jamie

i was merely suggesting that as an idea, not that it was the only true path to an actual valid experience, i think you took my words slightly out of context, i just meant reading about it versus going out into the world and experiencing it, not how you chose to experience it in any one particular way.

well said alpha.. and hey at the end of the day all of this shamanistic knowledge that we are supposedly lacking the ability to learn in western society comes down to the teachings of the plants... the origins of the knowledge passed down through generations.. who did their ancestors who passed this knowledge down through generations learn from? Plants. and we can learn from these plants just as any native tribe does too because they are the teachers here. the intention of the plant runs through the shaman.. he is like a mediator...it has been said before by many that nature has a plan, and at some point that it going to have to spread its tentacles into other culture. we live in a day and age where shamanism is evolving around the nature of our society and we are inevitably going to have to adopt differen't ways of healing. I don't understand why people see the amazonian way of doing things as the only "pure" way of practicing with these medicines. the nature of our culture varies so much and thus so will the nature of our spiritual practice.. neither is particularly more relevant, we just make do with what we got and we can learn a lot from each other

Some of you seem obsessed with this idea of dieta or dieting and without it you cannot fully experience hyperspace. I disagree completely. I've created my own cleanse/diet which works just fine... and I didn't need a shaman to teach me. I listened to my body.


Agreed, some people just hop on the Nexus and 'drop some pharma'. However, they usually aren't here for long. There are many, like myself, who use the Nexus/DMT as a tool to tweak our lives and might even consider the Work we do here to be part of our Craft. But in many cases, it isn't the only part.

I tend to agree with a1pha here.

I think shamans are a very culturally linked kind of tradition. The shamans of the amazon are different from the Bwiti shamans of Africa which are different from the shamans of say, the western world. What designates a "shaman" so to speak is in my view a somewhat semantic distinction with no real value. I think you have to look at what the goal is and ignore the term for a second.

Most shamans embark on a quest to help cleanse people's souls so to speak. In part this is helping people cope with anxieties or "demons". But what the "primitive" world calls demons, we call mental illness. In our modern world psychiatrists tend to serve this role through almost purely chemical (drug) means. The traditional shaman typically uses drugs too but also a wide base of symbolic and metaphorical means. In fact many religions tend to share similar rituals, such as a rebirthing ritual. Psychiatrists tend to explore infantile subconscious desires such as the case with Freudian influenced psychology, the Bwiti have members ceremonially go through leaves made to look like a vagina while on ibogaine, and Christians utilize the baptism ritual as a rebirth process such as being "reborn in Christ". If you look closely at most practices they seem to have a similar kind of cathartic impact on the psyche. So in that regards I think the best way to approach "shamanism" is to use the best of your knowledge whether it be with enthogens or what not to help people "cleanse there souls". Just my thoughts.

Okay well then in that context I agree with you. Experience is what is necessary in my opinion, reguardless how we get there.

In my own work I am more interested in reclaiming an animistic paradigm..so I dont really feel the need to adopt any specific cultural practice..I am convinced that the world dreams, and that we can dream with it..when we dream with the world we see through new eyes. Anyone can do it.

i agree some people take it too far, anyone who discredits or looks down on ceremonys for incorporating non traditional or western ideas into them are being ignorant, at the end of the day, every method is valid in its own respect. ive gone deeper and had more intense breakthroughs from smoking spice in some respects than the aya ceremonys ive done but the ceremonys had something different something more subtle, something hard to put into words.

I just think experiencing the full spectrum of whats out there in the world has its rewards.

its like spending your whole life in the same culture versus travelling and living in many different cultures you start to notice small nuances so many differences in how people live interact and do things. and the same goes for whats being discussed here!

this is a great description.

i found it interesting in the book i mentioned above when speaking to many of the mestizo curanderos, the western people who were seeking help were focused mainly on psychological issues, childhood traumas abuse anxiety issues etc, whereas the local people were focused more on illness and disease. guess its just a sign of the apparent mental illness of the western world, or of the third world illnesses that plague these countries, or perhaps a bit of both.

I guess it depends on a lot of things. For example if you wanted to train traditionally as a Shaman, then you really would be wanting to seriously consider such a trip, even when you could do most back home. I'm talking about becoming a trained Shaman here, not just someone who likes the odd drink so to speak, but someone who wants the jungle 'dieta', and to learn the icaros, etc. It has been said that it's better to learn from the plants in their natural environment.

I understand what you mean, and for a lot of people it sometimes is better to recieve healing back home than overseas.

I have to agree with Jaime and A1pha that one does not need to train under a shaman to become one, certainly not only by a Shipibo.

Many shamans have trained on their own and and in no way inferior to someone who's trained under a shaman. Each had the same teachers that are here for us all-the plants.

The more plants one builds a relationship with, the more knowledgeable and powerful one can become but traditional dieting techniques are just their proven ways to help sensitize one for better communication with the plants. Also if one wants to be a shaman one must consider the amount of discipline necessary to maintain a true shamanic path of selflessness.

For personal growth there is no one size fits all, what works for you works for you. I am in no way a shaman but have dieted many plants on my own and in my own sort of way. We all can find our own way and whats best for us, only we can know since we are all different.

To help guide us towards the plants we have this amazing tool of the internet to seek what best fits our interests and needs. It helped us guide us on our own towards dmt and can as well with any plant.

Anything else you need to learn that you cant on the internet, you can learn with the plant.

..real shamans (an increasingly rare thing anywhere these days) by my definition do this:

they show a predisposition early in life towards visions, talking to spirits, and compassion for others..in traditional cultures such predispositions were often recognised and such people encouraged to train

they become allies with the plants and spirits so as to follow a 'nature' based agenda, rather than personal (personal power = sorcery)

they do years of training firstly on themselves, and then in session, so that they are always able to maintain their central focus, whatever the conditions (i.e. they don't 'trip out' and have to stop working, or aren't scared when someone turns into a 'demon' ) ..the training involves periods of abstinence from various foods, people, or even sex in order to understand (i.e. if you haven't seen it All, including celibacy, how do you Know with certainty)

their training gives them an attitude and energy which both the community and vulnerable individuals can trust..

their central focus is on healing, by physically treating illness, removing unhelpful spirits (blockages) and helping individuals connect to the 'ancestors' or nature, which mentally/spiritually unblocks the person..

they are generally independent of financial and other power structures, taking their instructions from the medicine/nature world directly..they act as a facilitator between the plant medicines and people, offering an experienced safe set and setting

they develop techniques including songs, chanting and other ritual, which have a direct effect on the medicine experiences of the patient..e.g. the appropriate 'icaro' will open up visions beyond the simple dosage of the medicine..they can navigate through various spaces, allowing the visions or sessions to orientate in certain directions (i.e towards specific healing/answers not chaotic)
the fact that they are very good at doing this is why they are accepted/required by traditional societies in which most people are aware of how to simply brew the plants..
.

Some good information.
Shamanistic Traditions

Even better one, mostly about hallucinogens but a good chapter or two about Shamans and rituals practiced around the world