyable (Alkibiades stole the secret recipe once to use it in his parties in Athens).

It's better to keep it simple IMO, untested hypotheses can be tried one at a time, and I was considering the mint route following nen's suggestion. Plants in the mint family have been traditionally used in several regions thanks to their MAOI properties (i.e. as antidepressants) but determining the required dosage for oral activation of tryptamines, and its safety, is a different story.
 
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