Dear Non Dua Natura,

Thank you for your extraordinarily informative reply. I am also active on Dharma Overground and Kenneth Folk Dharma (though not as EmptyHand). Maybe we'll meet there sometime and grab a beer!

About a month ago I started having strange bouts of "causeless" anxiety and episodes of "de-realization" where reality started to feel extremely tenuous. That is when I jumped onto DhO and FKD to see what was causing these experiences. I was primarily practicing breath-following samatha, though also sometimes rather "formless" versions, "settling the mind in the natural state" and samatha without a sign (awareness of awareness), as described by Alan Wallace. I also was practicing dream yoga. The responses I received from DhO and a few direct students/friends of Daniel Ingram were basically to the effect that concentration was probably causing my strange experiences. Therefore it is interesting that you don't agree with that diagnosis. In any case, at the moment the intensity and uncontrollability of the experiences has thankfully subsided somewhat.

If you have the time, I would love to hear how you integrate entheogens into your practice. I myself am on a break from entheogens while I sort out my practice and unusual experiences.

Incidentally, the link in my first post in this thread was to Britton's podcast on Buddhist Geeks.


Again, thank you!

eH

No probs! You'll probably be able to guess who I am on the DhO by my style of writing, although I haven't posted much for the last month or two. I've probably missed your post so I'll go back and have a look through them, unless you want to drop me a PM with the link and I can try to respond on there.

I'll throw a few ideas out there based on what you've mentioned here and see if anything useful comes of it.


If you're observing the breath in this manner, it's essentially vipassana as you're engaged at the level of bare sensation rather than, as you would while doing pure samatha, taking the entire breath as object. Interestingly though, in the original suttas the Buddha did not make any distinction between vipassana and samatha, the distinction is a later, commentatorial addition.

"Awareness of awareness" could be described in lots of ways but at its heart its an insight practice, not concentration, and so will lead a meditator through the progress of insight. This sort of practice is more common in Zen and Tibetan traditions than in the Theravada.


Again, this is essentially a form of insight practice as you're examining your experience while in the dream-state and seeing whether or not permanence, self or satisfactoriness can be found there either.

From what you've said here, I can't see why someone would suggest concentration practice as the cause of your experience as it's a classic example of either 3rd or 6th ñana and is actually a good thing as it indicates progress. Concentration practice can lead to unusual experiences, but they're not generally unpleasant; working with concentration can perturb memories of difficult experiences from the past though, and this could well be something to do with it, but I still, based on what you've said, can't think why you received that response.

It'd be quite funny if I'd been one of the people who'd said it though...


I'll post something on this in the future, but I don't want to hijack the OP's thread so I'll keep it meditation related for the moment.

Cheers!

Thank you everyone for the replies, I'm really enjoying reading what you all have to say. I've been busy, but I'll add my two cents to the discussion when I have some time.
Universe Cannon - thank you for the links. I'm doing a research paper on effects of meditation in the brain and these studies are very helpful I'll post my paper here when its done

Non Dua Natura, you're not hijacking my thread, it's everybody's thread! Talk about whateva you want!

I think meditation can easily lead one to types of thought and activities that "normal" people would consider "abnormal". It's all a matter of perspective I think.

I finished a research paper I was writing on the effects of meditation on the mind and body and thought id share it here. I got really rushed so its not nearly as good as i wanted to be, but its still packed full of information. as a warning, I'm not a good writer, i just want to share the info. Since i got rushed there may be some misinformation, but you can check the works cited to see the studies for yourself. i've also attached a .doc file for anyone that would like to read a cleaner, more organized version

P.S. Universe Canon - I just read through the thread and saw you're writing a paper on this too! I'd love to read it when you're done if you wouldn't mine sharing I really slacked on mine and would love to read a good one

here it is:

