James Lovelock, creator of the Gaia hypothesis in the 70s, is a member of The Cybernetics Society. He was a computer engineer that made probes for NASA Mars missions. Here's James Lovelock giving his definition of Gaia theory, "cybernetic system which seeks an optimal physical and chemical environment for life on this planet."



"Cybernetics is a science that concerns itself with how to control biological as well as non-biological entities (animals, humans, organizations, you name it).

Nearly everything to do with automata and computers is a byproduct of cybernetics. The Revolution in Military Affairs is 'cybernetics' applied to the military. The 'control grid' is cybernetics. Behavioral psychology as practiced by B.F. Skinner was 'cybernetics'."

Cybernetic views aka control, computer, mechanical, automata views of nature, are in bed with industrial globalization of our mother earth. Gaia theorists are a disgrace to the environmental movement, and laughed at by actual activists. They haven't done any direct action besides write pessimistic books and speak at conferences makin munaay. They are complacent with the corporatocracy and computer controlling vision of the world. There's a reason why they have such a large following on the internet from technophile new agers.

Gaia theory has nothing to do with spirituality, earth, or nature, it has everything to do with computer systems theory. James Lovelock dressed it up using the greek goddess Gaia and appropriating native spiritual ideals.

jamie

homeostasis is a cybernetic concept. homeo (similar) stasis (standing still). The earth is not a static system, it doesn't constantly stay the same in some machine fantasy of stabilization. It is constantly changing through causality, and everything is inter-connected through this. Homeostasis holds no anthropological history in native/indigenous cultures. The computer utopians champion this word 'homestatic system' b/c it describes what their computer and internet is. They love the fact that some computer engineer (James Lovelock) in the 1970s applied homeostatic system concept to the natural world so that they could feel like they were environmentally versed. Wrapped up in some greek mythology and native spirituality and you've got the makings of a religious cult. Perfect example from this thread, "Protect thyself from the Passover. Gaia doesn't like Them." -phyllode

fairbanks, if you can't see the inherent similarities between deep ecology and the Gaia hypothesis I don't really know what to tell you. As an environmental activist, I have spent extensive time reading on these subjects, the wiki was just the most convenient link to shoot off at a moment's notice.

Some noted ecologists whose works I am familiar with as a result of my engagement with ecological activism and who have ideologies that are similar to (or mesh with) Lovelock's include: Paul Shepard, Derrick Jensen, Judi Bari, John Zerzan and Joanna Macy. There are plenty more out there.

As to how you are treating indigenous groups as a singular...you keep stating how Lovelock is appropriating this or that, without naming a specific group from which he is appropriating "it". The implication of this is that all indigenous groups share the same set of values/sense of spirituality/epistemology vis a vis nature.

Finally, you present these correctly parsed roots but incorrect definition:


You do realize the human body (and all living entities) have a state of homeostasis, right? This is a biological concept. Homeostasis is not a static condition; it is the constant, dynamic striving for equilibrium.

..that, and maybe the full moon too..!

btw, fairbanks..you should listen to The Maxx - he channels the living spirit of Chuck Norris you know..
a force of one!..
.

Snozz wrote:

..Ave snozzleberry!

Did I say that they were dissimilar? NO, I said that posting a wikipedia article about deep ecology does not disprove the fact that the Gaian theory has a cybernetic systems theory origin. Of course the Gaian theory is clumped in with the other thousands of theories in the deep ecology movement. If you read my posts you'll see that I was also attacking ecology itself. If you look into ecological history the american view on nature has been mechanistic since it's inception and the word 'ecosystem'. Ecology has held this simple false notion up until recent years. Guardian article: How the 'ecosystem' myth has been used for sinister means



Besides Paul Shepard (who I don't remember being a fan of Gaia theory please source that), you did not list any true scholars of ecology, but man those are all some of my favorite authors/activists . Big difference between an ecologist and an environmental author/activist. None aside from Shepard in your listing went to school for such a thing, Judi Bari didn't graduate college, Derrick Jensen went to college for mining, Joanna Macy went to college for religious studies, Zerzan for history. These guys had wide ranges of politically correct and unsubstantiated opinions, they wouldn't be considered true scholars of ecology. Nonetheless, Derrick Jensen and John Zerzan have actually written critiques on James Lovelock and the Gaia hypothesis. If you actually look into contemporary ecology, nobody still holds this systems theory view, & current ecological historians (ie Peder Anker) have been writing about the infiltration of computers, cybernetics, and systems theory in ecology for awhile now. It sounds like you're more of an armchair activist if you're listing mainstream environmental authors to back up the false notion that contemporary ecology still believes in cybernetics systems theory view of nature.



