Me and my sister were raised in the same home, I became an addict, she did not, it effects us completely different and has absolutely nothing to do with how we were raised.

Though i realize environmental factors play a role as well.

Here is a decent article... http://m.voices.yahoo.com/cocai...vs-caffeine-7554906.html

yes I agree with you that in group of drugs that i feel are harmful, addrall is one of them, its just a repackaged form of methamphetamine, like oxycontin is of heroin, and just cause there legal people somehow are dumb enough to be fooled by the government/pharma that they are good for you. Again problem of people here and everywhere that believe they are good for you besides being legal looking only at the short term benefits, not the long term repercussions which far outway the benefits. cocaine is def no acception and no jaime i dont think anyone can have a "benificial non habit forming relation to cocaine" i repost my original post that gives reason n truth to my argument:

first u cant compare lines of cocaine with coca leaves, ive had both and the effect is very different, one is a nice warm feeling that spreads through your body, very mild stimulant that provides a happy and content feeling from it, and the other a much stronger and ego-inflated euphoria. No benefit in anyway comes from cocaine use in fact the other way, all it does is feeds the ego, gives a false sense of happiness, high probability for addiction...You see, plants slow down the mind to a more natural state (like in their nature) and heal, chemicals(cocaine,mdma,meth...) speed up the mind taking you further from natural state and feed the ego, plain and simple and if anyone thinks otherwise than they are misinformed or being fooled. This is why terence mckenna NEVER promoted one chemical( http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QAnhBMU8D4M ), plants have spirit and can be guiding and healing, chemicals do not. You might enjoy them while there lasting but i bet the next days your not feeling so well. The last thing id do is add that poison to dmt!

For me it seems that chemically cocaine is to coca tea just as much as DMT is to ayahuasca, whether a poison or a cure is more or less a matter of dosage as with any substance. i hope everyone finds their path no matter what it is as long it's the one for them! i try not to get too emotional over how someone else makes that decision for themselves.

but it is extremely interesting to me how a tea from the mountains would mix with a brew from the jungle, from a cultural standpoint as well as evolutionary biology. Do the plant sources thrive in similar geographic location? If so, do the users of the separate chemicals self-segregate culturally, if not, do they mix the drug, as in a coca admixture to ayahuasca?

If the plant habitats are geographically distinct, could there be evolutionary reasons for coca to develop for use by mountain tribes, and DMT plants to develop for the jungle peoples, and for the jungle peoples to be incompatible with the mountain peoples from this essential difference in their sacred herbs. where's the happy line there

Thanks to whoever brought this up, definitely food for thought

My only experience with DMT and cocaine together was an altogether horrible one. One of the worst DMT experiences I've ever had, actually... Thought there is reasons that it went down how it did.

A friend of mine does cocaine quite regularly, and was over at my house using my milligram scale and purifying his cocaine (using my 99% acetone to dissolve the majority of the cuts in the coke, and leaving the pure cocaine, which is insoluble in anhydrous acetone) and after we were finished, he asked if I wanted to do some, just to see what purer cocaine was all about. I agreed, having never tried purer stuff, just street, dirty, cut stuff. So I busted up a "normal" sized line, and proceeded to snort it. Admittedly, it was WAY nicer than street shit, though it was decidedly stronger too. I got quite high, quite quickly.

I didn't have any spice at this time, but earlier that day I had found an old chunk of copper scrub pad that I had used in my "Machine" when I was just starting out trying DMT. So it was a couple months old at this point. It had a TON of residual DMT on it, for whatever reason, although I imagine most of it was DMT-oxide by this point.

My friend left, and I decided to throw the piece of pad in my GVG and vape it. I did so, and without realizing it at first, I took in a HUGE hit. I held it in as long as I could, and upon breathing it out, I passed out. I awoke a couple minutes later, completely disoriented, didn't know where I was, who I was, or why I was there. I looked around my room, and it looked like it had been blasted apart by a bomb. I was like "WTF???" and I opened up my blinds. Outside looked the same, all blasted apart and glowing red and flaming. I was entirely convinced a bomb had gone off at this point, and I was the only one left!! I started panicking, screaming and running around. This continued for a minute until something in my head told me "Hey, don't you remember smoking DMT?" and I had to sit down and calm myself until these horrific visuals passed. Eventually I was back to baseline, and very thankful to be there.

Now, this was my worst DMT trip, by far... but I assume it was a combination of factors that brought me there. The cocaine, being pure, hit me HARD. The large amount of residual DMT, taken all at once. And possibly that much of the DMT could have been DMT-oxide? I honestly don't know what that factor would have added. Either way, I will never do cocaine with DMT ever again. I believe it added a very terrifying, speedy aspect to the DMT.

