This is in response to the numerous "only with a trained shaman" business ive been reading.

I feel so many people are misguided when it comes to who/what a shaman is and does. I see a lot of talk about taking ayahuasca only with a traditional shaman, to help guide these realms or protect from evil spirits or perform healing and so on.
While a shaman does have knowledge of their medications, that is the scope of their profession, just as a doctor is in the west.
If you recall the end of that old movie "man on the moon" where the main character goes to India to be healed and observes the con played out. This is the nature of reality of the shaman. It's a frightenining situation, this embrace of shamanism by the new age movement. It might very well have been good intentioned but theyve hyped up the mystical nature to such a degree they think its fairytale.

A shaman is a profession. Like a fisherman, a basket weaver or a blacksmith. It's a job. Like any job in which trade specific knowledge is passed down to apprentices, you excel at it. Part of being a shaman is knowing how to choose your clients. When healing, being able to identify who will get better and who won't, knowing the gossip of who has grudges against who, and so on. Don't get me wrong. In all societies there are truly gifted individuals who recognise their calling to heal and so on, but these are the rare occurrences.

Shamanism is magic, and by this I don't mean they perform miracles. It's the sawing in half of the lady in the box. It's smoke and mirrors. A shamans primary role is that of performer. Anyone who has explored the perceptive response under ayahuasca in particular, or perhaps any of these natural hallucinogens, knows the delicate, suggestive state you enter into. And once in that state, you will fully believe the shaman has removed the pathological dart (or physical manifestation of an illness etc), from your body, even showing it to you, without ever breaking your skin. A hut in the jungle or a church in a metropolis, youre enabling the guy up the front more than you realise.

In the west we romanticise the shaman. They are all knowing healers, loved by their village, living a fulfilling and happy life. This isn't usually the case. Just as doctors in the west know how to heal, they then necessarily know how to kill. It is just as easy to blame a shaman for the death of a person as it is to be thankful for healing another.
Love him or hate him, I recall even terence mckenna made these observations. Of the numerous people I've talked with, along with personal experiences and books I've read, I recommend anyone remotely interested in any of this to search out a copy of "singing to the plants" by stephan beyer, unm press. More so in our community and various new age types, everyone wants to live their shamanic dream, knowing only half the story.

To demonstrate this point, it is interesting to note the shamans primary role, to the native villagers, is to heal physical illness, to find out who your spouse is cheating with, and so on. It is, strange enough, that it is only westerners that flock to the amazon for spiritual healing. Little do these westerners know they participate in a tailored ceremony and village ceremonies are held separately. To quote the above mentioned book, "We must be careful that, in characterizing the shaman ... we are not, once again, mythologizing the shaman to suit our own projected needs."

And this is exactly what we do. A priest, a "holy text", a shaman. We single out one path as the truth. When seeking spiritual help we empower others to "heal" us instead of recognising we are all capable, and the power of self suggestion in our mind can become strong enough that it physically manifests.
As an aside, its horrific how we undertake these ventures without so much as a clue to the impact we have on these civilizations. The westernisation of the amazon, white people bringing their money and the greed of natives misrepresenting traditions, reshaping these civilizations. With more horror stories coming to light of shady ayahuasqueros, the media hype them up. Ayahuasca tourism is damaging not only to our community, but to the entire ayahuasca tradition and its benefits.

I feel we all can embody the role of the shaman. We all possess the power to heal, the ability to take natural consciousness expanding agents and confer with spirits. We can all realise we are truly enlightened beings, whatever that means, but we need to empower ourselves, and not relegate this task to someone else.
It's worth mentioning all spiritual works have been developed from enlightened minds, but also human hands. So take from shamanism, take from Christianity, Buddhism, yoga etc, take whatever you can to make it work. No one can make the change but you. But I feel we need to drop the mysticism, drop the monotheism, and enjoy your efflorescence.


But this is only my view

..i agree..
my reason for encouraging the understanding of shamanism (as in healer/practitioner) is the rise of circles in the modern world where people pay money to someone holding psuedo-shamanic quasi-south american ayahuasca sessions..i have serious issues with this
personally i would encourage people to stay away from such circles without some understanding of what skills or ethics the person they're paying has..mostly they are just 'playing shaman' (or worse still guru)
better off on your own or with just 1 or 2 close friends..

being so broad, though, south american 'shamanism' is not exactly a closed or singular belief system, and the emphasis on physical healing and care indicates a degree of responsibility and training in a successful practitioner..

