Man is a technology of nature.

EZ..You said DMT can be ..EXTREEMLY INTENSE..
In what way do you mean extreemly intense?

Cant Salvia Divinorum be just as intense as DMT?

I seem to handle Salvia with a positive relaxed attitude..[atleast at the doses ive taken so far].. and it can slice and dice my mind and send me tumbling through salvia space in a million peices colideing with strange tumbling flower like objects that quickly become part of me..
Also quick moving visuals of cartoon people and towns come spinning past the folding flower like objects [that look much like a salvia flower!
Then for a while.. [the me i knew].. no longer exists and i become part of the universe that now surounds me..
This is not including the beings that always wait my arival to salvia space..
But in all this experiance so far i think ive just arived at the gateway and have not yet entered the garden..
I think salvia is also intense.. but as fast as the come up is on salvia..

i imagine DMT even a faster ride? [is this corect?]

My intrest in DMT is [mind exploration]..and spiritual .. .

I keep telling myself that salvia is more gentle and patient than DMT..although still a serious ride...
I imagine that DMT is a fast intense roller coaster ride into the the cosmose and salvia is a fast but gentle ride on the back of giant eagle?

So when you say ..[extreemly intense]....would you say its more intense than salvia?

Why are you so hesitant to find out for yourself? I have never had a salvia trip, I tried it once and it didnt do anything. But its kind of impossible to explain what the intensity is like. Especially hard to explain the different levels of intensity.

Intensity increases with dosage. starway6 You really need to dose instead of asking questions that can be answered by simply dosing. You arent going to experience anything more intense than your salvia trips with a low dosage. So start upping the dose, actually do it, and then report back with your experience. Then up again as you feel necessary.

Your questions are redundant. Theres no reason to explain over and over again what its like when you can simply read the MANY trip reports in the DMT Experiences sub-forum, AND try it out for yourself.

You have been given a LOAD of information. So now go find out. The context of your posts hint to me that you are hesitant to dose. So is that true and why?

I can't really give you a comparison w/ Salvia because, although I have often considered trying it, I haven't had the opportunity. I have heard mixed opinions on this so until I have experience I cannot say for sure how they compare. I would speculate, that at certain doses it may be comparable, but it is generally stated that, while LSD is the most potent of hallucinogens, DMT is the most intense. The few people that I have known personally that say they have tried both salvia and DMT have said that DMT was much more intense. But again, you cannot take that as absolute because we do not know what kind of doses were being taken of either substance.

As for what I meant there by "DMT can be EXTREMELY intense" that is a difficult thing to describe.

There are many ways that it can be intense. Yes, there is a physical sense in which smoking pure Spice can floor you within 30 seconds. It can come up so quickly that you wonder if you actually just took a big hit of crack cocaine.

Perception of time becomes extremely altered. Don't try to listen to your heart beat. If you do, you then want to count the seconds between beats and as you are counting you realize that you have already counted to 700 since the last time your heart pumped a beat and you wonder if you are dead. Then when you take notice, you realize you are no longer in your body, and now you know you have died.

I have had Spice Journeys that I end up laying on the floor writhing in such a manner that if you were to see it you would probably think that I was having seizures. My jaw chattering as if I were shivering but I wasn't cold. My torso flipping and flopping while my arms and legs were flailing about like I was trying to stay afloat while drowning in the sea. The whole time I was singing and crying in pure and utter happiness with waves of emotional and physical excitement pulsating throughout my body so completely confounded and blissful that it felt as if every single cubic inch of my flesh was relaxing and contracting in an unlimited uncontrollable fit of endless orgasms that started by resonating from within my bones, moving like waves, one after another, through my flesh, and cumming out of every pour of my skin. Absolutely, the most wonderful, beautiful, and enjoying experience you really could never imagine as I floated in the void at the center of heaven.

On the opposite end of the spectrum, sometimes the Spice is unpredictable and the Journey may not be so pleasant. I have been cast into the deepest, darkest pits of hell. Burning in agony and experiencing such anguish so profound that it was all that I could do just to scream in complete terror, crying and begging to die the physical death just so that it would be over. It was an eternity suspended in a single moment as I was haunted by every wrong that I have ever done, every wrong ever done to me, every terrorizing event that I have ever witnessed, and every horror that I have ever imagined. Every painful experience that I have ever had in my life, and every event that I never wanted to occur, was compiled and compressed into that moment and then multiplied by infinity. And within that eternity I touched madness, and madness consumed my very existence. Then for the rest of eternity my mind was lost and sanity was beyond my grasp.

So I have written this to try to give you a better understanding of just how intense The Spice really can be but I am afraid that it is lacking at best. I have been as descriptive as I can but, unfortunately, written and spoken language is far too insufficient to truly describe something so completely and utterly complex.

The only other thing that I can say is that The Spice is very much like The Dao. It is neither good nor evil, but it can show you both. So I leave you with the first chapter of the Dao De Jing as I have personally interpolated it from about 30 translations. I do this because, just as it describes The Dao, there are many parallels to The Spice.