YOU SIR have no idea what native appropriation is. There's a reason why the cleveland indians get to keep this extremely racist mascot

Same reason why hipster clothing companies get away with stealing aztec and navajo traditional patterns. It's using racist generalizations of native personhood and culture for capitalism, be it for a baseball team or to write your new age book on spirituality. It's one in the same, and if we different tribes could claim in US court that they were taking it specifically then those capitalists wouldn't be able to get away with it. But it doesn't work out that way b/c it's always generalizations of natives, not specifics.

James Lovelock is not taking a specific tribe or nations spirituality, he is taking general ideas on inter-connectivity to dress up a HYPOTHESIS that is actually based on computer systems theory. Many indigenous ideals rest on this inter-connected spirituality, and he is using it as dressing for his cybernetic theories. Same with his use of the greek godess Gaia. He manipulated this greek mythology for his own use to appeal to the new age. Please read this research paper on the elusive industry of western appropriation of Native peoples: http://www.asanas.org.uk/files/003Welch.pdf Hippies have been doing it for half a century now, and making good money off it.


In regards to homeostasis, it is not simply a concept of biology. Going back to it's creators in Claude Bernard and later picked up by Walter B. Cannon in the 1920s, it was apart of the new emerging science of cybernetics. If you look at their biographies you'll see they're physiologists in the field of biomedical cybernetics. I'm telling you, the machine view of the world and organisms has been around in western science for a long long time. You gotta actually look into this stuff.

Homeostasis is of cybernetic origin. Here's an article on it that shows that homeostasis in cybernetics takes away free will. It posits that we are selfish machines that only work towards inner physical equilibrium. How could this be possible with the amount of disease, degeneration, obesity, health problems, suicides, etc in our world today? We are not robots, we have free will.

"A homeostatic system, cybernetic theory tells us, is inherently selfish. There is no way to put this into a moral context, since it is simply a fact within the nature of the cybernetic machine, which posesses a paticular teleology proper to it."

Apply that to the Gaia theory of earth, which James Lovelock posits is a cybernetic homeostatic system, and you realize that this is a nightmarish way to look at our own mother. Earth is abundant if we take care of her... This notion she's a selfish machine is ridiculous and perpetuated by people who've made Gaia a religion: "Protect thyself from the Passover. Gaia doesn't like Them." - phyllode "..fairbanks..why should 'Gaia' care about You..or Us humans" - nen888

These Gaian religious fanatics use this theory as stamp of approval that they care about the environment to the point where they become pretentious. It's sad.

Ok, so here are the two gaping holes in your arguments. I have to be honest, between your inability to engage with these flaws and your labeling of me as an "armchair activist" when you know NOTHING of the campaigns I have been involved with (simply because I advocate deep ecology) this will be my last post in this thread.

1) You accuse Lovelock of engaging in appropriation. As a student of anthropology, I'm well-aware of what appropriation is. Just for time's sake, let's go with the wikipedia definition: "Cultural appropriation is the adoption of some specific elements of one culture by a different cultural group." Therefore, when you make the claim:


You are not only acknowledging that he is not engaging in appropriation, you are also lumping together a whole host of indigenous beliefs, creating a singular entity/identity out of a myriad of diverse cultures, as I already pointed out. In other words, you are claiming he is appropriating general abstractions from a non-existent entity.

Additionally, as I pointed out earlier, there are a whole host of similar cultural elements that appear independently in numerous cultures, as you yourself acknowledge. This is indicated by your making claims about "many indigenous ideals" sharing similar principles.

2) Cybernetics is merely the study of self-regulating systems...not some spooky technological boogeyman, as you seem to want to make it out to be. Homeostasis is observed in biological organisms, ecological islands and other "natural" arenas. The fact that homeostasis is an observable phenomenon in biological organisms does not become irrelevant simply because you feel that it is too mechanical. There are clearly mechanical aspects to nature/reality/existence.

peace

..phyllode wrote:

nen888 wrote:

Apoc wrote:
Snozzleberry wrote:
Jamie wrote:
Mystic0 wrote:


fairbanks wrote:
..i think phyllode's 'They' are the destructive archetypes of the language areas of the mind..the 'dark places of the inside' said. The Mara. Veiled. Corrupt strings of code. Language. Alien to the early Source Code dna.

YOU jumped to an ASSUMPTION that THEY meant YOU/US..

..and can't you have a liitle FUN with what are really a sizeable minority's psychological archetypal fears - Them - Separation - AlienNation. 'Real' or 'Immagined'..

and as for 'the makings of a Religious Cult' as you label phyllode and perhaps others..

no!, I'm a SPIRITUAL CULTIST and FUZZY LOGICIAN.

phyllode to me's like a Koan Maestro..it Should annoy the rational..who cares..?
Chuck D said:

and Apoc, I have had a very AWAKENED week too. Has it climaxed yet?