...or a cat.

But yeah, shamans are unnecessary, in my opinion. The idea of a shaman guiding a psychedelic journey seems odd to me since psychedelics for me are a means of forging an inner path oneself. On the other hand, when I think back on the first psychedelic experiences I had, they were facilitated by a close friend who wanted to introduce me to something awesome. These friends weren't trying to play the role of a shaman, but I certainly would not have gotten my foot in the door without them. Given that memory, maybe the idea of a psychedelic shaman makes more sense than I initially thought, though the role of such a person would be comparable to that of a recruiter or missionary: Someone who merely catalyzes the inner path for others.

I had an older guy that taught me a lot in some ways(he was also crazy in some ways) who I took many different psychedelic plants with at one point, usually off in the bush..and he had spent time on a Dakota reservation apparently eating peyote with a NAC there and he had some stories..about the shaman or roadman bilocating durring the cermonies and stuff. I dunno if that really happened or not but I would imagine shamans do that sort of thing..

I know someone else who was down in equador a while ago drinking ayahuasca and she said the shaman took her to all these places where he had spirit allies..one of them was a waterfall where he would contact some kind of mermaids.

This is the world the shaman lives in on a daily basis it would seem. Having a psychedelic experience does not just make someone a shaman, or even shamanic. I think there are people here who are are "shamanic" I guess and probly do live in that kind of a world..but it's beyond just tripping.

Agreed.

A curandero is a serious job. It's not about drinking Aya 'seei'ng a few snakes, entities and animals', it's about curing people. Plain and simple.

Now tourists from the west are attracted to these rituals out of curiosity. You'll probably find a great majority are there just to see what it's like, rather than actually have any illness to cure. Tourists are now wanting to take Aya for tripping only, since it's the 'all talked about craze'.

So now many shaman that attends to gringos are just serving that purpose only. If they don't they stand to lose a lot of easy money that ignorant tourists can provide for their quest of what they want from a ceremony, rather than what a ceremony is actually there for.

Nevertheless, an Aya ceremony can be pretty awesome, even if one isn't 'ill'. Aya alone can work wonders for people needing some psychological perspective from their so called 'problems' of their lives. This however, is not what Shaman train with dietas for. As i already said they are there to cure real ill's, not petty neurosies that us westerners may feel troubled by, or wanting of a 'spiritual moment'. For that a 'drinker' might as well drink at home with a 'sitter'.

Clearly, a proper Curandero has trained to understand and use plant spirits, etc, etc, to help diagnose and cure illness. A casual 'drinker', cannot possibly have mastered these skills, just like a non mechanic wouldn't have a clue how to fix their car's engine if it broke down.



Whilst i agree that we have the power to heal, that does not mean that we can take steps to heal ourselves. Especially from illness caused by years of wrong living. A Curandero is a facilitator of plant spirits which i believe help you to cure yourself, by removing blocks and restoring our natural flow. But that's my view, and i may be wrong, so don't quote me on that. Regardless, there is a difference between the bodies innate ability to heal itself, and the powers of a Curandero.

A curandero may be the only option for someone too ill, wheras a person with minor problems 'may' be able to cure themselves witha herbal remedy, etc.

Just my 50 cents.

I wonder if the Nexus has a wiki on what a Curandero actually is/does. It seems there could be many threads on this subject, because people still 'haven't' got a clue' about why these Curanderos actually exist?

Anyone who has 5 minutes to read about the subject, will realise that a traditional Curandero, of the type we talk about in South America, has trained with plant spirits to enable him to diagnose and treat real illness.

They don't do that to give travellers their 'enlightened trippy moments', or so that they can 'see entities'. That's what trippy hippy travellers want to see, and just because they pay big bucks for this, don't expect a poor Curandero to say no to these ignorant people, and focus of this 'abuse of Aya'.

Any fool can have a psychadelic experience, but not anyone can be a curandero. Hell no, it's a serious commitment. People just don't realise.

'Ayahuasca tourism', is creating a lot of greed, and the focus is now on the $$$, rather than the curing. If you wanna have a drink and see 'entities', or 'see your neuroseise from a perspective', then anyone can do that at home with a sitter, or even alone. But if you want to be cured of an actual illness, you'll find that that's why Curandero's exist.

I'm a bit torn about this topic.

