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Sustainable Energy for Growlights (need help) Options
 
SKA
#1 Posted : 9/6/2012 11:36:25 AM
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Hai fellow nexians,
I've been meaning to source the seeds of various entheogenic
plants and grow them in an indoor greenhouse. I sadly lack a garden.

The main obstacle to this is that my energy costs are already rediculously
high and growing lights would only add significantly to those costs....

Unless I drew the electricity required for the growlight(s) from a renewable, offgrid
source. Like wind or solar energy. With this I seek your advice & help, cause I'm not
at all experienced in this area.

I have available a decent amount of roof area which is very sunny in the summertime
and very windy in the wintertime. So Solar- and Wind-energy are the 2 most available
energy sources.

For a windgenerator I was wondering... How many windgenerators would I have to make and how big would each of them have to be to be able to power a single terarrium-lamp for +/- 12 hours a day for 6 months straight?
The windgenerator could be made super effective if it used diamagnetic levitation instead of a fixed axis to hugely decrease friction. The slightest puff of air would cause fast and longlived rotation. Youtube search for "Bismuth Diamagnetic Levitation" and you'll see what
I mean.

Anyone with experience building and running windgenerators, please give share your knowledge here.

I'm also interrested in low-tech means of turning solar energy into electricity. Any ideas and concepts concerning low-tech solar generators, please share.



In short; I'm tryig to figure out what it would take to power 1 grow-light for a greenhouse
in which I wish to grow Acacia Podalyriifolia, Acacia Simplex, Acacia Acuminata and maybe a Salvia plants and a San Pedro. Anyone with experience with this who can give me an idea?
 

Good quality Syrian rue (Peganum harmala) for an incredible price!
 
wearepeople
#2 Posted : 11/30/2012 3:13:46 PM

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what's the wattage of your light?
And how many hours do you run it a day?
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Lost travellier
#3 Posted : 12/2/2012 4:38:25 PM

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- You probably also are necessary the blocks of the converters, stabilizers, is charging-controlling devices for batteries for issue of the unceasing feeding on your lamps... Shocked
I am believing, that ten years through all these devises will be on sale everywhere and cheaply as Chinese mobile phones today Very happy
But while... Need to begin with serious calculation of efficiency and studies already working similar device.
But in any event - good luck in get good the deal! Smile

p.s. You used all ways increasing to efficiency of your growlight?


 
Vodsel
#4 Posted : 12/2/2012 5:46:22 PM

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A steady power output for the requirements of an indoor will be relatively expensive, even if you know your stuff. Panel, inverter, batteries... if you have money and it's a long term project, you might go for it, but if money is the concern it might make more sense to invest in top efficient lighting.

What lights do you use? Ever considered LEDs?
 
The Day Tripper
#5 Posted : 12/2/2012 8:36:09 PM

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Theres really a few things you have to consider with solar/wind-

effeciency, as far dc/ac rectification (inverters), wattage produced that actually gets put into battery chemical potential, and dc/dc conversion assuming its necessary with your solar setup. Personally, i'd opt for dc led's for solar power, as you skip rectification (dc battery/solar watttage > ac line voltage), which loses ~%10 of power effeciency. Granted, you still need dc/dc converters to regulate the voltage coming out of the batterys (ranges from 11.5-14.1v depending on state of charge), but dc/dc converters can be very effecient. Though led's have narrow spectrum bands compared to hps/mh, or even better spectrum spread cmh lights. You have to consider the wavelength of your leds, since some won't do anything since the plants can't use that particular wavelength of light for photosynthesis.

Prices on solar panels, and battery banks are also a big factor. Pre-built panels are very expensive, if you DIY and make your own frames, wire up solar cells yourself, you can save a TON of money, but you have to really pay attention to protecting it from enviromental factors, mainly moisture. Then you need a good amount of lead acid battery's to store the energy, and a decent charger to keep them healthy. PWM chargers work best to prevent sulfation and prolong battery life, as well as charging the battery's fuller than non pulsed chargers.