..keep smiling, all-a-ya..

It can also be generalizations. It's not absolutely specific. Clothing companies that appropriate apache art generalize, they're not taking specific pieces but making generalizations. Same with sports racist mascots appropriating the whole indian warrior ideal. Those are generalized appropriations.

If you're an anthropology student how could you not realize that maybe wikipedias definition is a bit too specific itself.

Please check out that article about appropriation, if you're going to school for anthropology then you'll most def enjoy it.



'Cybernetics' comes from Greek origin meaning "the art of steering"... It's not merely the study of self regulating systems. Cybernetics is the study of CONTROL in systems by feedback that is self-regulating. It only relates to computers not to nature and here's a study by Dr. Daniel Botkin that proved this! Cybernetics comes from systems theory and merged into computers so in my eyes YES it is the technological boogeyman of ecology and western science's view on nature. It merely was an american mechanical ideal.

Here's the originator of cybernetics, Norbert Wiener's book.

Please explain how that is a benign science?

I'm sorry but your belief that our mother earth, or as you call it Gaia, is selfish and mechanistic, is ridiculous.

Nen888 I can only take you for your written word. I don't understand your underlying meanings and esoteric messagess about aliens and the dna source code...

..fairbanks, i would recommend then either a) reading up on cross-cultural mythological archetypes, and world ancient beliefs.. or b) switch the rational mind off for a while and read some poetry or music..

really, what'm saying actually comes from a i) humanist psychology perspective; and ii) documented human history perspective

you think i'm esoteric..god! there's people in here 'd scare you..!

DNA = Words>Letters = Language

RNA = sub-routine of DNA

Virus = RNA alienated, no DNA

excessive levels of mutation Likely to be un-balancing to the host organism

Computer Virus or Language Virus = actually same thing in principle

Language affects our Thoughts hence moods, actions, behaviour etc.

..i don't like long rambling posts..enuff said..

I had this strange feeling about that time that I was in some strange transitional space. I tend to feel as if the world goes through spaces in time and space where things are more holy and strange, like holy days but with no coincidence with the calender. I feel as if an extra strange day had passed about then. For some reason I feel more in my head those days and I feel as if my thoughts have more power then. It's weird, I wake up and know when the vibes arn't normal.

Nen888,

I have read about mythological archetypes, Joseph Campbell is one of my favorite authors. I DON'T read all the new age selection bias of mythology that's out there. They take bits and pieces of mythology and piece them together to make an elaborate esoteric puzzle.

You think I don't read poetry or listen to music? LMAO. I'm not a rational robot. Sure, I like to prove wrong unstable new age theories on forums, but I'm not as rational as you think.

Humanism is a very anthropocentric view of the world. It's funny how you're a gaian and a humanist at the same time, a bit contradictory huh? I never thought I'd hear a humanist say, "why should 'Gaia' care about You..or Us humans."

Jesus! and holy mother of god..!!?

live and let live

fairbanks..it was a Rhetorical Question. rather than a proclamative statement (as in "..you said..etc.."

ok..read some more philosophy, dialogues, death metal and punk..

.i'm retiring.................................zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz

nen..you quoted me in referance to phyllodes post where he spoke of "them".

My post was not in response at all to phyllodes post. I never even read that comment by him till I read it quoted in your post. My post had nothing at all to do with that quote.

I dont disagree with you though.

^..my apologies jamie.. and nice to hear from you...

Over the past couple of weeks strange things have been happening at night. I woke up one night around 3am pacific time and my body was buzzing. When I first woke up I thought it was a mild earthquake (I live in northern CA). Then realized it was my body right up the center from the top of my head to my root chakra and a little less buzzing in the legs.

It was pretty intense and it went on for about 20 min. I figured I'd just lie there and breath, like I had a choice, ha ha. Then I went back to sleep.

Then it happened a couple of more times. a couple of days apart. less intense.

THen last night the dream I had just before waking. I was talking to someone outdoors, and dots were appearing in the space around me and opening to about the size of a soft ball revealing different swirly colors. Like space was pealing back or splitting open to show a different space. They'd open then close. I thought am I tripping or is this really happening, like I didn't think I was dreaming, it felt like I was awake. Then woke up. Weird.

Nope

I was personally just saying how I felt that night (a few days ago).
And was trying to offer some care and understanding for Divine Moments Of Truth (hope u feeling better wherever u r now) .

Sounds like you worried about others cutting in on your Religious Cult Following eh Maxxx? .
'There can only be One!', eh?

Loved jamie and snozzlberry's posts.

But, fairbanks, and I know you're smart and knowledgable. Did you ever actually respond to Apoc's original post?
Like, what was this thread about?

Thank you Apoc for your sharings.

Bless u fairbanks, sincerely, and all.