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ms_manic_minxx wrote: (What fumes came out of the earth at Delphi...?)
im pretty sure I've read this was already answered... It was some volatile hydrocarbons or some other kind of gas, coming from a crack that was just under the oracle's room.. Im trying to remember where I read this, maybe in scientific american... But anyways the impression I had when I read that a couple of years ago, was that the answer they came up with, with the help of geologists and scans of the underground formation, was starting to be generally accepted. Maybe im wrong though and it was just a hypothesis. As for the kykeon, I remember also making a thread about this. I also wondered how comes they used so consistently and safely something as dangerous as ergot, so my question was that if any other of the ingredients would turn the dangerous alkaloids into something less toxic, sort of like the supposed lsa to lsh conversion with peppermint. Or otherwise, what about the difference between claviceps purpurea and paspali? is one less toxic than the other?
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DMT-Nexus member
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ms_manic_minxx wrote: (What fumes came out of the earth at Delphi...?)
In the documentary Decoding the Past - Doomsday 2012 they say that in 1998 they found two fault lines that ran right down the center of temple at Delphi that spewed up ethylene gas, which is similar to the practice of glue sniffing. The Tea Party wrote:We exist in a world where the fear of Illusion is real And we cling to the past to deny and confuse the ideal DMTripper wrote:Bliss of ignorance -> pain of knowledge -> integrate -> bliss of knowledge. SWIM and ElusiveMind are fictional characters and everything they say is fictional
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DMT-Nexus member
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there is no way they knew about water sol/insol of ergotaloids. i mean i guess its easy to figure, make it with water vs boose and compare, but still, noone fucks with ergot. Have you ever baked a loaf of bread full of deathcaps to see if they wont kill you if u make food with them? i doubt it. then again someone may have been tasked with finding a way to make blighted grain eatable. if a township's whole reserve had been infected it may have been worth a few lives to find a way to still eat it.
i read something about the greek and roman seers also using some kind of tropane drink, independent of the ethylene gas deal at delphi. but i was maybe 15 when i was reading about this, can anyone speak to this?
if it was sweetened with honey id bet there is a better chance of it being mad honey than cultivated ergot. what bee pollinated flower grows most in the area this drink was from?
these people may have also been eating an maoi every day or somethign stupid liek that too causing ti to be active for them and not us. afterall they all had lead poisioning from their pipes/dishes/tools. maybe pennyroyale intoxicates you if you have pb pzning?
theres just so many unknowable aspects of historical psychs to figure many of them totally. i am, as always, infatuated with this topic.
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Had to dig this pearl up too. I'm on a treasure hunt. This should interrest you guys too: Quote:How did the experimental conditions of Smith and Timmis (ST), in which ergine was produced from ergotinine, differ from those of Jacobs and Craig (JC), in which lysergic acid was produced from ergotinine? Fundamentally, the difference was a matter of concentration and temperature. ST refluxed ergotinine for one hour in a 1.0 M solution of potassium hydroxide (KOH) in methanol, which boils at 65° C, while JC refluxed ergotinine for an hour in a 1.4 M solution of KOH in water, which of course boils at 100° C. The reason that ST used methanol is that pure crystalline ergotinine 21 is insoluble in water and unreactive even in boiling aqueous KOH. JC found that the resinous material remaining after ergotinine was rapidly dissolved in methanolic KOH and then evaporated would slowly dissolve with liberation of ammonia in boiling aqueous 1.4 M KOH. Martínková, Kren, et al. have been able to maximize the production of ergine/isoergine from ergotamine by using a less concentrated solution of KOH. They produce a mixture consisting principally of ergine and isoergine (total: 10.3 g) with relatively small amounts of lysergic acid/isolysergic acids (total: 1.65 g) from 30 g of ergotamine by refluxing for two hours in a 0.60 M solution of KOH, the solvent being a 1:3 mixture of water:ethyl alcohol. 22 These results can be compared to a standard procedure for producing lysergic acid from ergotamine as given in Shulgin’s TIHKAL, where 3.5 g lysergic acid is obtained by stirring 10 g ergotamine in a 1.2 M aqueous KOH at 70° C for 3 hours. 