I've tried pharma 3 or 4 different times, each time a different way in hopes that I'd find the right combination of ingredients and timing that would result in even a mild experience. Each time was a failure, leaving me feeling nothing but the harmalas. Whilst complaining about this fact in chat, Jorkest mentioned that he had never had a misfire and didn't understand how so many people could have so many problems getting it to work. I asked him for his secret and he suggested the one route I hadn't tried yet - gelcap.

Previously I had tried harmalas and freebase DMT mixed in OJ, lime juice, lemon juice, pretty much anything acidic short of battery acid. Drank the harmalas and then when I felt it hit me, drank the DMT. Always 150mg of harmalas and 20-30mg of DMT. So Jorks suggested I try 150mg of harmalas and 30mg of DMT all mixed up in a gelcap. After some discussion we decided that based on my height and weight maybe I should up both ingredients. In the end the gelcap contained 150mg full spectrum harmala freebase, 50mg freebase harmine and 40ish mg DMT. I poked a few holes on each side of the cap and started to get ready. I hadn't really eaten anything for a few hours, so at 14:20 I ate a banana to get my digestive system going, then at 14:30 I took the gelcap.

The fuzziness of harmalas usually hits me quickly and this case was no different. By 14:45 I had a nice buzz going, but that was it. I gave Jork an update and he suggested I eat something else, but this time something fatty. My wife had just pulled out a pastry with spinach, kale and cheese so I ate a nice slice of that. Jorks advice is that if your body is digesting real food while it's digesting your gelcap it doesn't think "this is poision, I need to vomit", it thinks "this is food, digest it" and it aids in the digestion of the DMT.

I thought maybe a walk would help kick things into gear so at 15:30 I grabbed my wife and we went for a walk to the Apple store, about a half mile from our house. During the walk I began to notice my perspective and the information I was taking in slightly changing. I was *definitely* processing more data and colors seemed brighter. I was noticing slight tracers. At 15:50 we got to the Apple store and I was in full on ramp up mode. I was listening to 3 separate conversations all more than 15 feet away from me on a crowded street, and was processing each one at the same time. I was able to separate the conversations and listen and understand them all simultaneously. It was very strange. I also have no idea how my brain decided on those particular conversations vs the dozens going on around me. We entered the Apple store and I was hit in the face with over stimulation, mostly aurl. I was hearing carrier waves all over the store, but none would connect. One would start to rise, then my brain would hear another one and focus on that and as it started to rise another would pop up. I still wasn't getting much in the way of visuals but then I looked down at the floor and saw the hardwood slats moving independently of each other. I looked at my wife and said "We should leave". As we got out of the store and began our walk home I noticed CEVs every time I would squint my eyes to avoid the sun. We walked around a bit and stopped in a little plaza where the marble tiles are black with spots of white in them. When I looked down the tiles were more animated than anything I'd ever seen in my life. Each tile looked like it's own meteor shower.

We got back home by about 16:40 and I laid down. I was beginning to feel less body load, and the CEVs were very faint so I knew that the experience was winding down. By 17:10 the visuals were extremely faint, slight tracers, no more body load and then by 17:30 there was no DMT left, just the harmalas glow. I vaped hash oil for the rest of the evening and just basked in the afterglow.

All in all the experience was awesome. 3 hours start to finish with a solid 60-75 minute peak, and it definitely gave me a baseline for how much harmalas and dmt to use going forward. I would say that it was like a fairly strong LSD trip, very visual once it got going, great body load, and when it was gone it was gone. This was a great trip to establish a baseline for my body and it worked. I discovered that my body metabolizes harmalas really quickly, so my window to get the DMT in there is short and I could probably benefit from a harmalas booster at about hour 2 just to make sure everything gets MAOI'd.

Now I'm looking forward to my next trip and taking it a little deeper.

*HUGE* thanks to Jorks for all his help and suggestions - he was right, it just worked.

peace

ps

glad to get you got it to work and had a good experience.

im also really glad it worked..i hear about a lot of people misfiring..when trying to figure out pharma..but there are a few tricks you can use to get it to work

eating a bit of food...taking the dmt and harmalas at the same time...walking

Of course, 30mg is where it only just begins, 80-100mg is where the journey really begins for most people beyond very light effects, and that is related to the amount of DMT they use in the jungle with Ayahuasca as a non-visionary drink - in which Ayahuasca is considered the primary ingrediant.

