I agree we need to continue the evoulution of homo sapiens, but we need to do it by non-violent, non-forced methods. Like taxing those who have more than one child (population reduction).

You want to deny human beings of their most basic and important instinct because of concern over our planet? While concern of our planet is legit the way you want to go about solving it is a direct violation of human rights. How dare you say that decision to produce another life should be made in the best interest of our race as a whole. We do live on the same planet but we do not share the same values and goals in life and that can never and should never be forced onto people. What you are saying is basically eugenics and controlled breeding. The idea that I have the right to reproduce is selfish? What you are saying is the same socialistic totalitarian behavior that is ruining our world. There is no such thing as this "greater good" of humanity. Anyone who thinks they know what the "greater good" is, is a little to full of themselves.

So how will people be picked for being able to breed? Will it be based on income will it be based on their genes? Both are unfair! Sounds like a totalitarian state is what you want for your future which is something I nor anyone else should ever bow to! Controlling humans ability to breed is cruel sick and twisted and you make me sick for thinking you or anyone else has the right to make such a decision for anyone else.

But I won't just criticize your sick views on the world but offer real honest pro human rights solutions. The only sane way to bring populations under control is if people get wealthier in the sense that they don't have to worry about where their food is coming from etc and the quality of their lives improve they naturally will lean towards having only a couple of children. As people get wealthier and more educated about why its not a good idea to have 10 kids because then you need to feed 10 kids they always lean to having less children. But if they have ten kids and get more welfare or more foreign aid do you think anything will change? No it won't and thats exactly whats going on right now. Plus access to and how to use birth control helps too. Its a really simple solution our world population problems. We need to stop IMF and world bank from destroying developing countries who are overpopulating themselves because of the dire poverty they have been forced into by such organizations and former colonial powers. The final and most important issue is women's rights. If a country allows women to have equal rights as men to make the decision of weather or not they want children populations naturally drift to only having a few children.

To summarize, how to solve our over population problems:

1: Stop the IMF and world bank from plunging nations into poverty.

2: Allow those nations to develop on their own and trade as needed with private companies within those nations and NOT with the cruel brutal governments that tend to run developing countries

3: Womens rights must be recognized.



Why do you think this has happened? Because we use the IMF and world bank to control these nations recourses. We give them loans to set up government run companies that take advantage of their own people. We do not allow the people in these nations to own their recourses and sell them to us at prices that the people who own the companies decide. Instead we let brutal totalitarian dictators war lords and socialist/communist regimes who abuse the shit out of their own people do the business. Globalization based on socialist ideals and a fake form of capitalism controlled by central bankers is the problem!



Our freedom is a result of our constitutions and agreements with our own governments. Peace is a result of people choosing to work together not against each other for mutual or individual benefit. Ask yourself again why did zimbabwe and haiti get to be so bad? The same culprits are responsible everytime.



Or we stopped jamming them into so much debt and forcing brutal regimes to extract recourses from their people and land. Then they could have a chance at becoming a free and open society.



And what way of thinking is that?

Coatl in response to your tax statement that is forcing people to pay for having children! Taxes cannot control peoples population either and also is a violation of what I believe are human rights. Just having another child to pay for to feed is a burden on a parent as it is. Unless you also think that welfare should just take care of everyone and thus to reduce costs one would need to force people to breed less through tax incentives. Which is again another sick form of government.


People you need to realize what is really wrong with our world and how to truly solve it. More and more people are looking to the government or some international organization like the UN, EU or world bank to solve our problems. This is exactly the problem governments and international regulations are the problem! Does that mean we abolish all government? No of course not then things would quickly descend into chaos. The solution is to only support governments that puts the rights of its people above itself. I am a fan of the U.S. constitution for this very reason. It was written to protect the liberty of people and let them self govern on a local level. Unfortunately very few policticians obey or respect the constitution and thus all the problems with the U.S. that are constantly also spilling over to the rest of the world.

If you want to really learn whats going on I suggest looking into the history of central banking, socialism and communism and how they always lead to some kind of centralization of power or totalitarian systems and you will soon realize they are all failures and the source of many of our current problems. Those systems are the reason genocides happen they are the reason our environment can be rampaged because they can manipulate the market and thus the true cost of a resource. This really is the problem! WAKE UP PEOPLE! Every time some asshole in some government thinks he knows how to tell people how to live their life or how to make the world a better place someone else ALWAYS gets screwed over.

Forgive me if I do not wish to discuss the issue of population control any more, as I think this isn't something that we will agree on. I do accept your opinion as being just as valid as mine.

Sure we can end the discussion but I suggest if you really do hold such views that you educate yourself a bit more about how the world really works before buying into totalitarian ideas about how to run society. I don't mean to sound harsh but if anyone anywhere in the world ever said I cannot impregnate my wife I would not listen to that person and if they tried to force their system on me I would leave their society or attack that person/institution. I think a lot of people share my viewpoint on this issue. I also offered 3 very obvious solutions to the problem and I suggest looking into how they can help without violating peoples rights. Basically I am just saying we can have our cake and eat it too. I think many people would like that better then some government controlling their sex.

Are you serious? We butt-rape the Earth, dude.

Maybe the recession is gonna learn us how to apreciate life itself instead of clinging on to useless material goods. Nobody needs another cellphone, each year.
The unfair trade part wich you see taking place everywhere and that specially hits the poorest nations is something that deeply concerns me. I try to make sure that everything i buy is a fair-trade product, but the truth is that i just don't know where the majority of the stuff i buy comes from.
My sollution would be to tax products that are produced under unethical circumstances and to let the revenues benefit those who're affected by it; to support labour unions, education programs, human rights organizations etc. If we cannot stop child labour, then we can make sure that children who work in factories, work under humane conditions and have acces to education.

