Humans tend to get really wrapped up with their shiny new toys, and I'd say that you are right in that most people are using technology as a way of pissing away time and isolating themselves. But creative boundaries are being expanded exponentially in the process. This is creative evolution as opposed to cultural evolution. Culture is indeed not our friend, but creativity may in fact be our salvation.

Rousseau's comment is interesting, but perhaps antiquated. It is not my objective to be able to survive a bare-hand duel with an Australiopithecene, but to be able to make art that wasn't possible a generation ago. Whether or not you think this is a worthwhile pretense for the existence of these technologies is really just an opinion. There is a lot wrong with the human situation, and the technology thing is a symptom, not a cause. A tool is just a tool.

^I agree that the (only) problem with technology is when it serves as a distraction from being human, and from being grounded. But technology itself is...as human as it gets--people have been consumed by the idea of technology since the discovery of fire. We shouldn't forget that shaping and controlling the universe is one aspect of embracing the universe. It would in fact be easy to see it as that is really our PURPOSE--and that it is expansive, and reaching OUT to the universe, rather than focusing inside ourselves and ignoring the universe (although, of course, there is NO ESCAPE from the universe--inside, outside, everywhere).

And I also agree that creativity may be....the really ONE WHOLLY SPECIAL THING ABOUT US. It's our magic.

@fairbanks - I get the quotes and their points, and I remember having a monumental quarrel online once because I brought up precisely that McKenna bit... but I think the only gap between your points and what I tried to express before (poorly, using the annoying piece of tool a cellphone can be) has to do with semantics and subsets of categories.

Tools are not only replacements that dumb us down, relegating our innate skills to a second level. Tools also empower us, and not even the most solid criticism against modern technology abuse can seriously dispute that. And even if we want to quote Rousseau and his romancing of the wild childs, or the closest equivalent in our current sane and lucid debunking of modern colonial superiority complex, the machete, the mortar and pestle and the cooking pot are still tools for a vegetalista. We might agree that in our society there is a 10% of use and a 90% of abuse if you want, but it's still a matter of degree, and the tool we are looking at.

And I see cultural evolution as something much older, much broader than the contemporary trap constructs McKenna rejects and warns us against. Cannot we talk about ancient culture, pagan culture, indigenous culture? I understand that cultural evolution works when our species has used knowledge and skills that, as far as we know (and unless junk DNA happens to be the storage room where Jung's collective unconscious hides, or something like that) have not been preserved in our genes, but in our collective consensual mind, transmitted by word. And collective consensual minds have not always been the shithole we often find ourselves in nowadays.

I guess we are in a much closer mind frame than you might think. I just try to make the best out of what we have. I still think that it makes sense to use and understand positively the byproducts of our society. We won't get rid of them, so we better learn to use them properly and take the chance to question our ethics and objectives while we do it.

Indeed, Vodsel, and I think this forum is a perfect example. How likely would it be that most of us could have conversations this mentally stimulating, without networking technology? I live in the woods, and would be existing in an intellectual backwater without my tech. Conversations of this level of quality can be part of personal evolution for its participants. The fact that 90% of people using networking technologies are mostly just wasting time... Well, I hate to say it, but that's just people for ya.

Vodsel! Awesome!

How can one bad mouth technology while using said technology?

Guymech, you brought up and awesome point. Technology is not inherently good or bad. The way people use/abuse it can be. My computer just sits rather indifferently across the room from me. It only takes on a negative standing when I get on and screw around looking at nothing, or a positive standing when I get on an learn things (which is actually most of the time, I'm proud to say).

Remember this:
Nothing is new under the sun.

If people from 100 or 1000 or 10,000 years ago could be brought to our time and assimilated, probably the exact same ratio would occur of laziness and stupidity to intellect and creativity. Peeps is peeps.

I just want to say, this site has some of the most stimulating conversations ever. EVER!

sniff sniff... I love you guys!

