Hello people of the earth,

I have been pondering this question for a while and realized I can get the best help in here.
I am very fascinated by shamans and their thinking and function in this [and other] worlds. what I'm especially interested in is how do they navigate in hyperspace, what's the meaning of things we see and experience, what's important and what's not, what is their look at it etc.. unfortunately, I cannot just go and talk to one. so maybe there are some literature, which translates shamanic ideas and way of their thinking to a level that westerners can understand?
I have watched all documentaries I could find on youtube on this topic, also, mckenna lectures, many many of them, but probably not all, but I still couldn't find what I'm looking for. My goal is to at least a little tiny bit understand the way shamans are "doing their thing", so maybe it could help me guide myself while exploring other worlds. When I trip, I have no knowledge of what to do and where to go and how to, what's important, what's not, what is dangerous and what is forgiving etc... I believe it could help me to take more out of my journeys then just trip my balls off and not understand what might lie underneath it.

I'm sorry if it's not clear enough, english is not my first language, quite hard to formulate exact thought.


thanks ladies and dudes.

I've only known one Native North American Shaman and he was like a medical-herbal healer/spiritual guide/psychological therapist all wrapped up in one.

AMazing Question! sorry wish i could help but ive always wanted to know this just as much as you. Like what are some meanings behind some of the visions. Manny times feels like im reading a book in a language i dont understand

I had all these same questions and it eventually led me to go to college to study anthropology for a time to figure it out. Well I learned a lot there in some ways but I also realized that alot of people there would read things in books and analyze it all to death and at the end of the day have no real hand experience.

To me I jsut felt like alot of people who never had shamanic experiences would just sort of take this stuff apart and try to put it ack together without having any idea what they were talking about. I was up half the night all the time on mushrooms and then going to learn about this stuff the next morning and I felt like honestly if you want to know how this stuff works, then become a student of the plants.

The knowledge in incoded there for us to uncover. Languages and customs might differ but at the end of the day we are all just humans having that same experience.

Yes Jaime you make a very good point how to truly learn and understand something it should be through experience. You can read about something forever or hear about but there's always a difference between knowing and understanding which is only through experience. Thats how amazonian shamans do it, they don't teach their apprentices like in the manner of a teacher or guru, they guide them towards the plants which are the teachers. But then again there's some things i don't think i can figure out on my own with the plants and maybe nobody has it really figured out..

It's hard to explain really. I like to think that i am practicing to become a shaman. And people can show you things but not what nature can show you. If you really want to learn what a shaman does you have to first get a open mind and a open heart. Then you must learn the plant, understand it and the only way to do that is to interact with it and hope that you gain some knowledge from it. A great book that i find to help you along the way is the book "Sacred Plant Medicine: The Wisdom in Native American Herbalism" by Stephen Harrod Buhner and Brooke Medicine Eagle. It is the book that introduced me to shamanism and it might help to better explain what it is that a shaman does.

Shamans...
Hmmm...

In some contexts they serve cultural roles that are very complex
using an assortment of methods.

What do you want to accomplish as a shaman?

a shamans job description speaks of healing people and consuming psychedelics at times with them ,

taking care of someone , when one is stoned out of his brains himself is a very daunting task , i've often tripped with many people and in parties especially on LSD and what i've noticed is i just don't seem to be into taking care of people , all what i want to do is have a good time and the best experience , often at times tripping with a friend has been not fun when it comes down to taking care of other people if they freak out , require assistance of any kind , it just makes my own experience harder

its true i don't trip with anyone anymore , especially since i started smoking DMT i have stopped triping with people , its so much more relaxing on so many levels ,

consider all this before you decide and if thats the path of your heart then walk it

I know and understand this. I have no problem with helping people and i often feel like that is part of my calling. I feel like it is my path and that i should give it my all to try to help guide people spiritually and to help them through their sicknesses. I know its not the easyist thing to do, but i know i can do it.

I don't often think of taking psychedelics just for the fun factor, though that is sometimes the case. As with most plants i use i hope to gain something from the experience to help me with some sickness or problem I, or someone who has come to me, is having.

What was being called like?

I have been fascinated by how one cannot become a shaman or want to be one and train to be one, at least in some cultures one is called, often by a specific vision or dream.

Have you met the gatekeeper?
The one they call Saint Peter, but who isn't?

Well said. Shamans aren't healers or teachers. Their more mediators between the spirits/spirit realms.

It is through their relationship with the plant spirits that they call on to do the healing and if one wants to gain knowledge, the best way is directly through the plants.

Absolutely, and Shaman have learnt over time the best way to connect to these plant spirits with secluded 'dietas' and stuff. Now they even know what plant to use for what purpose, etc.

They are the one that has been chosen to help and heal.

Can't I be 'chosen' to help myself, learning from the plants directly -- eliminating the middle man, so to speak?

This to me seems a better route; through direct knowledge, instead of through some person severely disconnected with my human condition.

I found steven beyers book singing to the plants a fantastic and indepth account on this topic, it covers it from many different angles.

singing to the plants

and like people already stated theres nothing better than actual experience, go and stay with the shipibo for a month or longer! even if thats not possible at this time of your life set a goal and work towards it, the journey / pilgrimage forges a deeper understanding and respect of the experience. which in turn can lead to greater insights and wisdom

good luck on your quest.