23 We suggest that conditions of solubility, pH, and temperature which would be equivalent in effect to ST’s process, and result in the conversion of ergot to ergine, could be readily obtained by boiling crude ergot for several hours in water to which the ashes of wood or other plant material, perhaps barley, had been added. These are, of course, conditions easily achieved by the hierophants of Eleusis. Why would these conditions produce ergine? Wood ash contains potassium carbonate (pearlash), a strong base which for millennia was the usual material used to produce soap from animal or vegetable fats — an hydrolysis process (saponification) almost identical to the hydrolysis of the amide bonds of ergot. Wood ash has a pH of about 12, while the 0.60 M KOH used by MK has a pH of almost 14. But the Greek priests would have employed water as a solvent, since distilled methanol or ethanol was then unknown, and the resulting higher temperatures (and quite likely longer cooking times, which would tend to concentrate both product and alkali reagent) would compensate for the less concentrated base. As for the solubility problem encountered by ST and JC, we suggest that it would not obtain when crude ergot was used instead of crystalline ergotinine. This is because crude ergot contains from 30-35% fatty acids 24 which would both solubilize the ergot alkaloids of their own accord and even more so by virtue of the micelles formed when these fats were saponified by the hot pearlash. 25 Why would the hierophants consider ashes as a suitable ingredient in a sacred potion? We suggest the possibility that some sort of symbolism involving the resurgence of life from inanimate ashes may be involved. Kerényi points to a symbolic cluster of images surrounding birth in death, birth in fire, the ashes of the cremated votaries — all linked to the hope of life after death. 26 Persephone herself was looked upon as the goddess of fire, for “through her power the evil element was transformed into a kindly one.” 27 Perhaps also the ashes symbolized the immortality which Demeter wished to bestow on the little prince Demophoön, who was able to thrive and grow without food as long as she secretly placed him each night in the fire like a log. When Demophoön’s mother, Metaneira, observes Demeter’s strange actionMixing the Kykeon 15 and protests it, Demeter takes the boy from the fire — but now he is doomed with the rest of mankind to death. “Unknowing are ye mortals and thoughtless: ye know not whether good or evil approaches.” 28 An augmenting motive to any of the preceding is simply the reverence naturally felt towards the ashes remaining after a whole-burnt offering to the gods on a sacred altar. These are not ashes to be simply disposed of as one would ordinary hearth ashes; they partake of the sacral nature of the offering, and it is natural to attempt to incorporate them in some further sacral function. The same instinct can be seen at work in the custom, observed to this day in the Roman Catholic tradition, of reserving the ashes of the palms blessed on Palm Sunday to be used on Ash Wednesday of the following liturgical season. Would a potion containing enough ashes to hydrolyze ergot alkaloids be too basic and caustic to drink? We suggest several possibilities: most simply, a solution of potassium carbonate, if allowed to stand exposed to the air for a few days, would absorb enough carbon dioxide from the air to be turned into the relatively harmless potassium bicarbonate. Alternatively, as we have suggested earlier, a final addition of wine to the kykeon would neutralize the ashes, and this seems reasonable since in Homer the kykeon always contains wine. But in the Eleusinian myth, Demeter pointedly refuses to accept any wine to assuage her grief, since it would be “contrary to themis,” against nature. This is thought to be more than just an expression of her unwillingness to drink a beverage of joy while still in grief for her daughter; rather, she declines because wine comes from Dionysus, and the rape of Demeter’s daughter occurred on the Nysan Plain, where the Dionysian ground opened. 29 Indeed, the kykeon is possibly the Eleusinian drink in part because it stood as an alternative in opposition to Dionysian wine. A third possibility, then, is that the final mixture was neutralized (more effectively in any case since it is more acidic) by the addition of vinegar, which as spoiled wine, might not offend Demeter and/or might even be symbolic of participation in her grief. It's from this interresting research document on the Kykeon: http://www.psychedelic-l...keon%20Final%20Draft.pdfSome of those attempts to recreate the kykeon, as suggested there, seem pretty simple & straightforward. Maybe anyone feels inspired to give it a go? Someone perhaps with the skills & materials required. Enjoy!