The Dao that can be followed is not the Absolute Dao.
The Dao that can be experienced is not the full experience.
The Dao that can be described is not the Entire Dao.
The name that can be spoken is not the Eternal Name.
The name that is given is not the only name given to The Dao.
Nameless, It is the source of heaven and earth.
Named, It is the Creator and Mother of all things.
Without a name It is all things and their origin.
With a name It is the Protector and Father of all things.

Naming is a human convention used in hope of understanding.
The Dao is divine and beyond total comprehension.
Words are insufficient and lack meaning.
The Dao is beyond expression and holds all meaning.

By what ever word It is named It is still The Dao.

Free from desire you see the hidden mystery.
Bound by desire you see the evident manifestations.
Without intent you look within to see beyond the surface.
With intent you see only the surface.
Void of motive you see the essence.
Filled with motive you see the result.
Not yearning, you realize.
Yearning, you anticipate.

Unburdened by passions,
selflessly you realize the essence of mystery below the surface,
and so you discover the secrets of life.
Encumbered with passions,
selfishly you anticipate the resulting manifestations on the surface,
and so you discover life.

This mystery and manifestation is the key.
Though different on the surface, they are deeply rooted together.
They originate from the same source.
This source is unknown, darkness within darkness.
This enigma is the doorway to all understanding.

Salvia can make anything else looks like a squirt gun in some ways.
As much as I love DMT, and as intense as it is, salvia is not something you can even compare to any other psychedelic IME. A full dose of salvinorin is very different from a full dose of DMT, but it can at least match it in intensity and depth.

]

Why are you so hesitant to find out for yourself? I have never had a salvia trip, I tried it once and it didn't do anything. But its kind of impossible to explain what the intensity is like. Especially hard to explain the different levels of intensity.


OK...The reason for my being hesitant is because of my age...
I'm an older hippy from 1969 to 1973 era ..
I was only 18 years old at the time and the first showing of easy rider came out in the movie theaters...
I was tripping when many of you were in grade school...
I really have tryed unsuccessfully 8 or 10 times to vape DMT..
Although i am in very good health ..ride my mountain bike every day and walk 4 to 5 miles every morning and am a vegetarian i guess I'm just trying to be careful to protect my health..
I really want to experience DMT but only after careful research and what better way to understand the experience is there but to get it directly from mature peoples first hand experiences many of you in your 40s or older...
I atended [.. Goose lake ].. [music festival]..[over 400 thousand attended]... in [Jackson Michigan] 1n 69 and 70 and remember .. Jethro Tull.. mountain...and other groups performing there..
I triped many times on.. GOOD LSD ..window pane..orange sunshine..yellow microdot..green pentagon...LSD 25 blotter..Grey owsley .. smoked the best pot available...veitnamese...panama red..[central south American]...mishwican.. opiated hash..Lebanese hash..
Once as a careless exploring teen.. me and a Friend took [ashmadore powder] ...
[an old ashma remedy]..one teaspoon of the green powder each.. it contained belladonna...
Within minutes.. it felt like i was walking on the moon with weighted boots my whole system sloooowed down .. and i was smoking cigarettes that didn't exist ..eating candy that didn't exist.. seeing people come and go in front of me ..that werent there!
my friend said the bed he was lying on stood straight up on ..end.. then he found himself outside in the woods behind his house...[only he was still in his room!]

Visions were awesome ..but the experience was not an enjoyable one at all!
We were helpless on that stuff..and could have walked in front of a car ignorant of the danger..but thanks to his wife she kept us from wandering outside alone...
If you try belladonna [make shure you have a baby sitter!

In those days.. Being a teen..I over dosed on [moody blues]] during many acid trips ..[tide rushes in] [question of balance]..[to our children's children]
[in 1969]..I remember from my circle of Friends saying something about [[DMT then]]..
They said it was available.. but its soo intense you might not like it?
So at the time i took their advice and stayed with the mostly good acid that was circulating at the time..
Dr Tim Leary ..was very active then and i now wish i would have paid more attention to him at the time...
Much of this acid was was made by Owsley and Sands and was of great quality!
Those were great times and was great being young!
I don't really feel old now.. only wiser because of increased age..
So there you have it..I'm just trying to be careful with DMT...
I dont have a proper glass pipe to vape it but may try the sandwich method in a small pipe...
cheers!

I see where you're coming from I think, starway6.

My best friend is 63 (I'm 43) and has a lot of very similar concerns - although his health isn't nearly what yours sounds to be - he's not in "bad" health.

DMT doesn't compare to much else when you're vaping it. (I've not tried salvia) The first lung-full I took (last year)... I came back down and just giggled something about acid being akin to tapwater and then said "wow" about 3 or 4 hundred times.

Here's my take on DMT as compared to other psychedelics namely, LSD, and mushrooms. With LSD and mushrooms you are participating in a trip. It is happening to you, are are having and experience. With DMT, you quickly become the experience, there is no "You" for things to "happen to". You and the experience are one. Questions of perspective, interpretation and control simply become too absurd to ask. One must really and truly go with the flow, because one IS the flow.

