Me too, me too. It's just that I don't believe one's level of moral development can be objectively assessed by simply looking at their dietary choices. Personally, I'm not a big meat eater, but between eating meat and obsessing over whether one has had enough servings of this or that exotic fruit to cover their recommended daily intake of some obscure nutrient, I find the former to be a more reasonable approach.

Welcome to the Nexus, BabyFat.
I guess I just tend to assume that most members here are guys, although I really have no idea if that is indeed the case ))

I wasn't trying to judge anybodies morals or state my own based upon my diet... I don't eat many exotic fruits and I seem to be lacking nutrients lately- it seems to help me to 'escape' better when I am not eating in a way that I think might harm the environment or unnecessarily massively kill livestock for meat production. I feel like I should start supplementing - I am glad to know that this forum topic is relatively common here. Thanks for the welcome

I'd be interested to see where this information is taken from. A couple of years ago I found out my cholesterol was too high, and all of the research and guidance I read was quite different to what you say here.

My understanding is that our bodies do not readily absorb cholesterol, good or bad, from the food we eat and the majority of cholesterol in our blood is produced by our own bodies. This is why the advice on eggs changed - even though they are high in cholesterol, research showed that eating cholesterol does not significantly affect cholesterol levels. Also, I do not think it is true that animal products do not contain LDL - actually cholesterol, good and bad, is only found in animal products. non-animal products contain none of either type.

Rather, as I understand it, the body produces its own cholesterol. Simplistically, saturated fats produce bad cholesterol, whereas unsaturated fats produce good cholesterol. Moreover good cholesterol "fights" bad cholesterol. Therefore the best things to eat for a healthy cholesterol level are products which have a high ratio of unsaturated fats to saturated fats e.g. nuts and avocado. The worst things to eat include fatty meats and cheese.

I accept that there may be concerns about a vegan diet, but I don't think cholesterol is one of them. In fact, all of the research I came across show that vegans on average have significantly lower levels of LDL than vegetarians, who in turn have significantly lower levels than meat eaters.

With regards to the research link you posted, this seems to relate to endurance athletes who have very different dietary requirements and metabolisms to us mortals, and I think it could be dangerous to use this as a basis for making dietary choices if not an endurance athlete.

I'm not an expert in any of this so I could be wrong, but when I went back to my doctor after a few months of following this guidance he said my cholesterol ratio was the lowest he had seen for a long time.

Anyway, love to all

HPxx

I am wondering if any vegans or past vegans have experienced finger spasms -frequent muscle spasms?

My pinky and my forefinger constantly twitch- it is rather annoying- I am wondering if it is possibly related to my diet...

Have often considered becoming a vegan, or at the very least a vegetarian. I could quite happily live without meat for the rest of my life, be happy for it, have the reasons of both respect for earth's creatures as well as my belief in reincarnation being enforced. My only problem is my family are big meat-eaters, which can hinder me. Of course there's nothing wrong with being liberal about it all; accepting meat when visiting someone for a meal who doesn't know. But yeah, I could happily live without meat, and often do whenever I'm alone.

Milk for my tea? Now that's a different story

Excuse the self-indulgent post. XD

Don't let your meat eating family control what you do - dietary or otherwise

Oh yeah I don't; I do enjoy meat also, but I'm too humble to inconvenience others. Like I said, I'm fine with being liberal. Perhaps when more freedom comes to me

I guess you could say currently my stance is based on the circumstance. Perhaps strange, I know.

Seeing we are just discussing this in the chat, here is a great link/ste for vegans.

http://rawfoodsos.com/for-vegans/

The practice of veganism is the practice of ahimsa, a central principle of non-harming originating out of Eastern life-philosophies such as Buddhism, Hinduism, and Jainism.

To say that 'oh there is government-funded research showing animal protein is healthy for the body' is such a lie and an illusion. Our bodies are designed to consume plants. The food issue is about consent.

Is the animal giving people who consume animal products the right to slaughter the animal or steal her milk?

Among many other similar lessons, Ayahuasca and the dimethyltryptamine experience teaches the seeker to respect the Earth and save the planet. If a person is not getting this lesson from the experience, the person is not paying attention.