In the modern industrialized world, many things are different about life than they were one thousand years ago: diseases are treated with medication, new mental illnesses are being defined and everyday life is packed with stress. Most people to overcome these problems today watch TV, exercise, use drugs, speak with therapists or overcome them by other means. Some people, however, are reverting back to old practices that some religions use to treat these problems. The practices I am speaking of are different forms of meditation. Meditation used to be something that was only used to attain “enlightenment,” or “universal knowledge of all things.” Recently, however, people in the modern world have adopted meditation for its relaxing, stress-reducing properties. Over the years, meditation has also caught the eye of the scientific community and many studies have been and are being conducted on it. Scientists are particularly interested in what meditation does to the brain and how it can be used to treat both psychological and physiological diseases. Meditation is proving to be an interesting topic and new information is being frequently uncovered about it. In this paper, I will discuss the effects of meditation on both the mind and body and evidence for how it may improve diseases.
Meditation has been shown to affect the brain in many ways. One way meditation can affect the brain is induce neuroplasticity. Neuroplasticity is described as the way neurons connect with more synapses, which in turn creates more “pathways” throughout the brain. In simpler terms, it is almost like “rewiring” the brain (Neuroplasticity). Learning usually induces Neuroplasticity, so it is interesting that meditation may induce it as well. Because meditation has been shown to induce neuroplasticity, it may also slow the aging process of the brain. One study conducted at The University of California used fMRI to scan brains of experienced meditators and nonmeditators. The results showed that the meditators had increased gyrification in the brain (Hanc). Gyrification is “a term that describes the folding of the cerebral cortex, the outermost part of the brain.” The more folding that occurs in the cerebral cortex, the larger the surface area of the brain (Wen). Gyrification is important because it may play a role in neural processing. It is interesting to note that Albert Einstein’s brain shows more gyrification than the average human (Florida State University). In another study conducted by Sara Lazar, a psychologist at Harvard Medical School, experienced meditators showed more density in “areas of the cortex associated with attention and sensory processing.” Because these areas of the brain grew, this study may also suggest that meditation can slow the aging process of the brain (Bhattacharjee). Studies have also shown that regular meditators demonstrate increased gray and white matter throughout the brain. “Grey matter is involved with information processing and white matter is the ‘wiring’ of the communication network throughout the brain.” This particular study also suggests that meditation may slow the effects of aging on the brain (Fan 2).
Meditation improves the mind not only by neuroplasticity, but by other methods as well. There are some studies suggesting that meditation may improve memory. In a study published in the journal, Emotion, researchers found that stressed military service members that meditated experienced an increase in working memory (The Neuroscience of Meditation 1). “[Working memory] is essential for problem solving [and] the execution of complex cognitive tasks” (Memory). To further prove this finding, a study of 15 older adults with memory problems shows that “daily 12-minute meditation sessions over a period of eight weeks can improve overall memory function.” The patients involved in the study also experienced increased blood flow to areas of the brain involved in memory (The Neuroscience of Meditation 1). Other than memory, meditation has also been shown to improve attention. In one study published in Conscious Cognition, people who meditated performed significantly better on measures of attention than people who did not meditate (The Neuroscience of Meditation 7). In a similar study, students practicing meditation “showed greater improvement in conflict scores on the Attention Network Test, higher vigor on the Profile of Mood States scale and showed lower anxiety, depression, anger, and fatigue” (Ming).
As well as boost memory and attention, meditation may also treat mental disorders and has proven to relieve stress. According to an article published in The Archives of General Psychiatry, a therapeutic approach to meditation called Mindfulness-Based Cognitive Therapy (MBCT) proved to “offer protection again relapse/recurrence [of depression] on a par with that of maintenance antidepressant pharmacotherapy” (Young 75). To further prove this finding, another study was published in the Journal of Consulting and Clinical Psychology comparing the relapse rate of depression in diagnosed people who practiced MBCT with people who didn’t meditate at all. The relapse rate of people who practiced MBCT was 34% while the control group had a 66% relapse rate (Gullie). Meditation increases serotonin levels so this may be a contributing factor in the study (Garden 22). In another form of therapeutic meditation called Compassion-Based Cognitive Therapy (CBCT), s study conducted at Emory found that both healthy adults and children in foster care that practiced CBCT showed “reduced emotion distress and more resilience in response to stress” (Compassion Meditation). Meditation relieves stress by reducing the amount of cortisol in the body. Cortisol is a hormone released during times of stress and can interfere with neurotransmitters and damage neurons by breaking down the myelin layer that protects the cell. Cortisol can also weaken the immune system and age the brain and body faster (McQuillan).
