Erowid on ayahuasca:
"Also, as with any intense psychedelic, ayahuasca can precipitate short or long term changes in personality or catalyze psychotic or neurotic episodes."

Erowid on DMT:
"Individuals with a family history of schizophrenia or early onset mental illness should be extremely careful because psychedelics have been known to trigger latent psychological and mental problems."

Of course, their use may also benefit mental health (certainly SWIM believes so) but one must ask:

-Is there truth in these statements, or are they merely disclaimers?
-If yes, then is it ethical to introduce someone to ayahuasca or DMT?

Sorry for yet another health post, but I think this could be a good informative thread

The quote states that it could be problematic to introduce someone whose family has a history of mental illnesses especially schizophrenic history to intense psychedelic drugs .

Different Mindstates always have the possibility to re-traumatize or destabilize , if the latent "psychosis" is in a developing stage.
They can also be helpful :
To set a culmination point , the point where an existing psychosis reaches its peak , and afterwards ceases.

Working with someone who has a serious mental diagnosis like "Borderline" or "Schizophrenia" and strong psychedelics can never be taken easy,
because those tend to be somewhat destructive - at some point - which will mess with the average tripsitting mind, especially when unprepared.


This being said :
It is no problem to properly introduce an "average person" (Normal-Neurotic).
Most people these days are raised to be like that (Normal-Neurotic)
Its even rewarding to introduce them to the freedom of Higher Mindstates.

yes its a thin line to give psychedelic to people diagnosed as schizophrenic. The trouble is that schizophrenia is a common name that includes several different kinds of expressions.

I do believe that some people called 'schizophrenics' might benefit from psychedelics/entheogens in some situations and some moments. There have even been researches with this with child schizophrenia in the 60s that had good results.

I also think one must be very careful as for some cases, in some moments, it might be a very destructive thing to do. But so might be giving alcohol, imprisonment, stress, general negative stimulus, excessively emotional events etc... So I wouldnt say that psychedelics can cause or precipitate schizophrenia any more than the things mentioned before.

But if one is thinking of introducing a labelled schizophrenic or maybe also borderline person to psychedelics, I think its a very very risky thing to do. Its a lot of responsibility, and I honestly wouldnt be up for it. I do feel some people might have the sensibility to know the schizophrenics that can or cannot benefit, but even these people know what a fine line they are walking on

The thing is, how can one tell if someone has a latent problem that hasn't manifested itself yet?
Would they show recognisable symptoms or not?
Do you have to sit them down and go through a checklist of their intimate personal and family mental health?!
Some of SWIM's friends want to try spice when he tells them about it, but however small the chance, he wouldn't want it on his conscience that he had totally messed someone up.... his friends are interesting people, they are in no way 'average people'.
For example, one friend, aside from being a lovely well-rounded girl, also says that she receives 'messages from the universe' that no-one else notices, and says she can sense ghosts... he found excuses to not introduce her to it, just in case. Not saying that she's crazy for believing such things, maybe she's right, but they're not usual beliefs and without being a psychologist himself, how can he judge if she is 'sane enough' to smoke it?

Can anyone point to any studies actually proving that aya or DMT can trigger such latent problems? (Also for mescaline if possible) If not, then for all we know it could just be something people say 'just in case'... without foundation.

Psychedelics always carry the risk of changing someone. For better or for worse. The risk is higher in those with mental disorder or a family history of mental disorder. But this risk is also inherent with those who are of a normal Neurotic state, wether they have done psychedelics before or not. Everything a person does is at his own discretion. But with that being said, if your friends are of a normal neurotic state, they should be fine if it is done in a comfortable and FAMILIAR setting. I truly believe that familiarity is key for first timers. Make sure they are completely relaxed before the experience and have not recently had an emotionally devastating incident in their lives.

Even if they receive messages from the universe and sense ghosts when they're sober?

I think especially in her case you can't promise to experience like you did/do , could be way different.

I once had a girlfriend who sensed presences , once saw them standing around her bed , was scared of the dark , idealized me and dreamed really creepy things... Thats why im interested


Some questions

Has she made the feeling of receiving messages from the universe or sensing ghosts accessible for you in any way ?