“It has become appallingly obvious that our technology has exceeded our humanity.” - Albert Einstein

"Our entire much-praised technological progress, and civilization generally, could be compared to an ax in the hand of a pathological criminal." - Albert Einstein

"Western society has accepted as unquestionable a technological imperative that is quite as arbitrary as the most primitive taboo: not merely the duty to foster invention and constantly to create technological novelties, but equally the duty to surrender to these novelties unconditionally, just because they are offered, without respect to their human consequences." - Lewis Mumford

I'm willing to bet, those quotes of Einstein are in relation to the atomic bomb.

Those are very good points, and I completely agree that we must decide what to pursue technologically with ethics and maturity.

Let me ask you this:

What was it that allowed the change in childhood mortality rates? As little as 100-150 years ago, not only was it common for children to die before the age of five, it was likely.

Do you want to go back to that world? A world of polio? Smallpox? Plague?

Into world where if you had five children, you'd probably buried 6?

This is just one small example of the merit of science and technology.
Technology is what has allowed us to survive. Yes, the human species has its problems. Hopefully we have enough time to solve them. If we don't, then we'll be merely another failed experiment of evolution. But technology is what will be our salvation, or destruction. We just have to decide which it is.

100-150 yrs ago? that was during the industrial revolution. western society was already in the heat of progress for techno-industrial civilization.



These are all diseases of civilization. There is no history of primitive peoples having polio, smallpox, or plague. In fact smallpox was non existent in primitive america until the europeans came over! Neither were measles, scarlet fever, typhoid, typhus, influenza, pertussis (whooping cough), tuberculosis, cholera, diphtheria, chickenpox, and sexually transmitted diseases until european colonization of the americas.

Go back to what world? We're still HERE, if you look at the third world in terms of polio, small pox, & plague that are rampant! & In the first world we've got more juvenile degenerative disease then ever before in history; go take a walk around your nearest childrens hospital. Also, with screen tech in particular we're seeing the catastrophic rise in psychological disorders, look at generation Y aka generation Rx.

Science and modern technology in terms of our survival is not necessary or even beneficial. IMO you cannot cure the problems created by modern technology with more modern technology, it's fighting fire with fire. It's a crutch/bandage that leads to worse problems. Children's vaccines are comparable to pesticides with our monoculture farming. We have to constantly make it stronger as viruses get stronger creating super-bugs. There's a reason live culture yogurt is so popular these days, we're remembering that there is good bacteria. We've become so sterile in civilization not realizing that the sterility itself was the source of the problem and making it all worse. Look back at primitive peoples, they didn't have to deal with close to a fraction of the medical non-sense that civilization (domestication) has created.

"If people from 100 or 1000 or 10,000 years ago could be brought to our time and assimilated, probably the exact same ratio would occur of laziness and stupidity to intellect and creativity. Peeps is peeps."

To be fair, there is enough scientific data to assume that we have undergone epigenetic degredation since we left a more or less hunter gatherer way of life and moved towards industrial agriculture. Some agriculture is present in pre-contact native american culture for instance but it was not the industrial style highly refined corn syrups, wheat and pasturized diary based diet that Weston Price observed back in the 30's(I think, could have been earlier).

This is a broad topic that takes some research to really understand. Really it would deserve it's own thread.

My point is we are not who we were 10,000 years ago..and that is not necessarily a good thing at all. People are not sopposed to have crooked jaws, rotten teeth, crooked teeth in need of braces or such week bone structure. The evidence all points to a state of degeneration due to epigenetic changes directly linked to diet and lifestyle.

I dont really care to get into pointless debates about laziness etc though..that is just too abstract to really have any relevane to the discussion.

deja vu jamie

like jamie said, yall gotta research into this stuff. you can make excuses for days on techno-industrial progress being beneficial but the research is against you.

here's a thread that took the same nose dive where jamie and I explain devolution and degeneration further. I apologize, I'm the only one to blame for these threads constantly turning into technology debates, so I'm going to refrain from posting on the nexus for awhile. It's gotten to the point where it's an energy drain and a waste of time & effort.

peace & prosperity to everybody. catch u on the phlipside.

Don't stop postin'!

I know! I have researched! I try my best to follow a paleo-diet, though cutting back a bit in the meat department.

Yes, those diseases are a result of technology. I do agree there is a huge physical degeneration of the human body. The strongest today pale in comparison to the average of 500 years ago. English archers regularly drew longbows of 160-200 pounds. All. damn. day.