"plants have spirit and can be guiding and healing, chemicals do not"

Well I am an animist so I will have to respectfully disagree with you there. In my worldview everything has spirit, not only plants or animals. Crystals, rocks, rivers, mountains etc all have some sort of a spirit or an energy signature that is their own. Why should a dry plant have a spirit but not a crystal(which is what these purified chemicals are)? To me saying mimosa for instance has a spirit but something like pure DMT crystals or even and LSD crystal cant have a spirit is a reductionist point of view. I prefer whole spectrum plant extracts to just single molecules but that is not really relevant. I still think that a pure harmine crystal has it's own spirit or energy to it even though I prefer it in ratio with harmaline crystals.

A whole plant might have a different energy or spirit to it than a single crystalized molecule..but that is like saying an organization of people have a different energy than one of the people within the organization as an individual..does not mean one does not have it's own spirit or energy though.

You know, there is a tribe in africa who has a long history of use with different plants that they have used for "shamanic" purposes..yet somehow they were exposed to 2cb, and they actually prefer the 2cb now and this is what they are using for their ceremonies still..I wonder how they would respond to the idea that their preferred medicine has no spirit becasue it is not a plant?

DMT is also a pure chemical..sure it is found in nature, but so is methamphetamine(it's found in trees). I have been guided and experienced many many healings with pure DMT crystals.

Just becasue something is a plant does not mean it slows one down to the pace of plants or something..what does that even mean? Plants grow at all kinds of different rates..and some plants are stimulants that speed people up and dont just slow them down. If I drink a full cup of coffee I wil start to shake and get feeling of panic and pace around like a freak for an hour or so. I cannot drink more than a couple sips and sit still. Def does not feel like it just slows me down to the pace of plants..yet it is the whole beans of a plant.

Without getting sucked into this whole debate, I'll throw some impersonal experience out there. I don't recall taking DMT with cocaine myself, but one of my friends did while I was there on two occasions. In typical DMT fashion, one time was earth shattering fantastic for him and the other time wasn't much to speak of at all. Personally cocaine doesn't really do much for me, and isn't worth doing for the addiction. DMT does a lot for me, and I don't mind any addictive tendencies I have towards it. Plain and simple.

for what its worth, i often take amphetamine sulphate with my acid, i enjoy that slightly manic, hyper tripping (wich is funny, because i otherwise really dislike stimulants)

so in a way i can see what the OP is saying.

At the same time, we all know Cocaine (especialy freebase!!) is highly damaging.

different strokes, but also bewwaaare of the big bad cokes

yes most chemicals do derive from plants and something an amazonian shaman told me was that all plants have spirits that can heal/protect/teach, or cause harm, depending on how u use them whether abused or respected. These notions of plants and plant spirits are not mine but shamans so if you if u disagree with this your are disagreeing with the shamans of the amazon and sacred knowledge acquired directly from the plant spirits not from you. Your and most people's viewpoints on this are based on ideas that were easier to conceive and believe than the truth.

I could give examples of this for ever. Obvious one tobacco, a sacred plant teacher when respected and used properly can be one of the most protective plant spirits that exist, but when abused well we all know how bad cigarettes are for you. And when these sacred plants are striped of all their plant essence into a chemical, you are stripping away their spirits that are beneficial. Why things like mdma,lsd,research chemicals, alcohol.. many times ive taken thought i felt good and happy , but in reality i was given a false sense of happiness and benefit and like Terence says, "a trickster is something that is doing you good in ways you would never suspect." and this made perfect sense by looking closely at how I felt days following. Almost every time i noticed my ego inflated and energy drained the days following. Not like changa or ayahusaca for example, where always the next days i always feel better than before i took it. The difference with ayahuasca to almost any drug is that it takes you into the darkness and then into the light, not the other way around.

The spirits in the plants can be guides through the other realms and without a guide it is very easy to get lost. This tribe that uses 2cb, well i don't think i would support this new modern custom they decided to take part in, just because one tribe does it doesnt mean its beneficial. Id rather stick to something thats been used for thousands of years by men women and children. Like Terence said, "for deep work, for lasting work, its the shamanically sanctioned traditional plant hallucinogens that carry us into really deep water, spiritual purposes"

Not saying chemicals cant be educational, ive learned many things from them but the most valuable thing i learned from them is not to take them. We need to focus on healing ourselves, take what brings you home not what makes you lost, and most people dont even realize they are lost. yes these ideas are very "out there" perhaps too much for even psychedelic folks like ourselves, but one must keep an open mind and view the importance of discipline towards the bettering of oneself.

I agree with what you are saying, divine.

I think the whole reason why someone takes Ayahuasca is because they are trying to find themselves in this world of confusion. Actually, i would say that even users of any drug are doing the same, although they may not even realise it.