Why does she want to try DMT ?

Who introduced her to the stuff ? How long does she know about it, and how much ?

Has she tried other drugs before,does she take something regulary ? Any Medications ?

Do other people in her family take medication or substances ? Does she have good relationship with them ?

How does she live ? Does she have fears ? Does she dream well ? Did/does she have panic attacks ?



I recommend mushrooms and MDMA ,in a not familiar but ideal setting , this should make things more clear













BTW Your avatar is made by great 'Rad El Baluvar' isnt it ?

Psychedelics always carry the ability change someone. For better or for 'worse'.
I think better is always the option.
The urge is higher in those with mental disorder or a family history of mental disorder.

With those who are of a normal Neurotic state, wether they have done psychedelics before or not , its even more of an opportunity , with the proper input and guidance
Sometimes unexpected things happen , That would be an Spiritual Emergency , nothing unusual.
( www.cpsh.org www.senev.de )

Hey man, thanks for the interest.

I don't really know what you mean by accessible. When he first visited her house she told him to not mind the ghost in the corridor and that he was friendly. He felt uncomfortable because he doesn't like ghosts, mainly because he doesn't trust people in general and ghosts are just dead people (he likes plant spirits etc, like how he likes animals... it's just people he's wary of because they can be nasty). And because he saw a sinister ghost when he was a kid (although that doesn't mean he believes ghosts to be conscious beings) and felt like a couple of rooms in the house where he grew up had an unsettling presence. So after he told her that, she told him about how she will just be at a bus stop or something and suddenly she will hear a message from the universe, and no-one else around her seems to be listening to it, but she can hear it. Also she says that when she was little she had imaginary friends that she would play with alone all day long, and that she would climb trees and talk to the trees for hours

After he told her about it- he was so enthusiastic about it when he discovered it that he told every friend who was leftfield enough to be cool about something like that! She loves elves so said she wanted to try it.

She only knows what he told her, so just his take on the experience. She hasn't tried it yet.

He hasn't asked, because the whole message from the universe thing made him decide to launch into the 'it's very intense blah blah' speech until he could decide if it was a good idea to introduce her or not. She doesn't seem to do any drugs now, but not sure about in the past. He doesn't know if she's on antidepressants etc but he'd be surprised if she was because she's very outgoing, friendly, sociable, popular and motivated. I guess the fact that she's lovely already makes him wonder whether he should be jeopardising how she already is!

The subject's never come up. Most people are kind of removed from their family in this city, it's a place of young adults.

She lives in a rented flat that she's furnished nicely with her gay friend. She doesn't seem to have fears or panics and I don't know about her dreams. She's talented, motivated and fun, a real organiser, always getting people involved in creative things.

Ahaha, swim doesn't do either so he wouldn't offer her either! He finds shrooms confusing whereas he likes 'thinking' entheogens like mescaline and DMT. He doesn't do MDMA because you have to buy it off dealers, and he gets depressing comedowns anyway. She doesn't need MDMA to have fun or empathise.

I don't know... I found it on one of those picture uploading sites where everything uploaded is shared. If it was on there without permission then I'll stop using it if the artist wants. It's awesome, isn't it! I'm sure it must be aya inspired.

Well, Wikipedia says they haven't seen any evidence. I know Wikipedia's not exactly a sound source, but it's something. No-one here's mentioned any evidence to the contrary as yet and some peeps here seem as read-up as one could get. As fo DMT, just the standard psychedelic warning without evidence for the particular chemical.

SWIM has seen pharmahuasca benefit people with mental illness.

SWIM has also a long time ago did mushrooms with a friend who was descending into some type of schizophrenia. It was his choice so SWIM doesn't feel bad about it at all. He actually seemed more normal when he was tripping then he ever really did before. But not long after that trip he started to really lose it, rambling on more then usual, paranoid for no reason, talking about things that weren't happening. Eventually he ran away (he was in college with SWIM living nearby) and the only thing we know is that his parents called saying he had lost it and his only response was "I came down with something". SWIM will never know if it was the mushrooms that made things happen faster but there is very little doubt in any of SWIM or SWIMs friends minds that he was losing it anyway.