I guess I see things differently. I see humanity traveling through space one day. It's the key to our indefinite survival. An asteroid could easily destroy humanity at any moment, not that it is likely, but it's possible. If we decide that humanity is not worth propagating, then I suppose that's a choice. But with the time dilation of relativity on our side, the known universe could be explored in as little as 56 years, ship time. Yes, I am correct on that.

My ideas begin with evolution of life. Boiled down, it's like this:
Life began for some reason, who knows why? But it did. It spent billions of years as not much more than single cell plant-like microbes. But then there was an explosion of diversity. Life forms created even more complex off-spring. Why was this? The natural universe tends toward disorder and chaos, not rise of complexity. The original problem was change itself. Cosmic rays coupled with random genetic copy error created mutant off-spring. This created a problem. The ones that didn't fit well with their surroundings perished. The ones better suited to live, did. But even the ones that lived were different, they encountered different problems that then needed to be solved, the environment changed constantly. The initial change created a feedback loop which lead to the explosion in diversity and exponential rise in complexity. Life works almost as if it were water in a bottle. Except, when the bottle is shaken it crystallizes into intricate complex structures, and the more it's shaken the more it grows in complexity.

Our technological rise is very much related to the feedback loop of change. Our technology creates new problems which then must be solved, leading to greater complexity. Within the next 3 decades we will be able to manipulate our genes. You had better believe this will happen. It will solve some problems, and create more. It will create a higher complexity. If our technology creates problems that are beyond its own ability to solve, then we will destroy ourselves. But the comfort zone is where we thrive, where life has always thrived: one step behind. It is in the very nature of the problematic process that the negatives outweigh the positives.

Paleolithic man was much better in some ways, but was also much simpler. He was a more primitive life form in a more primitive time. His body was strong because it needed to be, his mind was adequate for the task at hand. Agriculture created more problems, which our minds had to solve. Hunter/gatherers had no control over their destiny as a species, beyond the act of mere reproduction. We do.

We have been agreeing on what technology does, but our disagreement lies in where we see the future of our species.

I know this bad boy got long and off topic, but thanks for the engagement. I have greatly enjoyed it, thus far! Perhaps we do need to start a new thread.

A forum is a tricky place to explain complex concepts, and we do talk about pretty complex stuff that is and will be interpreted differently from each one of us depending on our experiences and attitude, knowledge and most of all age.

So yes, caution and patience are required.

If I may ( I don't know you well) you tend to pontificate more than discuss,, and that's not always constructive.
As for technology, it's here to stay, work with it. Fire was technology too. The wheel, the first spear...

Mr. P- like the "feedback loop of change" description, very apt. We can't separate our evolution from our technology- they are parts of the same process.

Fairbanks: relax! You should be enjoying these discussions, not being drained by them.

It would appear Fairbanks may have held to his word about taking a break, though I may be a but premature in thinking this...

I am not sure if my ideas are the consensus, but it came to me last time I was on a cactus trip, how evolution works to create greater complexity. It's amazing how much in our world is a product of, and dependent on evolution.

This thread I think is mildly off-topic, so I think I'll start my own thread on some of the things here.

As far as the OP goes,
The influx of trolls and idiotic ramblings probably just comes and goes in random waves. The leadership of this site seem to have it on lock!

Don't worry! The mind always notices the things that stick out. Negative things are often more memorable than positive things of equal magnitude. Often this leads people to think the world is going to hell. People have said this throughout time! People say, "Everyone is a bunch of idiots these days!" Or any where you go, that place somehow has the worst drivers.
While driving style does change from place to place, there's plenty of bad drivers everywhere. And people may seem dumb, but you ask any psychology student, teacher, professional etc. and they will tell you people are getting smarter. In the last century the average IQ has been re adjusted twice (at least) to compensate for an overall increase in intelligence. So I think someone who gets a 100 now is about a 120 of the early 1900s (not positive, been a while since I had a psychology class).

So don't worry! Things are seldom as bad as they seem!