On the one hand, I've been told by many people who have done extensive work with these substances in traditional settings that it's very important to at some point in your psychedelic career to work with someone who has been trained the traditional way, dating back thousands of years, who really know what they are doing with these medicines; to keep you from getting too far out there on your own without any guidance.

On the other hand I have the impression that having access to a community like nexus or ayahuasca.com or the like, you are connected to moar people with moar wisdom and experience than any old Indian guy raised in the jungle on thousands of years of tradition can possibly imagine.

Then isn't that traditional ancient wisdom what's really missing from our heavily gringo based online psychedelic culture?

And isn't our collective experience and methodology pertinent to today's lifestyle what's missing from traditional settings?

In the end I kinda feel like I'm banging my head against the wall trying to decide "the right way". I'm much moar comfortable laying in my bed listening to shpongle when I drink my aya than I would be laying in some thatched jungle hut with a little native guy hovering over me waving a rattle, whistling, and blowing mapacho smoke in my face. But, I know I'm also missing out on a timeless tradition passed down through thousands of generations from where the medicine originated.

So where does this traditional knowledge become superstition? Does the "business man's trip" fit our modern western lives better than the curandero traditions? Do we need a shaman singing icaros? Can electronic music fill that void? I always end up with more questions than answers when I try to wrap my head around this subject.

Aya tourism is destroying the native way of life. Aya tourism is bringing much needed money and "progress" to a 3rd world desperately in need. Who is in the right? Who is in the wrong? Like basically everything else in life, I don't believe it's so cut an dry. I think the modern rational scientific mind needs the "magic and mystery" of the jungle shaman as much as the poor indigenous jungle people need the "advanced knowledge" of modern western culture.

Some very interesting points, Dreamer.

You say about the wisdom of the Nexus and Ayahuasca.com. I have to say that whilst i think these sites are a wealth of information, that there is also a lot of people 'still not getting it', and then you have the problem of 'the blind leading the blind'. These internet rescources have to be respected for it is all too easy to think that a full on discussion will satisfy ones quest for the actual reality of the way things actually are. There's plenty 'keyboard warriors' out there who have never left their own country, let alone ever done a Ceremony. I do however believe that Ayahuasca.com is a better rescource for Ayahuasca, whereas the Nexus is a site active in many more areas; Both sites are a gem.

Sure, if you want your 'Aya journey', you're just as well doing that alone. But if you are ill and want another kind of curing, the Curandero is always another option. I wouldn't be so fast to dismiss the power of mapacho and 'the little man's rattle', as you put it either!

Yes, Aya tourism IS destroying the native way of life. The same happened to Maria Sabina. Before money came into the picture, there was nothing to argue over, they were all the same in terms of wealth. Then came the well meaning gringo, with wads of $$$, and before you know it they were hating each other fighting over the money!

christian wrote: ..good comment..

yes, i'd agree if you're really ill seek a genuine shaman or doctor..

dreamer042 wrote: ..the ancient wisdoms were built up over long periods of time and 'research'..we should not toss away lightly what they have to say (though not be drawn to single p.o.v. dogma either)
..many aspects of 'today's' lifestlye are not conducive to practising in the 'old ways'..this relates though to the so-called 'alternate lifestyle' and 'back-to-nature' movements of the modern culture..

if i see anything in common with ancient 'shamanic' practices around the world it is, other than physical curing as christian says, techniques to 'protect' from negative 'energies'/entities..and a firm belief in the spirit world's effects on the physical (traditions other than shamanism do this too)

ironically the rising awareness of smoking DMT in the modern context has lead to a lot more modern people discussing entities, and pondering their possible existence..so many are going full circle back to older world views via this new internet informed culture..

whatever and however i chose to experience entheogens, i'm personally glad to be made aware of these long developed ways..the longer i've experimented the more i see what some of this old wisdom may be for..

Yes,

I think it can give people a glimse of the relams of which a Curandero works in, although with the Ayahuasca missing it wouldn't be the same. Also take note that according to Ayahuasca.com, they believe that Mimosa brews are less smooth than Chakruna ones.

I believe that the traditions exist for many reasons that have served overall Curing over the years. It's truly an organic experience that goes above and beyond....

christian wrote: ..i lurk there.. ..the modern aya world is multi coloured indeed..