Who knows anyway SWIM says fuck it someone who is going schizophrenic is probably going to go schizophrenic anyway so why not give them a chance to feel like everyone else around them who is also tripping. It makes them seem normal. But that's only SWIMs wacked out opinion on all this, SWIM is a bit crazy also

He hasn't asked her yet actually, he didn't want to delve too personally in one go. I doubt it's anything violent, that doesn't seem in her nature. He was wondering if that was a sign of latent schizophrenia or something, as he heard that schizophrenics hear voices in their head (though asn't heard of them coming from 'outside' the mind).
He has asked her now and she's never taken any drugs other than alcohol and coffee, and just 5g of cactus he gave her once.
It's a good point though, he will ask her what the universe tells her!

thats what i meant when i asked whether if she made her 'experience' it accessible.
What makes her identify the Universe as Universe ? Cosmic Voice ? Cosmic Message ? Revelations ?
Just these words alone , dont help you understand what all the stuff means for her ,
you dont have to get into that stuff with her , if its too personal , but then, don't even start to think about it for her .

I hope it is going to be pleasant journey for her

I remeber a thread on bluelight, where a DMT experience made the voices of a schizophrenic stop. Search for it.

I read it too , but ,im not really shure if it was on erowid . The person in the report had an psychotic outbreak , i think he was diagnosed with schizophrenia. Smoking DMT made the Symptoms subside, leaving him calmed down for some days afterwards. Maybe I'm going to find the report somewhere ...

pscyhological trauma in general can be the trigger for psychosis, as my psychopharmacology teacher told us psychedelic dont make people crazy they just trigger latent psychosis. It was probably bound to happen at some point. ManicBipolars seem to be very vulnerable to entheogens... and it can be hard to diagnose until the symptoms get pretty bad. but Ive seen quite a few bipolar manic diagnosed folks have long lasting psychotic episodes from entheogens. mostly acid or mushrooms or E...but then again most folks dont go for the more exotic stuff...
SWIM has had panic attacks and psychotic episodes , disphoria while under the influence of aya. really scary... and SWim also knows of a man who in the amazon with an expert shaman attempted suicide because he thought there was a snake in side of him and gutted himself in the river with a knife... Swims friends had a hell of a time trying to save his life way up river like that... and the guide was a piece of shit who didnt want to help because of legal liability... ahem... SWIM still thinks this guide who is becoming a popular author on the subject of aya is a dirt bag... for this.

SO... as far as your freind who can see ghosts and feels she gets messages from the universe... well sounds like a shaman... is a shaman mentally ill or unstable because they may see ghosts, spirits or get messages from the universe?

Ive worked in a pscyhe ward for years now... acute involuntary psyche ward... and Ive worked as a shaman and I have worked with and studied with ayahausceros for many years...
I think much of the mental health benefits of the medicina comes from the individual ingesting it and from their belief system as well as from a shaman in general. In the santo damie and UDV it seems to help people because there is a cultural frame of reference and its taken for healing, and there are transpersonal methods of delivering or producing wellness that the entheogens on their own just dont have.

In many ways I feel that mental illness has much more to do with society and culture then any thing else... one of tibets national treasures was a Lhamo a woman who shamanicly heals

I would guess that one danger is to suddenly realize, how much of interhuman connection has been taken away by our dominatory culture. Could make a real intense emotional impact if you havn't really thought about what you could have been missing.

totally the shock of finding out that there is another part of life hiding behind the veil is really a traumatic shock to some.

Thanks for all the responses.
This revelation is what makes life worth living, the world needs magic! Was it H.G.Wells who said that famous thing about how all adults need to rediscover the wonder in life, to see the world through the eyes of a child? I always forget who it was, but it's an amazing quote.
So bipolar people should stay away from entheos? A LOT of people are borderline bipolar, I know at least 2 (neither of whom partake).