I think the only reason why you feel like it's an energy drain is because it seems like you precondition yourself to defend your views before you even start reading someones post. It will obviously get very frustrating after a while if you constantly need to protect yourself like a warrior against opinion-attacks.

You seem like a really smart fella tho and I would hate to see you stop posting, I mean who would we debate these things with then? It would be a sad day if we all would just agree on everything, because you can't debate with people who agree with you..

I think it's just that alot of nexians can visualize the inevitability of technology, as something that's a part of evolution. Even if 99% of humans were destroyed by technology, that 1% of humans would start all over again and reach technology again eventually. And if it would be 100% destroyed, then it would just another "failed" experiment of evolution like Mr.Peabody mentioned. It's an extremely complex tool that has the potential for both creativity and destruction. It's up to US how to use it.

And tbh you were actually right in that other thread, it took me a long time to figure out what you meant about technology not being natural. You said it's like a disease or cancer, but even diseases and cancers are a part of nature. But then I looked up the definition of natural: "existing in or derived from nature; not made, caused by, or processed by humans" So you are correct, in that sense technology is not natural. I personally always defined the word natural to be more like "the laws of nature" which would encompass everything that happens in the universe, even the actions of humans. So it was just a matter of definition. Like most disagreements tend to be..

Yes Daeda! I forgot to say, the debate is important! I need Fairbanks for ideas, and he needs me. I can't debate as well by myself! I do, though. It's how I come up with ideas. I try and knock the parts out that don't make sense, craft it and mold it into something I think may stand up. Then, I bounce it of other folks. Their brains work differently and often see things I miss. If it falls apart, it's back to the drawing board.

This is how any intellectual pursuit is carried out. This is the cheese! I need folks to debate with, otherwise I'm just some dude with one train of silly ideas.

I'm not sure I agree about the idea of "epigenetic changes" on that scale...

...but there definitely ARE measured changes in only the last hundred years. One very well known one is sperm count.

Another is found here.

I find that site quite interesting--even though a quick glance gives the impression of..."another wacko site."

But it's not wacko because, in fact, his presentation of the physiology of breathing is correct, AND--it's only fair to note--a lot of Russian research in the past has been very illuminating, while being completely ignored by western researchers for mostly political reasons (Russian researchers did not publish in western journals because of the language and political barriers). The Russians did a lot of "seat of the pants," fundamental research, which, while not always hi-tech, was often very insightful and clever, and based on VERY sound principles.

Anyhow, I find the main bit of data presented on that site totally believable: People actually BREATHE MORE than people did 80-100 years ago, and the amount of breathing has gradually INCREASED over that time span. It's really quite interesting when you get into it.

And another thing is true: MANY asthma sufferers worldwide have been helped by the breathing insights and practices mentioned in that site--even though, yes, the site is badly put together and EASILY allows the impression that it's a bit wacky...

"As for technology, it's here to stay, work with it. Fire was technology too. The wheel, the first spear..."

Sure, "technology" comes from the term "technique"..and fire, the wheel and spears are all techniques humans have learned and benifited from..however that does not mean technology equates to evolution. Many people make this mistake. *Some* technology is useful..but to compare something like a fire to cook food or a wheel to move your vehicle to being bombarded all day with EMF etc makes little sense. You cant make blanket statements about technology and our evolution like many people do. It is just more complicated than that. Some of the technologies we have today in the modern world are just horrible for us and the environment..others not so much.

Humans like to impart some significance to everything..and I dont disagree that everything is significant..but I also dont believe in fairy tales about some great place our technology is taking us without serious reconciderations first about how we are actaully choosing to use such technologies.

all this talk of technology reminds me of an experience i had this summer with MDA at a festival. i ended up getting bad vibes and left the music. it was urging me to go back to my tent (amazingly ended up leading to me conversing with a girl and losing my virginity the next night). i was getting stream of consciousness type thoughts. one of them was something like, even though our technology helps us in many ways, our obsessions with it isn't good at all. it was more deep than that haha but i can't recall the exact thought.

really though it's a shame how we use our resources to make so much useless crap. think of all the oil we use that goes into crappy dollar store toys and other things on that level of uselessness. i have a txt file of a rant on my computer somewhere that goes into this i think too haha