Slaughtering animals and stealing milk from another species is not respecting the Earth. Ahimsa and the practice of 'veganism' is the practice of minimalizing harm and showing compassion for all beings. This means showing compassion to people who choose to kill and eat animals, even though it is unnecessary. Ahimsa or non-harming or loving-kindness means showing compassion to all forms of sentient life. Namaste. ॐ

The problem with that^ is that it is animal-centric. I don't wish to really have a discussion about it however..I was vegan for a long enough time in the past to understand it and I know that I pushed it on other people at the time and felt my path was better than others, and that I was being more respectful etc. Realizing how misguided some of those beliefs were was humbling I guess.

All those things you mentioned, you do to plants as a vegan. I see this viewpoint as animal-centric.

Even the yogi's who follow a vegetarian path for karmic reasons, are not vegan and comsume dairy. When you talk about people "stealing" milk etc, it is a fallacy that appeals to emotion. You can raise a cow or goat ethically, freerange and it can provide enough milk for you without depleting it. Factory farming is the real problem. I could say that you steal the seed bearing fruits from plants, you steal the nectar, you murder them and eat they're roots etc...of course vegans then say that plants don't have nervous system and cant feel pain. It's an animal-centric point of view. More and more studies are showing that plants respond to stress just as animals do.

Never feel so self important that you think you are out of this loop. You aren't. If you believe you are, you are building yourself up to fall at some point, and see where you really fit in in this world.

You don't have this life without death. Accept it, be thankful for the life you have and never forget this.

I think the Fruit wants to be eaten. It evolved over million of years to be tasty. An Apple has a bright red color to be seen easily. It could also evolve to be poisonous and defend its being at any cost. Animals eat plants and give their shit back to earth as nutrition for them. It's all a big circle we humans do not understand.
An animal never gives up it's life voluntarily. You have to steal it from them, wich makes you a Thief. To pick a Fruit is a different act. It's given to you by nature.
The human has the choice and why should he kill if he doesn't need to. Killing yields bad emotions, justification, ignorance.
Tribe-like cultures like the Indians love the Animals they kill and live in a symbiosis with them.
I think killing led to the hell we live in. It's the not valueing of animals lives that makes us not value our own.

The thing is we see ourselves higher in evolution or intelligence as the animal. We have the right to do with them as we see fit. The truth is we are the same as the animal and what we do to the animal we do to ourselves.

I went hardcore vegan for a year, starting in 2012. I learned a lot from that experiment.. I felt strongly about the killing of animals (still do, but not in the same way), I pushed my ideas on people like my life depended on it, and thought I was on such a higher plane of existence than everyone else. Well, guess what... I became weak and nutrient deficient, mostly due to not eating enough & the fact that I did not prepare my body for the sudden change.

After realizing that I am skinnier than a twig, and that I have half the strength as I used to have, I decided to change things up. Now, I am not vegan now, but extremely health conscious. I eat eggs almost every morning, chicken most nights, cheese, cream cheese, pasta, bread, tuna, ham etc... The only difference is that these items are purchased from local vendors, and are of the highest qualities that I can find. I still eat kale, spinach, fruit, broccoli etc lol, but not in such an obsessive manner. I have gained back my weight and since I started working out, I have gained a large amount of muscle. I just feel so much better.

Veganism is DEFINITELY a solution for many people if done correctly.

"I think the Fruit wants to be eaten. It evolved over million of years to be tasty. An Apple has a bright red color to be seen easily. It could also evolve to be poisonous and defend its being at any cost. Animals eat plants and give their shit back to earth as nutrition for them. It's all a big circle we humans do not understand."

That sounds great, until you think about it a little more. Many animals don't really eat any plants, and are rather carnivoires..they would not survive without eating other animals..on a micro level it is all micro-organisms feeding on other micro-organisms..insects feeding on other insects...to say you think the fruit wants to be eaten cus it's red and loaded with sugar but animals don't and then say it is a big circle we dont understand does not entirely make sense. To really understand it is to accept the reality of it, and then live in that reality in a respectful manner.

A note on the apple.. wild apples were tiny little sour things..like sour berries originally. They were bread out via hybridization by humans to be the big red sweet things you find today that are usually from grafted trees.