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DMT-Nexus member
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nen made a pretty convincing post some time back in anothe thread about the possability of the kykeon being phalaris aquatica. Long live the unwoke.
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Do tell? Can you remember nen's explanation of Phalaris Aquatica? Got a link to that topic of nen's?
Seems like a MAOI would have to be combined for that. Were Peganum Harmala or other plants containing MAOIs known to grow in/around Eleusis at the time?
Only that could explain oral activity of the alks found in P.Aquatica. That or chemically altering the DMT to create an orally active analogue.
Perhaps the fermentation & the subsequent basification & acidification of the drink,(see PDF-link I posted earlier) in the presence of other chemicals(found in pennyroyal?) could form orally active derivatives of DMT?
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nen's post suggesting Phalaris as the kykeon staple (btw, SKA, it's here) got me thinking as well about the admixtures, specially because recent research has proved that extracts of several mint species native in the mediterranean Europe show MAO inhibition properties. Among them the mentioned pennyroyal ( Mentha pulegium) and peppermint ( M. piperita), and in the case of water mint ( M. aquatica) the flavonoid naringenin has been identified as the active. However, if I'm not wrong interpreting the values, data suggest a considerable amount of ethanolic mint extract would be required for oral DMT activation, considering P. Aquatica as a candidate. For example, in Mentha aquatica: Quote:The IC50 values for MAO inhibition by naringenin were 342 ± 33 microM for the rat liver mitochondrial fraction, 955 ± 129 microM for MAO-A and 288 ± 18 microM for MAO-B. The IC50 values for clorgyline (MAO-A inhibitor) and deprenyl (MAO-B inhibitor) were 0.0003 ± 0.00005 microM and 0.105 ± 0.010 microM, respectively. ( Source) Also, wouldn't the presence of 5-MeO make the plant less safe for oral ingestion than the historical references suggest? Did the eleusinians have a secret AQ1 patch? Thoughts...? Regarding ergot, in a paper about archeobotanic registry of psychoactive plants in the Iberian Peninsula there is additional evidence to consider. Translating from spanish: Quote:The hypothesis on ergot (Claviceps Purpurea) as the secret component in kykeon gains credibility thanks to the evidence facilitated by the iberian station of Mas Castellar in Pontós (Girona). In a possible sanctuary devoted to Demeter and Persephone, identified in the last occupation phase in the site, dated between IV-II centuries bC (Pons 1997) remains of sclerotia of this parasitical fungus were found as residue in the dental calculus of a human jaw, and inside of a little vase with traces of beer and yeast (Juan-Tresserras 2002a: 481; Ponts et al. 1998: 62), ruling out the possibility of contaminated cereal in the production of beer since no traces of Claviceps have been found in the analysis of several mills in the site. (...) Juan-Tresserras (2002a, 2002b) considers the presence of ergot in Mas Castellar as a sign of its consumption as hallucinogenic substance. But would a water extraction carry sclerotia? The kykeon had been prepared in Eleusis for centuries, and surely anyone reproducing the mysteries in another colony would follow the same tek... How good were the hierophants at filtering...? Thoughts...?? "The Menu is Not The Meal." - Alan Watts
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SKA wrote:They produce a mixture consisting principally of ergine and isoergine (total: 10.3 g) with relatively small amounts of lysergic acid/isolysergic acids (total: 1.65 g) from 30 g of ergotamine by refluxing for two hours in a 0.60 M solution of KOH, the solvent being a 1:3 mixture of water:ethyl alcohol. 22 These results can be compared to a standard procedure for producing lysergic acid from ergotamine as given in Shulgin’s TIHKAL, where 3.5 g lysergic acid is obtained by stirring 10 g ergotamine in a 1.2 M aqueous KOH at 70° C for 3 hours.
Very interesting find SKA. Thanks. --------------------------------------------------*Kash's LSA Extraction* * Kash's Mescaline Extraction*------------------------------------------------------ All things I say are complete and utter ramblings of nonsense. Do not consider taking anything iterated from the depths of my subconsciousness rationally and/or seriously.