The problem comes when people take a drug in order to 'modify' themselves, when in reality they should just learn to accept who they are as special individuals. Of course, society and media are terrible for trying to make us humans conform to a homogenous race.

I'm sure that chemical drugs can be used positively if done in a ceremonial way with positive intentions and stuff, and this would mean using small amounts in a controlled manner, and have nothing to do with the way they are typically abused in society.

However, Terence is right, these chemicals have too big a 'trixter' factor.

Much safer, and much better to use the proven plant teachers IMO, and get some respect of our plants in the process. And the Coca leaf belongs to them.

Like i already have said, the whole point of using these plant teachers would be to return to our true selves, and cure ourselves from the ways that modern day living often 'disconnects' us. No medicine should 'modify' use to conform to what society wants, like some antidepressants do, NO, we want to be ourselves, and be real.

You're making the faithful assumption that he did in fact acquire that knowledge from the plants and isn't simply fabricating it or imparting his own traditional bias on these issues. It's easy to acquire a lot of knowledge from ayahuasca that's legitimate and still turn around and just say something for one's own personal gain. Don't forget that the shaman has economic stakes here in this matter as well. It's in his interest to promote plant use so he can be paid for ceremonies. So I just want to be clear that when we're disagreeing with you here, we're not necessarily disagreeing with the sacred amazon: just you and the shaman. I've had crystal DMT give me sacred knowledge as well. Am I to discount it under the technicality that some shaman (who has no intrinsic credibility) says he doesn't think it's legitimate?

You have a good point Global, although there are many plant teachers that can be used without shamen.

I first learned about this knowledge from a village shaman that heals the locals that barely takes any money, not the tourist shaman, and confirmed that this knowledge is wide spread through a couple other shamans during my 2 year stay in Peru. And more than just believing something that i was told, i described in previous post how through personal experience it all fell in place. Always a difference between knowing and experience. So dont believe something cause I or anyone tells you, just keep open mind and open eyes.

This does not eliminate the personal bias possibility though, even if he was not a commercial shaman.

Ive given freebase DMT to an amazonian shaman who absolutely loved it and thought it was very spiritual and very special for him. Maria Sabina has taken pure synthesized psilocybin and said it contained the mushroom spirit in it. The shamans jamie mantioned preferred 2cb to their traditional plants.

Also notice many shamans use plants that can be more dangerous, including datura related plants, poisonous plants, etc.

Recently there was a research done with thousands of indigenous people in different areas of Brazil (published by Veja magazine, not sure the month) and the overwhelming majority of them mentioned they also want access to standard western medicine appart from their own traditional ones.

There are shamans that say with ayahuasca diet you should never drink alcohol, while the Shuar haave a ritual where they drink fermented alcoholic drink together with ayahuasca. There are tribes (maybe the shuar too) that take coca-based preparations together with ayahuasca (I can try to find the source once im back home in a couple of months). There are tribes that think ayahuasca helps with peace, there are tribes that use ayahuasca to go to war. There are tribes that consider datura something of evil spirits, others use it for spiritual growth and exploration.

There is no consensus amongst tribes, and if you travelled over a wider area in the amazon you probably realized this. There are several different ethnic groups, there´s diversity even whithin one ethnic group, there´s diversity of thought within even one tribe.

Also, we are slipping here back into one reocurring (ad nauseum) discussion, ´natural vs unnatural´, which you can find in many threads by running a search,, and in this discussion we can clearly see once again several logical fallacies such as ´appeal to tradition´ and so on, which do not make an argument more valid.

I think it would be more appropriate accepting the differences as equally valid if they do not affect you negatively. If someone or a group can use synthetic products or extracts in a way that is sustainable and that helps them, great. If you dont want to use it, thats fine too, its your decision. But thinking its wrong or less legitimate or less spiritual than your own decisions, thats just projection of your ideals, it´s a belief that is just as valid as any other belief.

I think what is relevant about the original cocaine + dmt post imo is that cocaine itself from the black market involves two main issues: First, the big unsustainable weight related to deforestation, polluting manufacturing/extraction processes, violence and so on. Secondly, the fact that virtually every batch of cocaine is adulterated with some very nasty and toxic products (including but not limited to levamisol, phenacetin etc etc). If one wants to experience cocaine with dmt for some reason (I personally have no interest but each one to their own), Id suggest try some coca leaf preparation instead, or making a crude extract on your own and seeing how that goees, because with this way you avoid supporting a nasty industry and have a clearer conscience as you consume your product knowing what it contains.

Also please be careful with health issues that may be present related to this mixture, depending on one´s personal health condition and any medication being consumed.

I don't think this is a clear cut argument.