Another thing meditation has been shown to do is change mood and behavior. In studies, people who meditate scanned under fMRI have shown less activity in the brain associated with emotions such as “anger, depression and anxiety” and more activity in the brain associated with emotions such as “buoyancy, optimism and confidence” (Gross). In another study published by Social Cognitive and Affective Neuroscience, meditators practicing CBCT were shown to have an increased ability to read facial expressions of other people. Meditators also showed “increased activity in the inferior frontal gyrus and dorsomedial prefontal cortex, areas in the brain associated with empathy” (Compassion Meditation).
In some people, incorrect practice of meditation has caused negative effects. For example, there have been reports of people attending meditation retreats and experiencing psychosis shortly after. Meditation practitioners explain that some people during meditation retreats “go through very traumatic experiences and require round the clock support, the use of strong drugs or even hospitalization” (Garden 25). There have also been reports of people committing suicide shortly after retreats (Garden 21). A scientific cause for these occurrences has not been stated, but meditation practitioners speculate that these people have jumped into “deep” forms of meditation too fast. They say that one needs to start meditating with simple methods of meditation first and then work their way up to more “deep” forms. Because there is no known answer why meditation causes these negative reactions, it opens up a big gate for future researchers.
One of the most interesting aspects of meditation is its ability to change brain waves. In a study published in Journal of Alternative and Complementary Medicine, people who meditate showed differing brain waves than people who do not meditate. The researchers found that people show more theta, alpha, and gamma rays during meditation. Theta waves are associated with “relaxed attention and alertness.” Alpha waves are an indication of “wakeful rest in which the brain relaxes.” Delta waves are especially intriguing and are involved with “awareness, concentration and consciousness.” Experienced meditators show a lot of gamma ray activity even when not meditating. Because gamma ways are associated with consciousness, meditation could lead to a greater level of consciousness (The Neuroscience of Meditation 7).
As well as meditation affecting the brain, it has also been shown to affect the body. There are studies showing that meditation may benefit the cardiovascular system. For example, in a study presented to the American Heart Association, meditators and nonmeditators with coronary artery disease were compared. 200 patients were studied in total and of the 100 people that meditated, 20 had heart attacks compared to the control group who had 32. As well as this, the meditators also remained disease free longer and reduced their systolic blood pressure (Hanc).
Meditation may also benefit the immune system. Meditators were compared to a control group and the people that meditated showed a stronger immune reaction to the flu vaccine (Gross). Cortisol, caused by stress, weakens the immune system. Because meditation lowers the amount of cortisol, it protects the immune system from the damaging hormone.
Another way meditation may benefit the body is by improving chronic pain. In one study, patients who attended a 10-week mindfulness meditation program reported “statistically significant progress towards greater energy, less pain and improved coping” (Patil). In another study, experienced meditators were exposed to painful heat while being scanned by MRI. All participants reported pain, but the meditators reported less pain than the control group. “According to the authors, the study suggests it may be possible to reduce pain by ‘turning off’ certain areas of the brain during meditation” (The Zen of Pain). In a similar study, experienced meditators were exposed to painful laser zaps and scanned by MRI. Meditators reported less pain and showed more activity in an area of the brain associated with controlling attention and thought processes. The study suggests that meditators were focusing more on the present moment rather than pain. This indicates that meditation reduces the emotional response to pain (Rx For Pain).
What once started out as a way to achieve enlightenment is now being used for stress-reduction, treatment of mental and physiological disorders and spiritual involvement. Without fail, meditation has proved that it affects the mind and body in many ways. Whether one is a Buddhist monk or a cashier working at a grocery store, people who correctly practice meditation show the same positive effects throughout the mind and body. Although there are rare cases of psychosis from meditation, the majority of people who practice correctly benefit from it and these strange cases also make for good investigation. Perhaps one day one will hear their doctor recommend meditation to them.



