Hey all,

This might reveal my research laziness in not going over Ott's (1994) book well enough, perhaps, but I was interested in knowing why the practice of both preparing and ingesting the MAO-I separately to the spice-containing plant seems to be preferred in analogues? Particuarly when Acacias are being used, it seems, according to Raetsch's (2005) text - http://www.erowid.org/ch...a/ayahuasca_info11.shtml


I am about to commence a series of experiments in Acacia Phlebophylla and Peganum harmala analogues, at a ratio of 20:3 as remarked in pp-63 of Ott's text. I would prefer to simmer it all together as a singular brew, for an hour or so, and then of course ingest as a singular brew.

Is there something more effective about first ingesting the MAO-I (10 or 20 minutes before) and then the spice-containing brew? Surely the spice would still be in your system and thus a delay in ingestion would seem to be unnecessary?

Raetsch's text seems to list the 'classic' analogue using Chacruna as a single-brew preparation, but then both the 'Jerumahuasca'/'Mimosahuasca' (with Mimosa bark) and the 'Acaciahuasca' (with Acacia bark or phyllodes) as a separate/delayed preparation.

Why is this?

I have about 80g of fallen, dried Phleb phyllodes which I was planning on simmering for a while with 12g of the Esphand (p. harmala) and the juice of 4 lemons, to produce roughly 4 doses. Anything wrong with that?

Thanks for any info you might have!

X

Sounds like a big journeay my friend! enjoy also you are supposed to consume the maoi about 10-15 minuets BEFORE the dmt, to begin inhibition before the dmt hits your stomach.

Thanks Shadowman-x,

That's kind of what I was asking, I'm just not sure why some brews have it so you consume the MAOI and the dmt at the same time, and others the MAOI 10-15 minutes before the dmt. You say to begin inhibition before the dmt hits your stomach - my question is will it matter if you consume at the same time?

I want to consume them as a singular brew. Will this lessen the effect? That is what I'm asking.

The interesting thing is Ott's work on the Phlebophylla was when the Phlebophylla were known to contain around 1% DMT (underground researchers), so 20 grams in that instance is 200mg of DMT. (a good solid dose). You would not want to take more than 30 grams at that time. Since the fires have gone through some years ago the regrowth has appeared, for whatever reason, that the phlebs are known to be less potent.

I'm not aware of any tests on the recent batches of phyllodes (in the last few years) but most people seem to need use 30-40-50 grams of Phlebophylla these days which would imply that they contain around 0.5%. Of course, the alkaloid content is variable and seasonable as well, but generally appears pretty consistent with this species at various times.

As for you original question, it is best to take the brew 30-40 minutes after taking the MAOI. Thing is, with Rue, you don't want to take a large amount, say, 7-10 grams of Rue, because high rue dosages tend to provoke more nausea and various negative effects. Whereas, you could take 30-40 grams of vine, which would a lot of time be enough MAOI to catalyse the DMT, if you took the vine, and then the brew 30-40 minutes later. However, what most people do, is use 70-100 grams of vine, and combine the DMT and MAOI's in the same brew. This amount of MAOI allows the MAOI to work to prevent MAO's (in the stomache?), I'm not sure it is exactly well known how this works.

To sum up, you can take large amounts of vine brew, and it is often better and stronger, but taking large amounts of rue brew, will result in, often negative side effects, so you need to determine what that will be, it need not be over 5 grams for most people's body weights. If you consume 4-5 grams of rue and some phleb brew, it *might* work, but you are best to take them separately, enjoy the onset on the rue (assuming you have a good batch) and then take the brew.

If you had some ayahuasca vine, I would take 70-150 grams of dried vine and the phleb in the same brew.

I think you will find 20g of Phleb to be insufficient, and would recommend at least 30 grams to start off with. And you might want to put down the "literature" and read up more on current research, especially in the ayahuasca.com forum archives.

Btw, a lot of people out there would be quite against you taking phyllodes from the ground, as they say you are spreading fungas among the plants, I find this quite precious as there are walking tracks right besides the plants anyway.

Thanks for that Chocobeastie.

However, Ott does mention the Phleb as being 0.3%, not 1%. It's only ever been tested as 0.3% as far as I know. Talk has been about younger phlebs after the fire being weaker, however this Phleb isn't from the mountain but rather the fallen leaves from an older, mature tree elsewhere.

As for the combined/separate question:

I guess what you've written does answer my question - it just seems that with the Rue, you can only take so much before it gets too toxic because of the different harma alkaloids, then - so it's advised to only take a certain amount, no matter how much dmt-plant one plans on ingesting. That what you're saying?

Therefore if one has 80g of Acacia, one would just make a brew of say 3-5gs of Rue, take that, then 10-40 minutes later take however much of the acacia brew one wishes to take. But to make sure one keeps the rue to that limit, and no more.

Not sure how MAOI chemistry works in the stomach, but would that amount be enough to inhibit stomach MAOs to the point of being able to take a hypothetically unlimited amount of oral dmt to the same effect? Or would one have to take more MAOI to inhibit more MAOs to make room for more dmt? You get me?

I was thinking if, say, I make a single, combined brew of 3:20, so 12g of Rue and 80g of acacia, then decide I want to re-dose, I might be ingesting too much rue, leading to toxicity. Therefore separately is the only option for rue.

Is this what you mean? I guess that makes sense and explains the necessity, according to Ott and Raetsch, of preparing Rue analogues separately.

Hey Robert,

One test of phlebophylla in 1967 by Rovelli and Vaughan does not mean that Phlebophylla is always going to contain 0.3% DMT. Like I said, underground researchers ascertained that content was more like 1% before the fires came and since then around 0.5-0.6%. Sure, you can believe there is 0.3% because of one test done decades ago or listen to what I am saying here about what people are getting from it these days and realise there is great variability.

And, if you are dealing with a mature tree grown elsewhere, your alkaloid content could be anywhere from 0.1 to 1% DMT. The only way to know is to do an alkaloid extraction and find out!

Also, you need to wait about 30-40 minutes before taking the DMT containing brew.

Yes, dosing separately is the only way to go with the rue.

3-5 grams should inhibit MAO for 4-6 hours. full stop. there is not much more to it.

Also, Rue is variable in its alkaloid content as well. Generally, I like to go with 4-5 grams, more like 4 grams which is a kind of sweet spot for me with most batches.

Chocobeastie.. was the 1% finding from phyllodes or bark though?
And yeah I agree bout the dead phyllodes.. plus when your driving up the mountain the troughs on the side of the road are full of dead leaves even when your not immediately next to a tree. Would wearing gloves protect the trees from fungus at all? how is it spread?

1% is from phyllodes. I am told the only way is a protective suit!

The fungas is spread from shoes and clothes largely. But like I said, people walk these tracks and spread the fungas anyway.