Hello everyone, I have been taking Green Malaysian kratom as a coffee-like substitute and has worked well for months. Although that may have been the case, something weird is happening. I will get a headache after taking it in the later hours of the day ( after dinner). I find this odd.. Since I found this out, I am switching strains and have found White Vein and Stem & Vein at my local herb store. Supposedly White Vein is stimulating and long lasting. Not so interesting right? BUT Stem & Vein is supposed to be very similar to kratom but it will reset your receptors.. Isn't that awesome? Even though I was able to take 1.5grams every day and not feel the need to move my dose an inch, it is still a fun concept.

So I do have those two new strains. Have you heard about either or tried either yourself?

Thanks for reading. The headaches were concerning.

I have tried the Stem and Vein now. It is rather similar to Green Malaysian. Slight sweaty feeling, although, it's not bad. I have not tried the White Vein yet. I am slow to want to though.. It is supposed to be more energizing and I am not always up for that.

Anyway, the Stem and Vein does work at a replacement, I am curious to test the receptor reset theory.

I also noticed that I do not have to take as much of the Stem and Vein.. So maybe they are on to something. Not sure. Will post back soon.

Headache huh? That is odd. Usually kratom takes away my headaches. Are you drinking enough water? Kratom can be dehydrating.

I've had good results by mixing green vein with red vain. The best of both worlds! You could mix white with red too. Might work out well for ya.

My personal favorite is encapsulated UEI though. I have trouble gagging down that bitter grainy liquid. I also take either a magnesium supplement or a little DXM to prevent tolerance.

I may try.

About the water: It's all I drink.

I would have also guessed dehydration to be the cause of headaches - kratom can be quite the diuretic! How is your salt intake? If drinking water alone isn't solving the problem, having a pinch of sea salt might help. Kratom can be fairly rough on the adrenals and kidneys when used regularly, and a proper balance of salt in the body is important for the function of these organs.

Interesting. Do you think, from your own personal view, it is safe?

Tried White Vein. Not fond of it. Mildly stimulating. Makes me have to urinate very often.. Quite annoying.

I think it is a useful herb and can be safe for most people, as long as you keep your use infrequent and your doses low. It is interesting to me that you were able to use the same dose every day for months, good on you for not ramping the dose up!

I got really into kratom for awhile - Thai red vein was my favourite, for a nice balance of stimulating/relaxing qualities. My frequency of dosing climbed up from once every couple weeks, up to a high of 5 days on/2 days off for months at a time. As I became accustomed to the herb, my tolerance climbed, and a normal dose went from 1 teaspoon, to 1-2 heaping tablespoons. The side effects get much worse with higher doses.

With this frequent, high dose use I got a lot of negative side effects. I was also using it alongside caffeine (yerba mate mostly) which made some of the side effects worse. The diuretic activity meant I was constantly dehydrated. I also got symptoms of adrenal burnout or chronic fatigue syndrome. After a while, kratom no longer gave me energy so much as that I needed it, just to be able to get out of bed and do anything. It became a dependency relationship. I would drink kratom during the day, and then come home and nap (that's how tired I was) and be generally spaced out/dissociated during the evening, which negatively impacted my personal relationships. I also had difficulty staying asleep at night - even small noises would wake me up and then I wouldn't be able to get back to sleep easily.

As my adrenal exhaustion got worse, my immune system crashed. I got sick a couple times, and it would take me weeks to recover. I had to stop using not only kratom, but cut out all use of caffeine and even marijuana. If I had a cup of yerba mate, or smoked a little weed, it brought my sickness back. This was surprising to me, as I had used yerba mate and Cannabis daily for many years with no issues before trying kratom.

Kratom is hard on the liver - heavy users have elevated levels of certain liver enzymes, and in extreme cases can get liver congestion and jaundice. Using kratom impairs the bodies ability to process other toxins, because the liver is spending so much effort just to metabolize the kratom alkaloids.

Nowadays, I have strict rules for my kratom use. I never use it more than two days in a row (tolerance builds quickly). And however many days I use kratom, I have to take at least that many days off in between. The max I would ever use it would be 2-3 days out of a week, and even at this level the tolerance buildup is evident. It takes a good 3-4 weeks to really clear the tolerance.

I've also switched from drinking kratom powder in tea to chewing it instead. It seems to take less material when I chew it, and the effects don't last as long (which I like, I'd rather come back to reality quickly than be out of it all evening when I am with my loved ones).