The reason why so many people are misfiring is because they dose too low on the DMT. Again, 50-60mg will do almost nothing for most people. I reckon the amount of DMT in brews given to tourists in the jungle would be more like 120-200mg a that is the amount you need for the curtains come down and to really see the show.

I don't know as tho I'd agree with such a blanket statement. I know that for me, 40mg produced a very distinct experience. I've talked with several people who can fire with 100mg harmalas and only 20mg DMT and I've talked with a few who say that they don't even feel anything under 100mg of DMT. It's all about figguring out what works for your own body chemistry, establishing your personal baseline and going from there.

ps

like me...the last time i ate about 40mg dmt fumarate with 100mg harmine and 30mg harmaline..i had a super super intense and confusing 3 hour peak..and then tripped normally but heavily for another 12 hours...with visuals right up till the point i fell asleep

Most people I know do 100-300mg. For most people, they need 100mg to really begin to have visionary experiences. 50-60mg will not do that for most people ; there are exceptions of course, but this is not a blanket statement, it is an observation.

Paulsage, what you had was not really a visionary experience, it seems like quite a gentle introduction to the space, which is fine. I'm just saying that people normally dose quite high to get the visionary effects they are after and can't even begin to think of going to the apple store.

I'm making this point, because people are taking 30-60mg expecting something to happen. Sure, something is going to happen, but it is about where effects begin for most people. I've met people use are very sensitive to DMT, but they are the greater minority. Jorkest sounds like one of them.

Btw, I don't agree about taking DMT and harmalas at the same time as being more effective than separating them - waiting 30-40 minutes between the DMT and harmalas will work just fine. I'd say you can go more wrong combining them, than you can in separating them.

"Of course, 30mg is where it only just begins, 80-100mg is where the journey really begins for most people beyond very light effects, and that is related to the amount of DMT they use in the jungle with Ayahuasca as a non-visionary drink - in which Ayahuasca is considered the primary ingrediant."

Is it? according to who? Some tribes like the Napo Runa think that people who need larger doses of admixture to be able to see the visions are just weak curranderos. I dont think there is a concensus across the board here.

Who conciders ayahuasca with just vine or low admixture a non-visionary drink? Do you have a link that states that? Lots of curranderos talk about the visions produced from the vine and many tribes drink only vine for its visionary and purgative qualities.

what is interesting about this chocobeastie is that paulsage had tried doing just that before...and didnt get any effects from the dmt...so i mentioned my method to him..and it worked...

and in my experiences..ive never been able to get the dmt to work when i stagger my harmala and dmt dosage...call me crazy

As you can read in the OP's post he tried doing it your way and that did not work for him. When he tried taking them together it did work. Remember that Ayahuasca is almost always taking the harmalas and the DMT at the same time and that works as well.

Taking 100-200mg of DMT with pharma to get visions sounds like some people are maybe not taking their DMT efficiently. Maybe taking the harmalas and DMT separate need a higher dose of DMT to make it work?

With pharma I always took 100mg of DMT freebase as a top level dose, this combined with harmalas gave good visions and journeys. 180mg of DMT would cause blackouts with me with remembering nothing of the experience but an orange/yellow glow.

One thing to make even more efficient use of DMT for pharma is to take the DMT as DMT-fumarate. Many salt forms of DMT are faster absorbed by the body than freebase so you reach a peak from the DMT faster too while having to use a smaller amounts. For me 75mg of DMT-fumarate is stronger than 100mg DMT freebase (and actually thus too strong for my liking).

Taking the harmalas in a salt form might work better too. The fastest time ever that the harmalas hit me was when I dissolved them in fruit juice and let that site for hours before taking, the acidic solution of the fruit juice likely made a salt form out of it though I am not sure what kind of salt form (it was pomegrenade with apple and raspberry juice).