For example, if you had to power a 400w light 12 hours a day, thats going to require 4.8 kilowatt hours of power to run. Meaning you need to get more than that from your panels on average, or tie into the grid to makeup for the difference. That means, at least 500w+ of solar panels, possibly even a bit more since the sun doesn't shine all the time, seasonal changes in the amount/intensity of light means you won't get 500w/h from your panels in the winter, and the sun doesn't shine bright enough 12 hours a day anyway to get the max wattage from your panels. So you need to overshoot a few hundred watts in terms of solar panels to account for effeciency losses in rectification/charging, and the fact that they don't kick out 500w all the time, or consistently day to day depending on the weather and season. Rule of thumb, solar is very expensive. I don't think its practical unless you plan on spending a few thousand on a system, or do it yourself on a smaller scale.

Then theres batteries. You prob want a battery bank that can provide 1.5 times the power you need to run your lights, if theres no solar/wind power charging them. For a 400w growlight on 12 hours a day, lets say 500w taking effeciency losses into account, thats 6 kilowatt hours of battery potential. Or a 500ah 12v battery bank, basically a handful of deep cycle car batterys, or a good number of sealed lead acid UPS batteries of smaller ah capacity. As well as decent charger to charge that bank. All the batterys have to be identical too if you want to charge them using one charger, you can't mix/match sealed/flooded lead acid batteries that of different age or usage wear, some will be overcharged (possibly gassing and exploding), some will be undercharged unless they are all the same.

Wind using an alternator, and a dc filter to charge a battery bank works too, but once again, 400w for 12hrs a day is going to need alot of hardware to get that much power. Much cheaper than solar, but the wind has to blow to get any wattage out of it obviously.

If you really want to pursue this, i would find the most effecient lights/system for your indoor grow enviroment, use a killawatt power meter to see exactly how much power you will need, and you might be surprized at how expensive alternative power is.

Not that its a endeavor not worth pursuing, its a hobby of mine as well, but its expensive. Consider diversification of power generation methods, if you live near running water that slopes downward, diverting the flow through a pipe downhill using gravity to gain pressure, and a turbine/alternator to produce wattage is another option as well.

Perhaps, you should look into a well insulated greenhouse, semi-passive geothermal heat pumps (20ft down, the ground maintains 50-60f year round, run a radiator loop down there, insulated pipe to the surface, a dc pump to circualate water through a radiator in the greenhouse and you can grow outside in very cold climates without spending $ on power to heat it electrically). Then see how many hours of usable light you get naturally, and just turn on your lights as necessary. Arduino's and other smart microcontrollers are a good option to design effecient automated systems like this.

Another cool idea i had, was using geothermal heat pumps like i previously mentioned, and exploiting the peltier thermoelectric effect to generate electricity based on the heat potential between the ground (50-60f) and either really cold outside temps, or hot outside temps. Peltier thermoelectric devices can pump heat using power, or generate power between a thermal potential. If you use a passive parabolic solar hotbox to heat water in the summertime, and pump that (insulated) to a copper waterblock like used in computer watercooling to one side of a peltier device, and the same for your geothermal constant 50-60f system on the other, assuming you can get really hot water or really cold water in the winter, theres a possibility of net energy gain after subtracting the wattage needed to pump the water loops by exploiting this temp difference. When the ambient temperature is near 50-60f its not practical as theres not much thermal potential to exploit, and this is all an untested theory of mine, idk if it would even have a net energy gain after powering the pumps.

If sustainable energy is something that interest you, i would research/learn/teach yourself about physics, power electronics, maximizing effeciency in terms of thermal transfer and loads you need to power. Theres lots of solar forums, electronics forums, and books/ebooks you can find about all this. Start with general electronic theory books, and always tinker/expirement to test what you are learning, start on a small scale first.

If you can convert your house to led lighting (very energy effecient), and power that off a hundred watts of solar panels and a small lead acid bank, or large single cell, you can teach yourself to build far more advanced systems. I started off with a 20w panel, and built a backup battery bank kept on a float charge in the event of power outages. Now i'm working on switching all of my lighting (as far as residential, not growing) to dc leds, and expand my solar setup to be able to power all these without using an inverter, since its more effecient. Once thats done, and i use my killawatt to estimate my power needs for lighting, i'm going to build a panel and design a lead acid bank/charging mechanism to run all the lights off solar. Baby steps in essence.

Arduinos are very neat little devices for projects like these as well, they are cheap and so versatile as to what they can be used to do. Whether it be a solar charger controller, led lighting controller, energy usage monitoring/logging, or whatnot.