..we have lost Jurema's songs, traditions and original brewing method..back to the drawing board..i suspect they had a stronger brew than we know way back in Mexico..
when we lose traditional knowledge we lose thousands of years worth of trial and error research..
(and after only, say 15 years, of MHRB new-culture we sit around trying to figure out the secret of Yuremamine (the cold brew only alkaloid))
old shamanic knowledge is multi-level and immense..it deserves protection from modern pressures..


..yeah, going on all the time! medicine or not..
.

I have shared DMT with people. Never did anyone of them get into trouble. I will not claim that
I am as knowledgable asan amazonian shaman, but I feel confident enough to do psychedelic
ceremonies with people who I see as stable enough & ready.

I am knowledgable enough to understand the risks of MAOIs and other than those I only use
psychedelic substances that are essentially harmless. If my knowledge, especially of safety,
is lacking I will simply not go there, untill I know more first.

So I take sacred medicines like DMT, LSD, Mushrooms & the like from time to time. Whenever I
meet an enthusiastic seeker with honourable intentions & an acceptable amount of psychological
stability I see no harm in sharing these tryptamine experiences. In fact I feel obliged to share.

Then I allow them to do their own healing, while I am doing my own healing too. And we talk and discuss
before and after travelling to be able to gain new, richer perspectives & help integrate the knowledge.

This practice is harmless and mindfull. Allthough I am no amazonian shaman, I am confident enough about
my approach to share it with others. Giving MAOI containing brews to the larger public is just a recipe
for disaster. Eventually some fool with cocaine in his system will die and smear Ayahuasca's name even more.

Now had Rob Valdez offered smokable DMT in his Chimbre temple, instead of Ayahuasca prepared by some fake
shaman, I bet he had still been very much up and running & helping people. MAOIs + Ignorance = Disaster.

I'm afraid i disagree with that SKA.

For one thing, you dunno how the poor Mr. Nolan died.

Secondly, there has been an incident where using DMT in a bad setting resulted in someone's death. The same has happened to others with Salvia. Let's not get misguided here.

"Also take note that according to Ayahuasca.com, they believe that Mimosa brews are less smooth than Chakruna ones."

Who is "they"?

I know of many members there who prefer mimosa actaully. I also know of members there that prefer rue to caapi..I also know of memberes there that prefer mushrooms or cacti to any ayahausca. Some people there prefer chakruna. I know of one former moderator there who had lots of experience in south america and prefers changa to any brew.

I have also drunk with people who have drunk down in south america in a few contexts..I know of one person who was interested in working with the medicine here and he came over and drank a brew of rue and mimosa with a bit of caapia nd chaliponga added with me and a few other friends. He said that he had a stronger and better experience on my living room floor than he did when he was drinking ayahuasca in brazil..and there was no currandero with us in my living room. Just a circle of 5 people drinking medicine. I guess it's just a toss up sometimes?

Like minded company is important too i think.

>I apologise if i quoted the recent findings made by certain posters about having a nicer ride on Chakruna over Mimosa, but it seemed the common theme.

True that. We still don't know what killed Mr. Nolan. Has no autopsy been
done by now? I for one am really curious as to the constituents of this poor
guy's blood.

One thing about Chimbre that was extremely irresponsible was that the self-proclaimed "Shaman" gave his clients Ayahuasca and then abbandoned them for HOURS in the middle
of the jungle. That was just amazingly careless & risky.

Second thing: This shaman was a quack. Adding Brugmansia plant matter to Ayahuasca
brews and giving such brews to people completely new to Ayahuasca or any Psychedelics.




But regardless I find the risks of MAOIs somewhat unnerving considering the rising popularity of Ayahuasca. Alot of people getting into it are just...simply put dumb as fuck
and irresponsible like little children. I went with 2 friends to the local Santo Daime church. They were happy to allow us to participate in drinking ayahuasca with them. They
did ask shortly before the ceremony about our prior experiences with "power plants" & gave us some brief hints and tips about the experience to come.

All went well, but what if me and my friends were naive, hedonistic fools with still
significant amounts of cocaine in our blood from the previous night.... We could get killed
& become another big stain on Ayahuasca's reputation.

MAOIs are quite tricky substances as they can even react REALLY bad with chemicals
found in very common foods. So opening up Ayahuasca, a MAOI containing brew, to the
ignorant masses..... Is tricky.

The DMT death was caused by being too casual about it & there being no supervision.
Also, as the guy fell in the river and stayed unconscious, he must have either taken
a rediculous amount of DMT so he passed out, or passed out hitting his head on a rock
on the bottom after he fell in. I've been pretty far from my body on DMT and yet cannot
imagine not shocking and waking up if I were to fall into a river.