There are some herbs and strategies I use alongside kratom to help reduce the side effects:
- Rhodiola rosea (1 tsp powdered root taken daily) is fantastic for supporting the adrenals and reducing symptoms of adrenal fatigue from kratom. Rhodiola also enhances endogenous opioid receptor activity in the body, and seems to both reduce tolerance and clear out the "fuzzy headed" feeling I got when using too much kratom.
- Reishi is a great herb to support the adrenals, kidneys, and all body systems really. It also helped me rebuild after overusing kratom.
- I take pinches of sea salt to help combat dehydration and adrenal burnout.
- I use other adaptogenic herbs that support the immune system.
- Herbs that support and protect the liver (eg Schizandra berries) are also very helpful.

You might not get the bad effects of kratom right away, but if you use it for a prolonged periods of time chances are some of these things will start happening to you as well. I'll say again, the main thing is just to keep your doses low, and infrequent. Listen to your body.

One more thing: Kratom is fairly unpredictable, there is so much variation from strain to strain, or individual reactions from person to person. What works for me might not work for you. My GF hates kratom, as even a couple sips makes her nauseous, while another friend routinely used to mix 40 grams into water and chug it (I would be so, so sick if I did that!). I never personally had withdrawal effects from kratom, but it does seem to have psychological addictive potential. The friend who could slam 40 grams got himself into an even deeper hole than me - his adrenals were so pooched he had to take supplements derived from bovine adrenal glands in order to be able to function.

Can you provide your source for this claim?

And just for the record, I've been taking Kratom at the same daily dose for 2.5+ years with no ill-effects (aside from the temporary headache and nausea every once in a while). But as Ilex said, Kratom is idiosyncratic and follows the rule of individual variation. It's actually very useful in aiding my studies and providing benefits with daily living. Also had my liver checked out not too long ago with no complaints of inbalance of enzymes or noted damage. Not a bad idea to get it check every so often anyway. Sorry your experience didn't turn out so well Ilex.

There is this report on Erowid you can check out regarding kratom and the liver:
http://www.erowid.org/experiences/exp.php?ID=88678

A paper on kratom and liver congestion:
Intrahepatic Cholestasis Following Abuse of Powdered Kratom (Mitragyna speciosa)
http://link.springer.com...13181-011-0155-5?LI=true

And a paper showing kratom interacts with liver enzymes that metabolize a wide range of drugs, meaning it has potential to compete for metabolism and/or interact with other drugs or herbs in the system:
Evaluation of the Effects of Mitragyna speciosa Alkaloid Extract on Cytochrome P450 Enzymes Using a High Throughput Assay
http://www.mdpi.com/1420-3049/16/9/7344

I remember reading some case studies from Thailand though, I will try and track that down again and post it.

My experience didn't turn out so well, but I learned a lot about the herb and what a safe level of use is for me, so it turned out good in the end.

Thanks for the links. I admit i'm skeptical of the integrity in the Intrahepatic Cholestasis study. He developed jaundice and pruritus after 2 weeks of taking Kratom? If anyone can get the full-text of this, I'd be most grateful. However, if this indeed the case with this one individual, I accept it. Honestly don't think this is likely with your average Kratom aficionado. Perhaps a very small portion at best. I've too read that Erowid report some time ago, it'd be nice if the author could send medical records or something beyond anecdotal. Her account is still worth noting on here.

Education and vigilance is always encouraged with chemical and botanical experimentation. Benefits and flaws are interwoven, just have to find what works for you.

I've been using kratom for several years and have no problems my liver is doing good. I have tried several varieties and have been using green Borneo to get me going ease morning stiffness. I sometimes think less is more when it comes to desired effects for kratom, I find taking a break of 4 or more days now and then helps to get the most benefits with a small dose.

I have read the reports of liver damage years ago and it concerned me very much scared me as I had been using kratom. I have had my liver checked several times in the last 2 years and I had no problems from kratom. I can believe that some people can have adverse reactions to any substance including kratom.

I understand that kratom is not for everyone I don't know anyone in my village that uses kratom though several have tried it they didn't feel it was for them. The people I know that use kratom are all onine friends.

I certainly do not want kratom outlawed and it's in danger from the FDA now. A picture of a kratom sappling

Fresh Green Malay can sometimes make me feel like what I imagine smoking too much amphetamine feels like. I have to be very cautious with it. I prefer White Borneo and mix with a red strain for morning use. This is because WB can also make me feel very anxious. Especially when it's fresh. Kratom is very strange.

I have tried many different strains over the years. Actually just got up to take a mix of some yellow and red veins now .

Kratom is a great thing and has helped my life tremendously. Glad to see people on this site appreciate it.