Amen to that.

I must admit that i find these spiritual posts to be somewhat annoying. I usually ignore them, but was drawn to this thread because of it's heat.

Some people will believe in the Bible and intepret it in whatever way they choose, and for THAT reason i choose now to not be interested in that book whatsoever. IMO, and it's only MY OPINION, Buddhism in it's most basic of forms is probably the most user friendly religion. It teaches the middle path which today seems more important than ever.

As a kid, i was forced to goto Church, but hated it, found it to be dull and uninteresting. I sure believe that nature will allow us the freedom to live in what it provides, and that if we wise up to that fact we can live in harmony. But in general, i consider Religion to be something COMPLETELY seperate- a human invention, and perhaps one which has become the GREATEST folly to mankind.

Nature is what allows us to survive, not silly thoughts about Religions, ROTFLMAO!!!!

"God" cannot save you by praying, or going to Church or a temple, if you can't eat!!

I think you are missing the point here. Studying the bible, or any other ancient text for that matter, doesn't necessarily have anything to do with faith or truth. For good or bad, sources like the bible have shaped our society and culture. I don't think you would ditch mythology or history, and this is no different.

At least that's the way I understood what Purges asked. And don't get me wrong, I'm 100% with you in the sense that an afternoon in the woods delivers more enlightenment than an afternoon reading the old testament or the Upanishads. But it's not about encouraging people to read the bible for religious purposes, it's about understanding. Symbols, archetypes, evolution of religion and spirituality... I see nothing wrong with that.

Ummm, actually, I agree with Jamie. Religious teachings and stuff are highly questionable, especially from the mouth of other humans. Why not munch shrooms and "get it" directly from source rather than hear it second hand???

For that reason i shun religions. I can make my own journey, and if i fuck up so what, there are no such things as mistakes in the evolutionary states of energy, just opportunities for learning. I won't let old religions hold me back based on the knowledge they had at their time. That was then, this is now... God isn't stuck in the past, but moves with the times. Wake up fools!!

Vodsel says:




I agree......I see nothing wrong with it either but clearly to some the subject is TABOO

Of course they are questionable. But to push the analogy so I make my point, I can perfectly read and study the Mein Kampf even if I am not a nazi. I might want to understand a text that shaped a generation, or a movement, or have a glimpse of Hitler's psychology. It's true that I have to be aware of what I'm reading. But I always assumed we were talking about reading the bible critically. Not to find god.

Again, it's not to do with "getting it" or enlightment imo.

The way i see it is this: Religion is an insidious form of people control, a way of calming their agressive possible natures. Now we have television, and that has replaced religion... morphine for the masses!!!

However, Religion, like television, may be clever... but has nothing to do with THE TRUTH, for that is something truly personal, individual. Religion is for dumb fools IMO. No disrespect, i was once such a fool, but no more!!

One could combine the perspectives of christian and Vodsel with this phrase:

Know the enemy.

I can agree with that

Not really on topic but you know what annoys me about religious people, whenever theres a disaster like an earthquake or plane crash or a baby born with a deadly disease they say "oh poor baby, person or whatever, i will pray to god for you" why would you pray to the person who causes such tragic events and ask them for help? It's backwards thinking imho. It's like asking a murderer for help or something. This kind of thinking is completely illogical imo.

I actaully think you missed my point. I did not say there is no value at all in studying religion or ancient texts, nor was my post directed at purges in particular..I have spent a lot of time trying to figure out the vedas..

There is a difference between open minded interest and exploration, and arguementative absolutism.

Everyone should stop once and a while and realize that they are just little tiny humans..why would you ever think that YOU have the ultimate truth? All you have is a life of ideas, reguardless of how tangible those ideas are for you. Those ideas become YOUR reality..but realities in my experience seem little more than boundries to be dissolved.

That does not mean there is no relevant use for such paradigms..but often times I see people(especially within religion) who get cuaght up in the forms, without any relevant connection to the function of such a form. We are in a new world..old forms dont always function the same way when everything else around them changes. Old rituals and dogmas are a perfect example of this.

There is a lot to be gained from the study of old world texts and cultures..but it should never be a replacement for what is always available to us today. We were humans living on a little tiny planet back then and we are still just humans living on a tiny little planet.

It's far more likely that we dont know shit when it comes to the sort of knowing that can be passed from one individual to another. What we can know is our own gnosis and that's it. You cant pass that on to anyone. People either find themselves in a situation where they see some sort of light for themselves or they dont.

This is the main fault of religion..billions of people without personal gnosis trying to recreat the gnosis of some long dead individuals through moral absolutism and naive submission to people who realize this, and take advantage of the rest.

Personally, i think religion is poop.

Are you saying that passages and or meanings of manuscripts from Bible books such as Genesis are known to exist which are not considered/omitted in "mainstream" textual research? If this is true could you please provide a reference, as I would like to read up on it.

I thought about this reasoning when I was reading your previous post... I think I know you enough to have a little outline of how you think. And you're right in what you say. Maybe I am assuming that people reading this thread aren't vulnerable in that sense, and that's probably too large an assumption.

The disclaimer before any bible is obvious to me; I guess that supposing it will be obvious for others is wishful thinking.

Thing is, I am probably too used to discuss about religion and religious doctrines with people who, like I do, look at them like fossiles. Evidences for human evolution. They are human traits crystallized in time, often degenerated into a twisted social system, shaped by people who had reasons to hide, rewrite or pervert: need for power, or social control, or fear and paranoic projection.