I'm devoting a chunk of my time to learning about this, and think its a great think to know about as far as meeting your individual energy needs in the future. Since if peak oil is true, our economy will have to change, otherwise food production, distribution, power generation, heating, etc all are heavily reliant on oil and thus if change does not happen, demand will exceed production and people will starve/freeze to death.

I'm not waiting around for someone else to find a solution to those very real problems, i'll try and take care of myself in that respect. Hydroponic indoor/greenhouse food production is a very smart thing to look into, considering how dependent food production (at least in america) is on hydrocarbon fuel. Sustainable energy production and permaculture/ecology is what you need to learn about to understand how to be self reliant in that regard.


TLDR summary- get some ebooks/books on electronic theory, especially power electronics, research effeciency maximization in terms of insulation of heat, and energy effecient loads you need to power, get an arduino to play around with, and start on a small scale. Once you understand it a bit, and make some mistakes to learn from, it becomes alot easier to scale/build what you want to accomplish.

Just know commerical solar is very expensive, and your best bet is building your own panels if you don't want to spend a fortune. Keep in mind effeciency maximization, don't skimp on chargers/converters, and learn as much as possible about the theory behind all the electronics involved, otherwise its easy to make costly and avoidable mistakes. Like frying chargers or dc/dc converters, which i have a bad habit of doing personally Laughing, but you learn why what you did wrong, so you don't waste money doing the same thing again.
"let those who have talked to the elves, find each other and band together" -TMK

In a society in which nearly everybody is dominated by somebody else's mind or by a disembodied mind, it becomes increasingly difficult to learn the truth about the activities of governments and corporations, about the quality or value of products, or about the health of one's own place and economy.
In such a society, also, our private economies will depend less upon the private ownership of real, usable property, and more upon property that is institutional and abstract, beyond individual control, such as money, insurance policies, certificates of deposit, stocks, etc. And as our private economies become more abstract, the mutual, free helps and pleasures of family and community life will be supplanted by a kind of displaced citizenship and by commerce with impersonal and self-interested suppliers...
The great enemy of freedom is the alignment of political power with wealth. This alignment destroys the commonwealth - that is, the natural wealth of localities and the local economies of household, neighborhood, and community - and so destroys democracy, of which the commonwealth is the foundation and practical means.” - Wendell Berry
 
Yerba
#6 Posted : 12/2/2012 11:17:50 PM
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I wonder if it might make more sense to just use efficient lighting here, and to expend efforts elsewhere to help offset the pollution?

Meaning that the net effect of spending your resources on something like growing local food might be be more effective than trying a small-scale solar or wind turbine to power your lights.
 
The Day Tripper
#7 Posted : 12/3/2012 2:11:19 AM

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Yerba wrote:
I wonder if it might make more sense to just use efficient lighting here, and to expend efforts elsewhere to help offset the pollution?

Meaning that the net effect of spending your resources on something like growing local food might be be more effective than trying a small-scale solar or wind turbine to power your lights.


You would need a net input of energy depending on your climate. Thus, perhaps instead of growing indoors, assuming were talking about legal (lol) plants, a thermally insulated greenhouse with solar powered heating when needed (or a semi passive geothermal underground heat pump radiator system to maintain temps when it gets too hot/cold for the plants), or additional lighting as needed would be ideal. In any case, LED grow lights are not fully developed, and you might be using more energy with something like a ceramic metal halide, but the light quality and spectrum spread is better for the plants.

Think of it like leds produce light in a single wavelength, the sun produces light in a variable wavelength, grow lights are somewhere in between, ceramic metal halides offering the most "full spectrum" lighting. If what you are growing works good with the leds you use, then by all means do that. Just keep in mind alot of light emitting diodes, especially high power ones not specifically meant for growing plants might not be very effective grow lights.

The most effecient way to do sustainable power indoor growing using leds though, is not using an inverter. Which by and large means you aren't going to be using commercial lights and it will have to be a diy thing. In which case you need to research what wavelengths you need to grow what you want.

In any case, if you do go solar/wind, don't jump into a diy approach without spending ALOT of time reading on the subject, and particularly power electronics theory and application.