Works Cited:

Barinaga, Marcia. "Studying the well-trained mind: Buddhist monks and Western scientists are comparing notes on how the mind works and collaborating to test insights gleaned from meditation." Science 302.5642 (2003): 44+. Gale Opposing Viewpoints In Context. Web. 24 Nov. 2012.

Bhattacharjee, Yudhijit. "Neuroscientists welcome Dalai Lama with mostly open arms." Science 310.5751 (2005): 1104. Gale Opposing Viewpoints In Context. Web. 24 Nov. 2012.

"Compassion meditation may boost neural basis of empathy, Emory study finds." Mental Health Weekly Digest 15 Oct. 2012: 21. Gale Opposing Viewpoints In Context. Web. 24 Nov. 2012.

Fan, Ming, et al. "Mechanisms of white matter changes induced by meditation." Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States 109.26 (2012): 10570+. Expanded Academic ASAP. Web. 24 Nov. 2012.

Fan, Ming, et al. "Short-term meditation training improves attention and self-regulation." Proceedings of the National Academy of Sciences of the United States 104.43 (2007): 17152+. Expanded Academic ASAP. Web. 24 Nov. 2012.

Florida State University. "Uncommon features of Einstein's brain might explain his remarkable cognitive abilities." ScienceDaily, 15 Nov. 2012. Web. 3 Dec. 2012.

Gross, Amy. "Your Brain on Happiness." Newsweek 16 Jan. 2012: 35. Gale Opposing Viewpoints In Context. Web. 24 Nov. 2012.

Gulli, Cathy. "It's not just for monks: a new therapy uses meditation to prevent depression relapse." Maclean's 26 May 2008: 56+. Gale Opposing Viewpoints In Context. Web. 24 Nov. 2012.

Hanc, John. "In Sitting Still, A Bench Press For the Brain." New York Times 10 May 2012: F6(L). Gale Opposing Viewpoints In Context. Web. 24 Nov. 2012

McQuillan, Susan. "Sustain Your Brain." Natural Health 39.6 (2009): 54-59. Academic Search Premier. Web. 4 Dec. 2012.

"Memory." Encyclopædia Britannica. Encyclopædia Britannica Online Academic Edition. Encyclopædia Britannica Inc., 2012. Web. 03 Dec. 2012.
"neuroplasticity." Encyclopædia Britannica. Encyclopædia Britannica Online Academic Edition. Encyclopædia Britannica Inc., 2012. Web. 03 Dec. 2012.
"The neuroscience of meditation: spending time consciously directing awareness to present-moment experience can change the brain's activities and structure." Mind, Mood & Memory 6.6 (2010): 1+. Expanded Academic ASAP. Web. 4 Dec. 2012.

Patil, Sangram. "Effectiveness of mindfulness meditation (Vipassana) in the management of chronic low back pain." Indian Journal of Anaesthesia 53.2 (2009): 158. Expanded Academic ASAP. Web. 4 Dec. 2012.

"Rx for pain." Globe & Mail [Toronto, Canada] 26 Nov. 2012: A14. Gale Opposing Viewpoints In Context. Web. 4 Dec. 2012.

Wen Wei, et al. "Cortical Gyrification And Sulcal Spans In Early Stage Alzheimer's Disease." Plos ONE 7.2 (2012): 1-5. Academic Search Premier. Web. 3 Dec. 2012.

Young, Simon N. "Biologic effects of mindfulness meditation: growing insights into neurobiologic aspects of the prevention of depression." Journal of Psychiatry and Neuroscience 36.2 (2011): 75+. Expanded Academic ASAP. Web. 24 Nov. 2012.

"The Zen of pain." Diabetes Forecast Mar. 2011: 24. Expanded Academic ASAP. Web. 4 Dec. 2012.