I was happy to get the f**k out of a catholic upbringing, and my wife spent her early life in a sect. So I know well where does that come from. After religion has reared its hideous face to you, you radicalize yourself. It's a healthy, wise reaction. I've spent many years in raging active atheism, and I eventually understood that by limiting our scope of religion to major monotheisms we are in a way letting them win, so I've tried to extend my concept of religion to include cults and beliefs that make more sense and are much less destructive. Also, I think of myself as agnostic now. I am an atheist for many gods, but I am not sure if for all.

So I agree that most organized religion is poop. But no need to discuss concepts and get knee-deep in mud, I think we both know what we mean.

The Evolution of God is a worthwhile read.

as a nexian i feel obliged to expose myself to alternate perspectives without bias in order to glean what truths may lie within the whole.

i think its important we excercise compassion for each others view as it is just as real as our own.

consider the story of the blind men and the elephant:






Once upon a time, there lived six blind men in a village. One day the villagers told them, "Hey, there is an elephant in the village today."

They had no idea what an elephant is. They decided, "Even though we would not be able to see it, let us go and feel it anyway." All of them went where the elephant was. Everyone of them touched the elephant.

"Hey, the elephant is a pillar," said the first man who touched his leg.

"Oh, no! it is like a rope," said the second man who touched the tail.

"Oh, no! it is like a thick branch of a tree," said the third man who touched the trunk of the elephant.

"It is like a big hand fan" said the fourth man who touched the ear of the elephant.

"It is like a huge wall," said the fifth man who touched the belly of the elephant.

"It is like a solid pipe," Said the sixth man who touched the tusk of the elephant.

They began to argue about the elephant and everyone of them insisted that he was right. It looked like they were getting agitated. A wise man was passing by and he saw this. He stopped and asked them, "What is the matter?" They said, "We cannot agree to what the elephant is like." Each one of them told what he thought the elephant was like. The wise man calmly explained to them, "All of you are right. The reason every one of you is telling it differently because each one of you touched the different part of the elephant. So, actually the elephant has all those features what you all said."

"Oh!" everyone said. There was no more fight. They felt happy that they were all right.

The moral of the story is that there may be some truth to what someone says. Sometimes we can see that truth and sometimes not because they may have different perspective which we may not agree too. So, rather than arguing like the blind men, we should say, "Maybe you have your reasons." This way we don’t get in arguments. In Jainism, it is explained that truth can be stated in seven different ways. So, you can see how broad our religion is. It teaches us to be tolerant towards others for their viewpoints. This allows us to live in harmony with the people of different thinking. This is known as the Syadvada, Anekantvad, or the theory of Manifold Predictions.




truth exists outside of our immediate perception as well as within it, please come from love so we dont squelch anothers valuable perspective.....

This is slightly off topic, but I thought I'd try and get a few laughs . . .

This is a paraphrased version of a David Cross bit that I think is apropos:


Some day I want to settle down and get married and have kids. I don't know what my wife is going to believe in, but I certainly want to respect her superstitions. I've hit on the perfect solution on how to raise our kid: I've decided to raise them to be Amish. Y'know, instill that hardworking ethic in them, and the sense of morals. And I'm sure there will be some problems; eventually the kids will ask me why I get to watch TV and play video games and have lights on in the house but they don't.

"Well, son," I'll say. "That's because Daddy's not Amish. See, you are, honey, that's what you believe in. Now go harvest my breakfast."

book, no book, whatever. im good with exploration of consciousness, discovering the vast spectrum of experience. synchronicity of reality is miraculous, i feel divinity within me, i see the world as a river of love flowing eternally/cyclically. life is the most beautiful thing to be had and should be cherished as such.

i like your reply jamie, i feel very much in tune with it.


please be sure to allow others to feel in their own right though, even if theres a majority of one perspective it dosent discount the minority as they may have awareness the majority does not....


harmony guys!


try not to tread on others toes!

I knew when posting this thread that it would probably go one of two ways - either be completely ignored, or turn into a bit of a pissing contest. I was right

Vodsel hit the nail on the head. My reasons for wanting to do this are not so that I can re-integrate into the Church and buy back into the dogma, I long am past that. I have had my fill of organized religion and don't think that studying it will make me any more enlightened as such, but I do think it will make me more culturally and historically aware - which may lead to a slightly enhanced world view, particularly when combined with knowledge of other sacred texts and 'shamanic' practices.

What I am finding hard to swallow is that people actually have a problem with my wanting to delve into the spiritual past of my species. This sort of attitude reminds me of Aldous Huxleys Brave New World, where the (heavily brainwashed) general public are led to believe that 'history is bunk', which leads them to totally disregard it, meaning that they consequently dis-empower themselves. I want to live in a world where all perspectives are valued, where all people can experience their share of understanding of this enormous mystery.

Why do we even bother taking entheogens? Or talking about them? Mew's story of the elephant was very poignant I feel. We have a desire to perceive the entire 'elephant'. It's not something that happens instantly, it's a journey. Some are content to follow some one elses road map, some feel the need to study all the road maps, and others just chose to take to the road and see where it takes them, or a combination of these approaches. Psychedelics have opened my mind up in ways that I could not have anticipated when I was a 10 year old choir boy (laugh all you want ) - but even at that age, I was fascinated by the altering of consciousness, so I added that to my repertoire, against the advice of the state, spiritual institutions, my parents even.

Why such polarity and dogma on both sides? Knowledge is power. I am not going to let some one elses dogma dis-empower me, that's for damn sure. I want to learn all angles and make my own mind up.

To lift a line from Robert Anton Wilson,

I don't have Dogmas (Absolute Beliefs),
but Catmas (Relative Meta-Beliefs) !!!