Haha. But yes we butt-rape the earth because governments interfere with normal market practices. For example in the U.S. oil is subsidized heavily. This keeps the price of oil artificially low so people over use it. If the oil industry was no longer subsidized prices would go up and up and people would start saying "hey maybe I should car pool or maybe I should start buying some bio fuel being made in a local area or maybe I should ride a bike to work etc etc etc". This distortion of the market by governments is the reason developed nations are allowed to butt-rape the earth. Also the lack of protection of property rights is part of the problem. Corporations own the government so people can't get the government to protect their property rights then some corporation dumps a load of PCBs into their section of the river of nothing gets done about it.



I agree and I am trying to look at this situation in a positive light. My concern is that well it is going to get worse theres no doubt about that. But my true concern is that people will look for the wrong answers. By that I mean they will turn to the government or some party or some dictator to "save their economy". Thats how hitler took over germany, its how communist regimes take over countries etc etc. That is my real concern. But I am hopeful that as the economy plunges deeper into recession people will start to look for real answers and realize the false hopes put up by the governments of the world are exactly that false hopes. The real answers are right in front of us and as of now we have the power and freedom to tell people about what they are and try to educate as many people as possible about how the global monetary system is ruining our world.



This is an interesting topic as well and again the solution is really simple. Everything would be fair trade if the people within the countries who other countries buy their goods were owning and running their own businesses. The problem with like lets say china is that the chinese government doesn't care about most of its people and can convince them to work for nothing for the "common good". Now people in the west are equally as guilty. If they just said well I won't buy products from the chinese I will only buy products produced locally then bam the problem is solved. But everyone wants cheap goods so people are trapped in a sort of situation: they like cheap goods, but they don't like how cheap goods get made. If governments really reflected the will of their people and wanted to protect their own industries they would raise tarrifs on foreign goods. But these so called "free trade" agreements have gotten rid of that simply concept. Now corporations can roll into any developing country and basically do whatever they want because of these really stupid agreements.

Plus again the IMF and world bank are plunging developing countries deeply into debt. They are encouraging the kinds of business practices that lead to the abuse of their own people.

Well going back to tantalum, it is well known that this is causing enormous misery in the Congo. UN and other humanitarian groups have reports that estimate 30% of children in certain areas of the DRC are being enslaved to mine coltan. The profits go to the government and rebel groups to finance a civil war that is responsible for the deaths of tens of thousands of people every month, mostly due to starvation and disease.

There is no way you can ethically purchase or set a tax on any product containing tantalum, because over 80% of the world's tantalum comes from the DRC and most companies don't disclose where they get it from or even which components contain tantalum.

So if you want to avoid supporting the war in the DRC you will have to avoid all:

-Cellphones
-Laptops
-Gaming consoles
-GPS
-Practically any compact electronics

And that is just one little thing in the total global economy. That really sucks.

Yes, because the governments of congo, china etc. don't care and we are gonna buy PSP's anyway, i think it would be a good idea if we would pay just a little bit more for it. It doesn't need to be that much. When this money would go to local organizations that would try to enforce human rights locally, then with consuming we would actually help people.
But i realize that i'm being naïve here.

^^I am glad prey you brought up these specific examples because I was just reading about it last night and let me point out some interesting facts.



http://en.wikipedia.org/...cratic_Republic_of_Congo

These kind of examples are happening everywhere in the developing world. The track record of the IMF and world bank is failure after failure after failure. Its ineviatable because the whole concept of building nations based on debt is insane. Sometimes I think these failures happen on purpose to move the world closer to world government.

Realize that every african nation that plunges into war is usually a result of the financial failures that have plagued those nations. Those financial failures are often a result of IMF and world bank policies. Almost every example can ultamitely tie back to loans given to the leaders of each country and what happened as a result of that initial arrangement.


Polytrip I think you are right people would not mind paying a bit more for some goods if they knew they were either being produced locally or fairly. I really think people wouldn't mind. The trouble is everyone is now worried about their financial situation because the whole world is being plunged into debt, high taxes, and government regulation over how we do business. This lowers the mobility of the middle class it forces them to look for the cheapest goods so they can maintain otherwise. This hopefully will change as the world economy plunges into debt.


Coatl I realized I forgot to reply to your initial post. If I had to set up a society in a limited jungle space, I would just tell people listen do whatever you want within this system of laws which would obviously outlaw things like theivery murder fraud etc. I would also educate them on how to sustainably manage their land. The rest should be left up to the people to build their own society. I think the concept of building a society through any one leader or organization is wrong. People should be left to build their own societies because people living and working together locally know best about how they can survive and benefit off one another.

Wow this discussion has been fun and taken up a few hours I should stop on this post for now.

I also think that it's deliberate.

Great way to put the child and mother at risk. I think over the age of thirty, birth defects and still born rates increase dramatically. Your plan might back fire and create a society of the deformed and motherless.

I do too.



I've got some stuff like that in mind... but it can't be forced, it must be weaved into the morality of the society to work.



I'd also reduce the use of extreme or expensive medicinal precedures, so the ugly and stupud would die.

In my society genetics (below love) would play the largest role in selecting a spose, not wealth or social status.

I'm glad I started this thread!

As I see it, there are three main points.

There should be a leader. I mean a figurehead, a man or a woman of charisma and compassion. Not someone power-hungry. His or her main function would be to settle disagreements and preside over ceremonies.

Then land would be allotted to families, in ecologically sensible way. People of course would have to know beforehand how to live in their surroundings.

Once in a month everyone would gather together to drink ayahuasca (or mushrooms or some other sacred plant native to that region). So that way everyone stays connected to sacredness and sanity and people will be empowered.