Thanks for your input guys, this is fascinating, and i've always found it difficult to meditate, except for during exercise. Here's what i'd like to contribute having read so far:

Meditation was in the past precticed in seclusion, and usually in a safe environment protected from outside dangers. Then again it wasn't practiced to get away from the 'stresses of society', but as a path in itself to enlightenment. I think that problems occur when people try and 'fit it in' to their busy working lives to destress. It doesn't really mix, and they might as well master the stresses of a busy working life with improving their physical fitness, and social skills than do meditation, i reckon.

I think it's better that once they've got enough financial security, THEN they can devote the time, energy, and sacrifice required to meditate if they choose. And it is always gonna be a sacrifice, a path to be serious about, because the social and material world is also attractive and also meaningful as long as one does not become overly materialistic. Some would say it's our duty to 'be our best', and it would be a shame to not have a nice life if it was offered, and it is our path in this life, etc, etc.

Perhaps a lot of the harm comes from people not realising that to properly commit to meditation means a sacrifice that they might just find too big a jump, and then to also realise the things they will need to give up to become perfect meditators?

In India, there's a lot of poverty, so it's not really a big decision for people to choose a simple life, especially if they live in a poor area. In fact to meditate has too much going for it over there. Look at Buddha, he already had his fair share of the 'rich life' with the world at his feet, so it was probably easier for him to leave such a life for another one rather than your regular joe who is stuck in the middle of poverty and riches. The mind becomes like a donkey not knowing which pile of hay to eat from, it goes mad, never deciding. Is this the dilemma that makes meditation more of a difficult choice for Westerners?

It's tough for us. We need to make a sacrifice, because to make a success in Society means being devoted to working and being good at your job to be able to earn a crust. I don't think that meditation fits in with that way of being. Is this why it can screw up peoples minds and make them question the life they live?

cheers universecannon i appreciate it.

I usually prefer the word "sitting" to "meditation", mainly because the latter tends to carry with it mystical connotations, and I feel that "sitting" is a more descriptive word in terms of what I am really doing whan I am doing it anyway.

I can't really say that I recognize what the article is proclaiming. I think we should be cautious about people thinking that just sitting there, being ourselves, could be a "bad" thing.



Ah, yes, perhaps when practicing awareness we start to see that being in "permanent crisis mode" really isn't necessary...

I think the Buddha once said something like, "if you have been carrying gems and diamonds for all your life it isn't hard to drop them when you discover that they are only stones." I find that very insightful! Seems like more and more people (I project) are starting to wake up to the fact that what they have been taking as gems for all their lives may in fact turn out to be stones... I can understand that that could be very uncomfortable. I mean, it could be difficult to start waking up to the fact that one has been fooling him/herself for a very long time!



And we can only guess where this percieved need to be a perfect meditator is coming from! Personally, I like breaking my commitment to meditation, that means I can re-commit! And observe the process of commitment yet again and bringing awareness into that process.

This is probably the most informative book on meditation I have ever read. Including a URL for your convenience! http://www.amazon.com/Th...475463#reader_0961475463

Hi Kensho!

I guess you're saying that because you can't fully commit due to your other responsabilities?..Regardless, you have shown that you are a happy to be flexible person who appreciates the awareness of the goodies that recommitment provide. However, only your 'buddha nature' knows if you're doing right or wrong, or then again we could analize or meditate on that!

Yeah, I side with personal experience and the wisdom of thousands of years of tradition across multiple cultures about the effects of meditation. People always find ways to misuse a tool. That's what meditation is, after all. And maybe it can be an attitude of sorts too when you try and 'meditate' on everything you do during the day. But I think the fact that people are having negative side-effects means some people don't know what they should be doing. 'Meditation' is a good example of a modern word that has taken on false connotations (almost as bad as the word psychedelic). Some assume meditation is a mystical other-world of consciousness that special people enter, where they have no thoughts or feelings and can transcend reality. That's the Hollywood form of it. Even the Dalai Lama says meditation for him is work. He's not doing anything radically different than the beginner, it's just that he's more mentally 'fit' in this regard. He can meditate more effectively and for longer than most - that's more or less the difference. Meditation is simple, at least for beginners and even some more advanced practitioners. It's just mindfulness, serenity, and concentration. If you are becoming psychotic from meditation, then you aren't meditating. Instead, you're probably forcing yourself to focus very hard on 'trying to meditate' for too long and too often. There's no way you could have issues just sitting down once or twice a day to just be still and focus on breathing.