"An animal never gives up it's life voluntarily. You have to steal it from them, wich makes you a Thief. To pick a Fruit is a different act. It's given to you by nature."

So, any animal that has not naturally evolved to be vegan is a thief?

Dog eats dog.

The fruits that we and countless animals eat (so long as they haven't been hybridized out of even producing seeds) quite literally were designed by evolution to be eaten via the plants relationship with things that ate it's fruits. It is often a vital part of the plants overall life cycle and long term survival, and a vital food for the animal as well.

Sure, you could say in a larger sense that on some limited level animals were designed by evolution to be eaten by other animals, but the degree to which this is overall "true" for all animals is severely limited and far more extreme in fruit. Fruit is a dispersal mechanism for the next generation (seeds) and is a symbiotic organ that attracts with it's flavonoid colors and provides nutrients to animals that will aid in this dispersal. This way seeds spread throughout the forest, insuring the plants survival - often depositing them in some prime animal fertilizer as a plus. On a similarly organismic and realistic level with animals, I don't help animals fulfill their evolution-designed role by eating them in anything remotely near the same way that. I don't see animals getting eaten as inherently bad though like some...that just ignores nature.

Anyways, I don't really get into the whole vegan/veggie debate much. I've always avoided all of these dietary labels people seem to crowd around because they are unrealistic umbrella terms used to categorize a wide variety of diets and the myriad thinking that goes along with them, not to mention they hold a lot of connotations and invoke preconceptions in people. I could never relate with people who think they are better than others because of the way they eat.

I've eaten mostly raw fruits, plants, and seeds for 4 or 5 years now. I don't claim that the way I eat is the absolute best diet for everyone, it just works amazing for me so far. I've seen it work tremendously for a lot of people, but it can be harder for some to switch to and maintain this diet than others (surprise: as with any diet), and this depends on a ton of interconnected factors. The most frequent issues though seem to be that people don't make sure they are getting the most important nutrients they need, or just aren't eating enough and exercising (and then are wondering why they lost so much weight). There are legit body builders who eat this way, although I wouldn't say that is as easy a path compared with other diets.

And from what I've seen generally, in my opinion many self proclaimed vegans and vegetarians still eat pretty unhealthy diets.

Factory farming and junk/processed food is the main problem, and environmentally our over-eating of meat is having huge consequences. A meat-based food system requires far more energy, land, and water; there has been many solid studies on this from what I've seen. If people want to hunt their own animals or raise some themselves, that's different and I can definitely respect that though.

Regarding the whole suffering/pain thing...I think that other plants probably have some kind of awareness, but it's almost impossible for us to conceive in relation to our own. I take issue with the assumption that it is so similar to a cows that the level of suffering it undergoes is the same when I break a piece off and eat it. In my opinion they aren't very comparable at all in that regard. Not to mention most plants will keep living after you've eaten some of it.

I didn't get into this diet because of all that though to be honest. I just discovered solid reasoning for it working well and then found it works better for me than anything else I've tried. The exact reasoning behind it for me is a whole other can of worms.

Or maybe, animals eating the fruit and spreading its seed after eating/discarding it.
Not everyone thinks fruit is tasty. I'm a big fan myself, and there are dozens that I'd rather not eat.

Last time I went to the supermarket, there were more colors of apple than just red; At any rate, most fruit is not red. And even so, apples wouldn't be red so that they can be seen easily. Considering the 'carry my seed, monkey' hypothesis, and assuming indeed that primates would be more drawn to the color red, then it would be the primates-induced selection that over time would make red apples become more common, and not the other way around.

The 'carry my seed, monkey' hypothesis is exactly what i meant. A fruit has no intention of it's own but it does carry the monkeys preference. Then again the monkey learned to climb just to get that fruit...
In the end both live in symbiosis and are carefully adjusted to one another. Both profit.

The hunter and the prey on the other hand counter-evolve so to speak. One profits.

I think it's less energy-consuming to just sit and let oneself be caressed by nature than to fight it. As a species.

I believe eating meat is bad energy but i have a hard time describing it.

"The hunter and the prey on the other hand counter-evolve so to speak. One profits"

That is an extremely linear and simplistic take on what is actually going on within intact and biologically dynamic ecosystems.