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An attribute of mystical experience Options
 
Ripheus23
#1 Posted : 12/22/2012 7:41:30 PM

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The following is from the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy entry on mysticism:

Quote:
3. The Attributes of Mystical Experience
3.1 Ineffability

William James, (James, 1958, 292–93) deemed “ineffability” or indescribability an essential mark of the mystical. It is not always clear, however, whether it is the experience or its alleged object, or both, that are to be ineffable. A logical problem with ineffability was noted long ago by Augustine, “God should not be said to be ineffable, for when this is said something is said. And a contradiction in terms is created, since if that is ineffable which cannot be spoken, then that is not ineffable which is called ineffable” (Augustine, 1958, pp. 10–11). To say that X is ineffable is to say something about X, which contravenes ineffability. This problem has been raised anew by Alvin Plantinga (Plantinga, 1980, 23–25) and Keith Yandell (Yandell, 1975).

Several responses to this problem are possible for the mystic. One is to avoid speech altogether and remain silent about what is revealed in experience. Mystics, however, have not been very good at this. A second possibility is to distinguish first-order from second-order attributions, where “ineffability” both is a second-order term and refers solely to first-order terms. To say, then, that something is “ineffable” would be to assert that it could not be described by any first-order terms, “ineffability” not being one of them. A third possibility is to say, for example, that “X is ineffable” is really a statement about the term ‘X,’ saying about it that it fails to refer to any describable entity. A fourth possibility lies in the ongoing negation of whatever is said about X, ad infinitum, in what Michael Sells has called an infinite “unsaying” or taking back of what has been said (See Sells, 1994, Chapter 1).

An example of unsaying can be found in the endless negations in some Madyamika and Zen Buddhist meditative consciousness. Since the truth about reality – as it is – lies outside of our conceptualizations of it, we cannot say that truth, only experience it. Hence, when we say, “Reality is not reality,” that is, that reality as it is differs from what we take it to be conceptually, we must also say that “Reality is not - not reality.” Otherwise we will have been caught in conceptualizing about reality (saying about it that it is not what our conceptualizations say it is). We must then immediately negate the latter saying by saying that reality is neither not-reality nor not not-reality. And so on. (See Thich Nhat Hanh, 1994, Chapter 5). A second, theistic, example of this approach is in the negative theology of (Pseudo) Dionysius (c.500) for whom God was “a most incomprehensible absolute mystery,” about which we can only say what it is not. Such continuing negation points beyond discourse to experience.

A fifth possibility for resolving the paradox of ineffability issues from William Alston's observation that mystics professing the utter unknowability of God have had much to say about their experiences and about God (Alston, 1991). Alston maintains, therefore, that when mystics talk about ‘indescribability’ they refer to the difficulty of describing in literal terms, rather than by metaphor, analogy, and symbols. This is not a peculiar mark of mysticism, demurs Alston, since quite common in science, philosophy, and religion. Alston's position, however, may not square well with the explicitly “unsaying” trends in mysticism.

A sixth solution to the ineffability paradox could come from Richard Gale (1960) and Ninian Smart (1958, 69) each of whom have argued that ‘ineffability’ is (merely) an honorific title marking the value and intensity of an experience for a mystic. Similarly, Wayne Proudfoot argues that mystics could not know that what they experienced could not be expressed in any possible language, because they do not know every possible language. He concludes that the ineffability-claim only prescribes that no language system shall be applicable to it, and is not a descriptive claim. The word ‘ineffable’ serves to create and maintain a sense of mystery (Proudfoot, 1985, 125–27). These positions beg the question against the possibility of there being mystical experience so different in kind from what humans otherwise know that it cannot be expressed by ordinary human language. Against Proudfoot it may be said that: because mystics could not know that a mystical object was indescribable in any possible language, it does not follow they would not, in their enthusiasm, make a claim beyond their knowledge. In any case, mystics might reasonably believe that since languages known to them cannot describe what they experienced, in all likelihood no other human language could describe it either.

Some philosophers think that a stress on ineffability signifies an attempt to consign mysticism to the “irrational,” thus excluding it from more sensible human pursuits. Grace Jantzen has advanced a critique of the emphasis on ineffability as an attempt to remove mystical experiences from the realm of rational discourse, placing them instead into the realm of the emotions (Jantzen, 1995, p. 344). Others have staunchly defended the “rationality” of mysticism against charges of irrationalism (Staal, 1975). The issue of ineffability is thus tied into questions of the epistemic value of mystical experiences, to be discussed below in section 8.
 

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hixidom
#2 Posted : 12/22/2012 11:15:23 PM
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Ok... It seems like the paradox is in the word "ineffable", not X itself. For example, if we define "ineffable" to mean:

"indescribable except in its indescribability"

then the paradox no longer exists, as far as I can tell. Obviously, anyone who has ever used the word "ineffable" was implicitly using the definition above. Assuming otherwise and then deeming a person's claim to be irrational is a straw man argument, in my opinion.
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Global
#3 Posted : 12/23/2012 1:50:47 PM

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As far as I can tell, this is less of a paradox and more of a logician's language game. In trying to poke holes at the propositions is to be overly technical, semantic and to miss the point entirely. It's not that nothing can be said about God. That's not the point at all. It's to say that there are features or aspects to God (or the mystical experience) that cannot be verbalized. This is where the symbols and metaphors come in. If it is said that something is ineffable, that person is trying to convey a certain degree of indescribability to the audience. You'll notice that in most trip reports of ineffable experiences....well we still do have some descriptions. They're simply gross oversimplifications, metaphors, analogies, symbols, etc...

In regards to the issue of there being other languages that could describe it: yes it's possible, but it seems to me irrelevant because if that language is unknown to the experiencer, it is effectively irrelevant to him, it is ineffable and because the mystical experience is so experience based (hence all this talk of ineffability), getting caught up in the semantics of a mystic trying to convey the most important experience of his life seems kind of silly.
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Michal_R
#4 Posted : 12/25/2012 11:17:45 AM

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"Experience" always belongs to a different order of reality than an "utterance of it", isn´t it?

I wonder how having a first hand mystical experience would change one´s belief that it is actually possible to use language to express it.
 
Ripheus23
#5 Posted : 12/25/2012 12:06:17 PM

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Michal_R wrote:
I wonder how having a first hand mystical experience would change one´s belief that it is actually possible to use language to express it.


A mystical experience might just be *defined* as inexpressible, although that might turn out to be an attempt to settle a debate using definitions. I would say that I know I've had many mystical experiences, and although requiring a singular effort to map, I still can map them. But maybe the fact that intellectual cartography is available for my experiences means that, despite my belief that they (the experiences of mine) are mystical, they're not.
 
Michal_R
#6 Posted : 12/25/2012 9:31:24 PM

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Ripheus23 wrote:
I know I've had many mystical experiences, and...I still can map them...


I also think I can sort of "map", or give some kind of subjective "meaning", to the ´mystical´ experiences I have had... but then I am always forced to realize that I am not able to voice them to someone else, neither in spoken nor in written language...

For me, there lies a great divide between one´s subjective experience (incl. mystical experience based on transgression of one´s ego; an experience of "ineffable" beauty, horror, and novelty - all these mixed together and magnified far beyond one´s previous wildest imagination) and inter-subjective communication via conventional language...

After several failed attempts to tell/explain/describe my DMT experience to a third person, I gave up trying...
 
 
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