What I would add to the discussion though is that plant based natural substances normally do not cause significant suffering to people outwith those that take them. Normally. There is still scope for abuse of natural substances in a harmful way and unethical harvesting.

Synthetic substances due to the vast profits associated with their consumption can leave a trail of misery from source to consumer.

I fail to see the difference in the "suffering" to anybody between whether I choose to vaporize pure DMT crystal, or consume ayahuasca instead. In my case I would be using the same mimosa bark.

Maybe I didn't make myself very clear Global. What I was getting at was the profits that go into organised crime. For example the cocaine trade and the misery that it causes rather than the difference between vaporizing dmt crystal or consuming ayahuasca. As long as the mimosa bark is harvested sustainably I see no difference in your ingestion method.

"These notions of plants and plant spirits are not mine but shamans so if you if u disagree with this your are disagreeing with the shamans of the amazon and sacred knowledge acquired directly from the plant spirits not from you. Your and most people's viewpoints on this are based on ideas that were easier to conceive and believe than the truth."

You hold a very limiting point of view..and I am going to go out on a limb here and call you a rationalistic dualist. You are doing the same thing many scientists do but sort of in reverse. Categorizing and seperating things..this has spirit but that cant have spirit etc..that is dualism and rationalsim. You dont see the whole. Many people do this when it comes to plant spirits vs chemcials etc but they act like they are not rationalists becasue they talk about spirits. It is a fallacy.

For one thing, why are you lumping my views in with the the rest of "most peoples" view? Most people in the west are NOT animists, do not believe that inanimate objects like a rock or a crystal have a spirit etc. How are my views as an animist being lumped together with most peoples viewpoints?

How is my animist viewpoint easier to conceive than the typical western point of view that observes everything as dead inamimate objects etc? To make that statement you must have either not even read what I said or you just dont understand what animism means. I dont know what else to say to you here.

To assume that plants can have spirits but crystals cannot hold spirits is just plantcentricism.

In reality your views do not represent those of most indigenous peoples I should think. Just becasue you spent some time with indigenous curranderos does not mean their opinions can speak for ALL indigenous peoples. I studies shamanic cultures at college and animism is a common trait among most of them..the dont differentiate between what has a spirit and what does not have a spirit. Sorry but what you are saying is not consistant with animistic worldviews. It is likely a lot of curranderos have views that are also tainted by western ideals. Animism implies that there are spirits within everything. A pair of Nike shoes could house a spirit in animistic models of reality. Crystals definatly could house spirits, whether it's a hunk of quartz or a hunk of DMT.

BTW, Terrence Mckenna took lots of pure synthetic DMT crystals and raved about the stuff..in case you never heard. He also was working with pure synthetic psilocybin the summer before his death. He was a big fan of microdosing LSD also. He was hardly against using pure alkaloids.

When Claudio Naranjo way back in like the 60's maybe 50's went to the amazon to learn about yage he brought a sheet of acid with him, to trade with the natives. He appraoched them as if he was a western medicine man and LSD was his medicine and he dosed them. These people loved his LSD and said it was great medicine and so in turn they taught him about Yage.

I have heard multiple stories now about curranderos in the amazon who love vaporized DMT and think it's great.

Some curranderos work with pure camphor crystals in ceremonies for cleansing etc..try and tell them a crystal has no spirit.

You cant just come here and be like "oh I drank ayahuasca in peru with a currandero my vies represent views of the entire amazon". That is laughable.

I have drunk ayahuasca hundreds of time and smoked DMT hundreds of times. I dont need to refer to amazonian peoples to figure out what my views are on the subject here.

"I first learned about this knowledge from a village shaman that heals the locals that barely takes any money, not the tourist shaman, and confirmed that this knowledge is wide spread through a couple other shamans during my 2 year stay in Peru. And more than just believing something that i was told, i described in previous post how through personal experience it all fell in place. Always a difference between knowing and experience. So dont believe something cause I or anyone tells you, just keep open mind and open eyes."

Everyones viewpoint has it's limits. Everyones. Jungle ayahuasqueros included. Crystalized plant extractions etc are something from out world, not theirs. What makes one guys view the authority when even other jungle curranderos will say something else entirely? The fact that african healers in a tribe have favored 2cb over the rest of their visionary plants is proof that not all indigenous healers or shamans in animistic cultures agree with you.

I think you are getting close to building up ideas in your mind about these people that are not realistic..this is just like the noble savage syndrom. These people are all just people. They dont know everything just like the rest of us. They have their taboos and we have ours.

I agree, you can't really say a plant has a spirit but an extract or essence of the plant does not. It would be a double standard. I believe everything has spirit and make the allegory of music and places like spirit of jazz, spirit of new Orleans, we all have vibes.