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member for the trees
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..i'm pretty convinced it's NOT ergot based because, as i said in the theory jamie and vosdel are referring to [ here]..no one has yet actually made and tried an ergot based drink that isn't incredibly toxic..the paper SKA linked is interesting but entirely theoretical with no bioassay..probably because, given the history of ergot poisoning in Europe, no one is game to risk it..St. Vitus' Dance! also, aside from the points i made in the above link, the fact that Phalaris grows as a weed on the actual ruins of the temple of Demeter at Eleusis adds further evidence to me..
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member for the trees
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Vodsel wrote:However, if I'm not wrong interpreting the values, data suggest a considerable amount of ethanolic mint extract would be required for oral DMT activation, considering P. Aquatica as a candidate. For example, in Mentha aquatica: Quote:The IC50 values for MAO inhibition by naringenin were 342 ± 33 microM for the rat liver mitochondrial fraction, 955 ± 129 microM for MAO-A and 288 ± 18 microM for MAO-B. The IC50 values for clorgyline (MAO-A inhibitor) and deprenyl (MAO-B inhibitor) were 0.0003 ± 0.00005 microM and 0.105 ± 0.010 microM, respectively. ( Source) Also, wouldn't the presence of 5-MeO make the plant less safe for oral ingestion than the historical references suggest? Did the eleusinians have a secret AQ1 patch? Thoughts...? ..great find Vosdel..the lower the IC50 value the stronger the potency.. as reference standards, clorgyline and deprenyl are very potent MAOIs..more potent than, say, harmine.. i think you've cracked the Kykeyon..a mint and a grass.. not sure about the 5meo..AFAIK Phalaris aquatica is native to greece, and is often just DMT..these potent mint MAOIs would do the trick.. brilliant..Kykeon may be P. aquatica+M. aquatica.. .
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DMT-Nexus member
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Quote:i think you've cracked the Kykeyon..a mint and a grass... I wish, but I don't think so We've had a little misunderstanding here. clorgyline and deprenyl are reference values in the study, NOT compounds in the mint extract. Clorgyline is an irreversible, selective MAO-A inhibitor and deprenyl (selegiline) is a reference of the same type for MAO-B. The actual approximated, IC 50 values of several mint extracts (besides the particular case of narginine in M. Aquatica) for MAO-A inhibition are 58 micrograms/ml for M. Aquatica, 59 micrograms/ml for M. Pulegium and 35 micrograms/ml for M. Piperita (actually the strongest mint inhibitor in broad spectrum extract). In comparison, Clorgyline has an IC 50 of 0,1 expressed in micrograms/ml. "The Menu is Not The Meal." - Alan Watts
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member for the trees
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^..a case of reading too fast..i'll adjust that post..
it's still a good case..those IC50 values are within the zone to get usable activity in orally activating tryptamines.. .
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I intend to bioassay a M. piperita extract with fumarate this next weekend. Still have to figure out method and see if the dosage is feasible, but I'll leave here one paper with values atm. "The Menu is Not The Meal." - Alan Watts
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member for the trees
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..to clarify my last post, from quick memory, Harmine IC-50 is around 13-22..up to 50-60 is still potent and where many usable compounds are..above around 70-100 value becomes too weak to use practically..