Maybe changa would be a better intro for you? One can certainly slow the initial blast off burn that way. I'm not gonna say it can't get just as intense, but it affords one a little more control over blastoff speed. Something to consider at least.

If you're gonna go straight vaping, sart low, like 10 or 15 mg. I never need more than 30mg (I'm 180#) and most of the time I go with 20-25. AS with any psychedelic, your ability to surrender to the experience is paramount to avoiding more difficult experiences. But it sounds like you probably have plenty of experience with that.

But really, if you're mucho hesitant, read up on changa.

Peace & Blessings,
PT

You know, also... thanks for opening up about your hesitation. Erring on the side of caution is a very good thing.

Hello starway6,

Forget trying to vape it, infuse some herb instead.

With infused herb all you have to do is stick some in a bong and then stick the bong in your head.

Then this will happen.

Good luck with your journey. If it helps salvia freaked me out and I hated it on the occasions I tried it but I find DMT to be awesome.

I understand brother, and I applaud you for being wise enough to know better and not so foolish as to try anything without first finding out what you're doing.

While only you can decide if you are ready for The Spice, I would expect that you will be just fine. According to what kind of experience you are looking for would then determine what kind of dosing you would want to try. Given the information that you have provided, I would expect that whether you choose to start at 20mg or 50mg I would expect you'll be just fine. But, again from the information that you have provided, I would expect that you would probably be better served by The Spice by using it in a huasca blend, either pharma- or fuma-. But again, it all depends on you and what kind of experience that you decide you would like to have. So please, keep us updated. I would like to hear what you decide and how you proceed.

May you find the light, and may the light find you.

"Here's my take on DMT as compared to other psychedelics namely, LSD, and mushrooms. With LSD and mushrooms you are participating in a trip. It is happening to you, are are having and experience. With DMT, you quickly become the experience, there is no "You" for things to "happen to". You and the experience are one. Questions of perspective, interpretation and control simply become too absurd to ask. One must really and truly go with the flow, because one IS the flow."

For me it is a dose thing. When you vape something you can get a really large dose in really quick..so it is easier to just breakthrough vaping DMT, and more are inclined to do that than when eating DMT or mushrooms. Mushrooms can and will produce a breakthrough of the same nature at a certain dose, just as oral DMT will. There is little difference for those who have been to that level with all 3. The dose is what seperates them..most people dont eat handfuls of mushrooms, or drink ayahuasca until they dissapear. I dont blame them though, I dont usually do that either..but some do it regularily.

At the same time you can smoke a smaller dose of DMT and you can walk around and participate in the trip.

Mushrooms are really just like oral DMT for me, not like LSD.

Thanks for your responses!

By 1973..I layed off tripping drugs for about 20 years and got interested in the paranormal and became a ghost hunter for about 7 years..

Then i found out about lucid dreaming and am still involved in that...

I still recall my dreams every night .. and every so often I'm lucid in a dream..!

In 73 i hitch hiked all over the USA trying to find myself and country.. with the movie ..[easy rider]... burnt into my young mind..

Now older.. I find myself happily tripping again .. and listening to the tunes of my time ..and ON CASSETTE... not on CD!

I'm happy i used LSD in my teens and early 20s and will NEVER regret it!!

I wonder if [Nick Sands] the pioneer of DMT and great LSD chemist ..who was the first to discover that DMT could be smoked has ever posted on nexus?

Wouldn't it be cool to hear from some one like that!

Keep you posted...

That was a an amazing description of the Dao and I can see the comparable merits you mentioned of the dao and the spice.

I thank you for clarifying what you meant with your original post to which I commented on.

I should of prefixed my previous post with "dose low as EZ4U2Shoot says, start very low and work your way up "

I was more commenting on your personal bravery with the spice and your lack of fear to experience everything it offers.

I did not intent to coax, bait or encourage anyone to dose high if they are not completely aware, researched, already experienced at lower doses and fully ready for what a high dose may bring.

*** A message to anyone new to the spice ***

ALWAYS start low! like 15mg low!

you wouldn't down 4 liters of vodka the first time you got drunk.
you wouldn't take 50 tabs of acid the first time you tripped.
you wouldn't eat 20 space cakes or ingest 1 oz of weed the first time you tried pot.
you wouldn't snort a line of pure coke 2 meters long the first time you got wired.

so why with the most intense psychedelic known to man would you dose high?!

START low people like EZ4U2Shoot advises, then and only then when you know some more about the spice and you have some experience can you try higher doses.

doing it any other way is foolish, the spice needs to be respected, never dose disrespectfully with any psychedelic! the spirit of psychedelics seem (to me at least) to not like a cocky "I can take more than other cats" attitude, and it often responds with an experience that will annihilate that cocky attitude! I am speaking from exp here!

low is the way to go when you don't know, ignorance with doseing is the mother of all bad trips imho

stay safe, dose low, learn your limits, know your body, know your mind, be honest with yourself.

Peace