Perhaps the article (or the thread) might have been more accurately called, "The negative effects of extreme forms of meditation"

What do you mean when you say "fully commit"?

You might be right.

That is what I thought...until I started having issues. Psychosis? Absolutely not. But one hour of breath watching a day apparently was enough to produce some unsettling states in my case. This is in no way to be taken as a criticism of meditation. I've resumed my practice and increased my intensity since encountering these issues. But it is worth knowing that such difficult experiences ARE possible with even a moderate amount of meditation.

eH

If you don't mind sharing, what kind of "unsettling states" did you experience? And any advice on how to avoid them?

Hi eljapoppo,

My earlier posts in this thread contain brief descriptions of my experiences and well as links to resources to deal with unusual states. I'm not sure one can avoid some of these experiences but one can cope with them in better or worse ways. This is very similar to dealing with difficult entheogenic experiences. Anyway, I've attached the book "Mastering the Core Teachings of the Buddha" as it has various sections discussing difficult experiences. It also has a LOT more that meditators may find useful.

eH

Based on our other conversations, it's worth remembering that you'd also had previous practice with other techniques which would almost certainly have contributed in some way. Momentum is a big part in making the push into the territory you're observing just now, but someone who just sits and does basic breath counting isn't likely to encounter any major problems.


This, I agree with. There are so many idiosyncrasies involved in each persons journey but there does appear to be a general progression, sometimes subtle and sometimes not, once one hits a certain stage in their development.

Is this the article? Apparently I don't have the rights to download the pdf.

Can Meditation Be Bad for You?
http://www.thehumanist.o...humanist/MaryGarden.html

KFD-er, BTW

Okay, that IS the article. I noticed a couple of people referred to the author as male, but it's a woman named Mary, and there's even a picture of her. A little bias, yes?

While there are some valid points to be made, overall the article struck me as something not terribly far from knee jerk skepticism, you can find a lot of the same factoids referenced on fundamentalist websites (i.e. don't go to the dark side!). I find it both amusing and troubling that skeptics can be as dogmatic as believers.

I think by now we would have heard if there were any real problems from say, MBSR, the secular version of mindfulness from Kabat-Zinn. That has been practiced by a huge sample of people with solid research.

But, I think in intense retreat situations like Goenka (which are very intensive, very controlling and somewhat cult-like), with perhaps some troubled individuals overly represented in that population, you isolate socially, you start to really look at bare experience, you start to destabilize, maybe you <jargon> cross the A&P, enter the dukka nanas, yeah, stuff can happen.

And the research is very preliminary, but the stuff about the default mode network shows similar effects in the brain between psilocybin and meditation. Personally, I find it takes MUCH less psilocybin after meditating a few years. The mind is already inclined in that direction, so to speak.

A decent place for current meditation research:
http://www.scoop.it/t/contemplative-science

I've been meditating irregularly for the past year and feel that it has done me an abundance of good. I don't meditate every day, although I do try, but I also try to regulate everything that I do with moderation. Everything from consumerism to deep religious studies could potentially catapult someone into a manic state. There's people who shop when they have no money, start suicide cults to be with their gods, and even build shelters to protect themselves from the apocalypse.

On a side note, the author mentions feeling superior to those who didn't meditate when she did which makes me think that she was expecting too much from meditation. I think that she felt a little scammed when she didn't receive the enlightenment she was looking for which had a large influence on her article. I do appreciate her warnings, but as a few had mentioned above, its a pretty biased opinion on meditation.