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DMT-Nexus member
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^ which units are we talking here? microgram/ml as well? IC 50 values have that problem... in a quick reference check I found a value of 0,003 mM for harmine MAO-A inhibition. Anyone has the molar weight of harmine? Edit: 212,25 g/mol, wikipedia sez. "The Menu is Not The Meal." - Alan Watts
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member for the trees
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µg/ml (micrograms) ok there's this thread..harmine goes as low as 2.5 https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=26443and a range of fairly potent natural MAOI IC50 vales http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pubmed/17328236
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Thanks, nen. According to endlessness quotation in the thread you posted, IC50 for harmine and MAO-A is 2,0 nanoMolar. I tried to convert that to µg/ml, please anyone correct me if I did it wrong: 2x10^-9 (mol/l) x 212,25 (g/mol) x 10^6 (µg/g) x 10^-3 (l/ml) = 0,0004245 µg/ml 0,4245 nanograms/ml sounds very different from the 13-22 µg/ml value mentioned. Unless the calculation is wrong, and with that IC50 value for harmine, an oral dosage roughly equivalent to harmine with mint extract would be huge, and acute toxicity with menthol or pulegone might come into play. Another source gives values of IC50 MAO-A = 0,003 mM for harmine in vitro, which equals 0,636 µg/ml. The disparity is getting me lost. Any chemist can chime in? "The Menu is Not The Meal." - Alan Watts
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IIRC from reading that kykeon document I posted earlier, at one point the hierophants added ground up goat cheese to the mix. Perhaps for the fat content(as a solvent)? We should consider the possible reasons for adding goat cheese & what it may tell us about the alkaloids they were extracting, washing or transforming into active derivatives in the Kykeon. Could be the goat cheese was just for flavouring, but something tells me it was involved in the chemical process of making "the Kykeon". Then the question remains: Was the Kykeon DMT & MAOI based? Or Egotamine/Ergine based? Or perhaps both? All the nececairy flora seem present at that time & location. I can imagine a brew that contains DMT, MAOIs & some Ergotamine/Ergine Derivative could yield an amazingly mystical, visionary experience. It would however require this Ergotamine/Ergine derivative to be somehow safe in combination with a MAOI. Normally MAOI's + LSA or LSD isn't advisable & may cause too severe vassoconstriction & other potentially very dangerous symptoms. But perhaps if the Hierophants chemically altered Ergotamine/Ergine into the right analogue, this analogue could be very psychedelic, yet harmless in combination with MAOIs. Just another option to consider: DMT, MAOIs & Ergotamine-derivatives... They could all 3 be ingredients of the Kykeon. I think we should experiment with theorising several possible Kykeon Recipes & then trying to brew them. Then a chemical analysis could be performed of the resulting brews. Here's a list of all proposed ingredients: -Barley -Claviceps purpurea &/or C.Paspali -Yeast -Phalaris Aquatica -Pennyroyal -Pepper Mint -Water Mint -Water -Vinegar &/or Wine -Potash Don't know if those are all of them. I'll dive back into that Kykeon document and if I find another suggested ingredient I'll add it to this list. Let's see what can be done with these, Ancient Chemistry-wise. Potash seems usefull as a Base, Vinegar as an acid, Wine as an acidic solvent (ethanol). The barley, if allowed to ferment, is a good sugar source for yeast to turn into Ethanol. Also, I remember reading something in TIHKAL about Barley being quite rich in Tryptophan or Tryptamines of some sort. Claviceps species obviously for their Ergine/ Ergotamine content, Pennyroyal, Peppermint & Watermint for their MAOI content & ground goat cheese possibly as a lipid solvent. Let's whip up some possible Kykeon ingredient-lists with those ingredients. Try recipes with all ingredients & the different kinds of preparations that could be done with them. Then eliminate some ingredients from the list & theorise a few other possible brew-preparations that can be done with that shorter ingredient-list. Anyone with sufficient knowledge & understanding of chemistry should probably soon find a list of ingredients & a method of preparing a brew with them that is most likely to yield a mystical, psychoactive experience.
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DMT-Nexus member
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SKA wrote:at one point the hierophants added ground up goat cheese to the mix. Perhaps for the fat content(as a solvent)? We should not mix up the traditional, popular, non-psychoactive kykeon, a beverage that included water, herbs, barley and goat cheese (as described in the Iliad) with the psychoactive kykeon prepared in Eleusis. There is no evidence I've seen that the hierophants added cheese to the visionary kykeon. There might have been multiple recipes for "kykeon" in both the greek and the roman empire, used popularly across the centuries, but the one with the entheogenic twist was probably unique. Whether they used parasitized barley, phalaris or other psychoactive we don't know, but we do know it was apparently safe and enjoyable (Alkibiades stole the secret recipe once to use it in his parties in Athens). It's better to keep it simple IMO, untested hypotheses can be tried one at a time, and I was considering the mint route following nen's suggestion. Plants in the mint family have been traditionally used in several regions thanks to their MAOI properties (i.e. as antidepressants) but determining the required dosage for oral activation of tryptamines, and its safety, is a different story. "The Menu is Not The Meal." - Alan Watts
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