And to be honest, not all solar/wind/independent power generation is to offset pollution. Where i live, within a 100 mile radius there is a river that collectively produces 1000+ mw of hydroelectric power combined, iirc theres like 4 or 5 pumphouses/turbine generation stations throughout the watershed in question. IE, most of the power from the grid i get, is sustainable (debatable, since long term affects of messing with the watershed are unknowns), but still clean at least. This is only possible though since its mountainous terrain, and significant elevation drops allow high energy generation potential in a short distance, thus making hydro feasable and economic.

I pursue it for fiscal reasons, and because i don't trust centralized distribution grids when the shit hits the fan, economically, geopolitically, or socially. Or Like how we had several days of power outages this summer from wildfires in the area.

If you really want to offset pollution though, you are right in advocating growing your own food locally. IMHO, thats prob where a significant portion of hydrocarbon energy is expended, fertilizers, farming equipment, water supply to commercial farms, pesticides, distribution of that food to retailers, and all the energy wasted in retail (i speak from expirence, its kind of disgusting how much waste, both as energy and resources, exists in supermarkets), is significant, and not practical as it stands without cheap oil.

Well not really (cheap hydrocarbon energy), since our tax dollars pay for subsidies that make oil affordable so you are paying more than you think for hydrocarbon energy, be it gas, lpg, or all the resources we wouldn't be able to afford without those subsidies.

I guess it just depends on how your local utility generates their power, and how you feel about being reliant on a centralized distribution network to get it to you, or the people that grow/transport/sell your food to you. Or how an EMP nuke or CME solar flare could take that entire system down, and you would see 3rd world conditions in america, people would starve to death.
"let those who have talked to the elves, find each other and band together" -TMK

In a society in which nearly everybody is dominated by somebody else's mind or by a disembodied mind, it becomes increasingly difficult to learn the truth about the activities of governments and corporations, about the quality or value of products, or about the health of one's own place and economy.
In such a society, also, our private economies will depend less upon the private ownership of real, usable property, and more upon property that is institutional and abstract, beyond individual control, such as money, insurance policies, certificates of deposit, stocks, etc. And as our private economies become more abstract, the mutual, free helps and pleasures of family and community life will be supplanted by a kind of displaced citizenship and by commerce with impersonal and self-interested suppliers...
The great enemy of freedom is the alignment of political power with wealth. This alignment destroys the commonwealth - that is, the natural wealth of localities and the local economies of household, neighborhood, and community - and so destroys democracy, of which the commonwealth is the foundation and practical means.” - Wendell Berry
 
Lost travellier
#8 Posted : 12/3/2012 5:32:49 AM

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It Much is interesting written! Thumbs up Thumbs up
 
SKA
#9 Posted : 12/14/2012 4:14:39 PM
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Thanks, all, for the large amount of info.

I am still wondering about something. Let's say I decide
to grow the rather tropical Acacia Simplex in an indoor
greenhouse in cold, dark Northern Europe. Off course I'd
build that greenhouse next to my window on the south for
maximal sunlight.
And let's say that I could keep the temperature & humidity ideal in there, but
I cannot afford to turn on growlights for hours everyday to compensate for the
lack of natural sunlight...

Would an Acacia Simplex just grow really slow under such conditions?
Or would it just die due to the lack of sunlight?

 
MelCat
#10 Posted : 12/14/2012 4:45:08 PM

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I recently acquired an Acacia Simplex plant and I had it in a south facing window sill here in Florida because we've been getting a lot of rain and I was concerned that her roots would stay too wet and rot.

Anyway, she started turning yellow and wasn't looking very healthy at all so I put her outside and she perked right back up with the extra rain and all.

I know this doesn't help your situation much considering I'm in Florida and you're in Europe but it does seem like acacia simplex really needs as much light as you can provide her.

I would suggest having at least some T5 florescent lamps on hand to give some supplemental light in case she does start turning a little pale.

Good luck!
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Vodsel
#11 Posted : 12/14/2012 5:03:07 PM

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Regarding the Acacia, and if energy expense is a concern, you can look into the new T4 fluorescent bulbs as well. A 20W tube is even cheaper than a T5 and has an A+ energy rating, so it consumes very little and is very cost effective. I fitted two in one small indoor grow and the difference is obvious. If you want to have some supplemental light handy (and chances are you will need it eventually) you will hardly find anything cheaper and with lower energy consumption than that.
 
 
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