Of course you can, but if you were to wish to train as a Shaman, wouldn't you want the benefits of the plants known to be great teachers to be known to you by others? Then of course you could perhaps self learn? Seems foolish to disregard centuries of handed down knowledge.

Everyone needs some assistence, even a scientist had to be shown how to use a bunsen burner....

benzyme figured those out by age 2

You seem to be under the false belief that only certain peoples in South America, specifically the shipibo IIRC, are the only keepers of the knowledge of shamanistic/alchemical arts. While I might have agreed with you 100 years ago, we live in a different age where knowledge of these arts can be transmitted through alternate means. For example, this website. I personally feel one can learn just as much, if not more, from spending time here versus living with the natives of South America.

To me, it is a waste of time and resources embarking on such a quest. (Again, to me. This is of course not the case for all.) The environmental impact of travel to South America in addition to the 'Ayahuasca tourist' mentality creates a net-negative impact IMO. I do not need to live with the natives to make my brew, nor do I need them to experience it. I also do not need their help with integration since they do not, in general, understand the culture in which I came.

I seem to hold the minority position here, but I think it is an important point to consider. That is, to practice shamanism or any entheogenic/alchemical art it does not necessarily require another human... especially one who does not understand me or my culture. Conversely, I do not understand theirs and will never therefore receive the full benefits of training under a South American native... what I believe the word 'shaman' refers to in this thread.

"and like people already stated theres nothing better than actual experience"

The actaul experience is the experience itself. It has nothing to do with who you live with. Maybe a shipibo never had the real experience becasue they never took psychedelic medicine in the western context of modern magickal practices.

The idea that one context is the actaul experience but the other is not is a fools idea.

I guess it just depends on how deep you have gone with your own practice. If you never went that deep than maybe it is just not YOUR way.

Running off to some foreign exotic land to do this work as westerner has some ups..it also has it's downs. To me it is like taking a tree and trying to grow it indoors inside of a life support tent, feeding it liquid food and baby it all day long so it grows..and it really just survives..compared to a tree that jsut grows naturally without ANY support other than the natural flow of the system around it..where is thrives and not just survives.

Of course a tree that survives can one day thrive also..but it can also take a LOT more work.

A person rooted in their own culture, in the local ecosystem, working with the local plants of that area is going to be far more in the flow than anyone else..reguardless of what far off tribe the are living with. That paradigm is strong in the west among mushroom circles, people learning to work with local grasses, acacias and many other plants. In that context we just grow as a tree does, rooted in it's ecosystem, thriving.

This is just the natural progression..knowledge passed on through communion with the local ecosystem..untainted by the cultural dogmas of other peoples.

a1pha.

dont you think the root of these teachings is beyond culture? ie the supposed hyperspace that is being travelled to for healing or harming purposes depending on your disposition, or to simply bring back novelty in the words of terence. is well beyond our common language.

therefore you dont need to be part of said culture to fully appreciate it, just being in the presence of somebody with hundreds of years of handed down knowledge, people who have devoted years of there life to dieting with particular plants.
then journeying with them, is different than just hopping on the nexus learning to extract some spice dropping some pharmahuasca and seeing what happens.

i agree with your points on sustainability in terms of travelling to peru and also the tourism aspect aswell. but there are good and bad sides to everything, and you can chose to focus on either.

I think all the paths to chose have there benefits and none should be called better or worse i guess its just preference. for me i find being in the prescence of different shamans listening to there icaros is pretty special, and i think the journey to get there and the knowledge passed down from people and plants plays a big part in the experience.

Ok, so first of all, I want to preface this by saying that I've never worked with a shaman, nor do I think one is necessary; however, having said that, the OP was in regards to what shamans do and how do they navigate hyperspace. Now, I think a main component to their navigation abilities stems from two areas, and that's sound (vibration) and attention. From my understanding, the shamans use their icaros (songs) to navigate hyperspace. This makes sense to me because hyperspace is so intrinsically affected by sound/vibration in my experiences. I have used singing as an advantage a number of times in hyperspace, but it was only in retrospect that I saw the similarity with how the shaman uses his icaro. Is there something "special" about the icaro? Probably yes and no. Any sound has the ability to affect hyperspace, and using any old song can change the course of the trip, but on the other hand, shamans allegedly receive their icaros from hyperspace. Now regardless of whether this actually is true for all the ayahuasca shamans (as it probably is not) there's a part of it that jives with my experiences because to me the DMT experience is very much an energy phenomena. When the energy makes contact with my limbs for example, it can move them into perfect Qi Gong stances with which I'm completely unfamiliar. Similarly, when I've gone to sing, there have been times where it shapes the melodies I sing. It causes me to land square on pitches with a sort of accuracy that I don't typically have as a singer (as if there were a computer in my head to give me a helping hand).

In regards to attention affecting their navigation, that's simply been another personal observation that I've had which is that where I"m paying attention or what I'm focusing on, is usually what I end up zooming in on, and what will become more and more elaborate through extended periods of focus. I assume the shaman might make use of attention similarly. So I guess I'd wanna stress again that while I don't think that a shaman is necessary, if you find a good one, I suppose you could knock out all of the experience in hyperspace you'd need to experiment and find these things out for yourself. Hyperspace can make a fine teacher in itself, but you just have to learn how to listen to it. It's not always very straightforward. 'Linear' is not its middle name.