In a spiritual Entheogen center where the Shaman or Guide is very attentive to his clients
and keeps a close watch on them as he allows them to experience smoked/vapped DMT & Salvia extracts seems like it would be alot safer.
Have a couple psychologists to analyse people before deciding wether or not they're ready & stable enough for a mushroom, DMT or peyote trip. Low doses of mushrooms & low doses of DMT can be very gentle & given to people to determine how sensitive they are & if they're likely to respond well or not, without overwhelming them.

Whenever I have a novice tripper over that wants to try LSD, DMT or Mushrooms for their first time, I'm allways very attentive to them too. Asking them how they feel every now and then, making them feel free & accepted, looking out for their general safety & wellbeing.

Rob & "Shaman" did not have such concerns for their initiates & a fatality
was the result. But if you have such concern and intuition you are unlikely to make
the mistake they made.

Being wary of danger/harm & taking care to avoid it is an Inuitive feat.
And that's what defines a good shaman to me: Intuitively seeking health,
feeling what is harmfull to avoid it & feeling what is healing to welcome it.

If you feel your own Intuition serves you well in keeping you from Harm &
in leading you towards healing & bliss, then you are your own Shaman and
need not fear that you should harm yourself or others with the use of Entheogens.

That's just how I feel. I found my Intuitive voice & that is
all the spiritual guidance I need. To think otherwise would just
be insecurity & overvaluation of ancient culture's views of Entheogen use.

Off course, like many others here, I have a deep respect for a body of shamanic
knowledge from cultures more than 5000 years old. But it's easy to overappreciate
these cultural views so much that people intend to become incapable, even feel unworthy
of criticising them.

It's easy to, in the face of 5000 years of knowledge, feel unworthy of
starting your own Shamanic Lifestyle with it's own views, rules & methods.

But don't feel unworthy. It is okay to reinvent the wheel over and over. And don't
forget: Those cultures are all but gone now. And Entheogenesis is nothing exclusively their's. It is something inherent to all humans and even many other animals to some extent.

So find your Intuition, which will keep you from harm & steer you towards growth & better health, and let it guide you to the most responsible, safe & effective use of entheogens
to help yourself and others. If you are in constant touch with your Intuition, you need
not feel unworthy. You should heal yourself & others with confidence & care.

As long as you can bear the other person's "sickness" and remain stable & of guidance,
you may consider yourself a valid Shaman/Spiritual Guide.

..shamanism also involves training on one's own 'shit' so it doesn't leak..

a major criticism of some gringo ayahuasca sessions (s. american or 'western' ) has been the leaking of sexual energy by the 'shaman'..yes, some guys (especially in the west) want to use ayahuasca to pick up women..

similarly if i go to see a counsellor, or a tibetan monk, because i feel fucked up, i'd rather they didn't lump their shit on me..that's what a professional is trained to do..no one's perfect, but some people work very hard to be 'professional'..
.

..from ayahuasca.com admin.:

I disagree, and I think you contradict yourself.

On the one hand, you concede that shamanism "is a profession. Like a fisherman, a basket weaver or a blacksmith. It's a job. Like any job in which trade specific knowledge is passed down to apprentices, you excel at it."

But you want us to conclude that "we all can embody the role of the shaman" as if doing so doesn't take periods of dedicated training and learning the specific knowledge and skills that make up the profession. This is like saying "we all can embody the role of the M.D." Well, sure, if you go through medical school successfully.

And that's assuming your assertion that shamanism is "like any [other] job". However, my understanding is that being a shaman is UNLIKE being a medical doctor or "any [other] job" in that it is not really something one chooses but rather that one is chosen for, or called to. To the extent that that is true, no, not "all" can really "embody the role of the shaman".

Finally, you seem to have very narrow assumptions about what shamanism is and how it works. You seem to assume that the main skill behind shamanism is stage magic and performance, and that its effectiveness is a result of "suggestion" to the mind. Unless you are a trained and effective shaman explaining your own understanding of what you do... this seems like an oversimplified western interpretation of something that originates from totally different cosmologies than our own.

I agree that it's difficult for us to understand the role & function of a shaman... but the flip side to romanticizing that role is dismissing that role. Both occur from our own lack of understanding. Both strike me as a mistake.