Kind regards,

The Traveler

30-40mg may well be what a largely non-visionary dose of ayahuasca may contain in Amazonia. Everyday people take it for its health benefits, but not so much for its visionary qualities. Remember that Ott and McKenna had difficulty in the 80's finding a brew that gave them visions because people out that way don't go for the visions as the first reason to take ayahuasca. They are taking the vine primarily.

I'm just responding to a lot of posts here of people saying "it aint working!" and I'm saying, you are not using enough DMT! Simple!



hey, whatever works for the individual! I've always had the most consistent results taking DMT and harmalas apart in regards to pharma. But normally combine a large amount of vine and DMT and that works well too!



Just do the math in what people in western Jurema ceremonies take. 10-15 grams is normal. That is 100-150mg at least assuming good quality Jurema which is 1% plus.

People here seem to be working off Ott's conclusions, and a few are getting effects from small amounts of DMT like 30-60mg, but if you read the threads, many chine in and say they need 100-200mg. And I'm saying, yeah, that is normal.



Sure, and I know people who need half a gram of pure white crystal freebase for it to work well for them. Each individual is different of course. I meet more of these people who need very large amounts than people who need very small amounts, say 30-60mg to get visionary effects!

and he upped his DMT dose to 50mg, giving a nice light experience which I would expect from that amount of DMT!

And thats where I stated that those people are probably not taking their DMT efficiently. But you probably discarded the information that followed somehow...

DMT-fumarate is easy to make as is letting your harmalas sit in an acidic juice solution for a few hours. This combined can make your DMT supply probably last at least twice as long.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

oh snap...

One of the first attempts I tried was exactly what Trav mentioned, letting the harmalas sit in juice for several hours. I actually let both the harmalas and dmt sit in seperate juice vessels for several hours, drank them 10 mins apart and nada.

chocobeastie - you're so wrapped up in trying to prove how right you are that you're missing the entire point of my original post, and that is that I found what worked *for me*. Hopefully that will give insight to someone else who is floundering like I was.

This weekend I'm going to do 150mg harmals hcl and 45mg freebase dmt in a cap and see what the difference for me is between the salted vs freebase harmalas, if anything.

One day you might try the following (if you like of course):

Get a glass of fruit juice and put into it:
* 75mg of DMT-fumarate
* 200mg of harmala freebase

Let this sit for a few hours and then drink it (so you take the harmalas and the DMT-fumarate at the same time).

The cool thing about oral DMT-fumarate is that it is absorbed faster than freebase. So if you compare DMT-fumarate with freebase at the same weight then with DMT-fumarate you get a higher level of DMT in the blood at a faster pace.

Per weight DMT-fumarate only contains 76% DMT, so besides that you have to use less of it compared to DMT freebase it also contains less DMT per weight too. This way you can safe a lot of DMT if you use it orally!

How to make DMT-fumarate: The FASA Method


Kind regards,

The Traveler

actually if you read the post he took 40mg of dmt

and also i would like to point out..that taking a full on breakthrough dose of oral dmt isnt what people are looking for all the time..

i mean..everytime you take lsd do you take over 1000mics? or sometimes do you take 150mics to have a NICE trip..where you can be here and also have some of hyperspace leak through

i mean..heroic doses are just that..heroic..thats not the end all be all of dmt...sometimes its more useful to take lower doses...and sometimes its useful to take higher ones..

they key to all this is inhibiting your mao system as efficiently as possible...but taking tons of dmt is just wasteful when you dont have your mao's inhibited...

why take 150mg of dmt..when if you do it right...30mg will do the same thing

i dont know about you...but dmt doesnt fall from the sky like snow for me...so i make sure that my body isnt going to break any down until AFTER im done tripping

Thanks for sharing the report, paulsage.

I find the western pharmahusca method fascinating, although there's real danger with using maois this way. Personally, I would tread lightly, as with using them one can get into deep water real quick and stay there for a long time. Small doses of each, ie baby steps is always wise, as Jorkest advises. Btw, are there medications that would cancel the experience, if required?

Yes, I would like to know the real dangers too and also what you mean with 'this way'.


Kind regards,

The Traveler

@Parshvik Chintan + @The Traveler – there are surely dangers (psychologically + life-threatening) in administering an maoi in combination with an entheogen in a self-experimentation scenario (ie, overdosing 'by accident'?