it may not be the most powerful or potent, but my opinion, unlike lsd and salvinorum, nearly everybody has extremely spiritual life changing effects with dmt, whilst salvia is more like an "oh shit" drug and lsd is more of a euphoric enjoy the time, then go back to your life drug

dmt is verrry verrry special

Why would you compare 20mgs of LSD to 20mgs of DMT when I'm talking about power and not potency? You need to keep it in context of their respective dosages. Yes 20mgs is a HUGE dose of acid. 20mgs of DMT is a rather small dose of DMT. You don't need to take 200 times the normal dose of DMT to get catapulted into hyperspace. Even my threshold DMT trips are more powerful than my threshold LSD experiences. Coming up on DMT I already feel out of body before the visuals even hit. Even on my LSD peaks, with full on visuals and everything, I still feel rather grounded and not as "moved" as I do by DMT.

Besides, I didn't say the molecule itself was more powerful, I said the ROA was. Any kind of psychedelic rush like that causes hallucinations to stack upon themselves until your visual senses turn into absurdity.

I agree here. It's special because it can reliably produce the effects of profound 'religious' (insert your own word, spiritual, mystic, etc) experience every single time you use it. On LSD (which there are of course analogues which are even more potent than LSD-25) or Psilocin you will not reliably receive that epiphany moment. This reminds me of the thread where the guy was talking about crying after his DMT journeys. He was in awe of the experience because it is quite awesome.

I've done this so many times

Those are two completely different ways of measuring the strength of those two drugs. One way is measuring the amount of each drug in mass.

The other way is by measuring physical effect of the drug, much like using the Shulgin scale.

Either way you need less of LSD to achieve threshold dose as compared to DMT, DMT's threshold dose is much stronger in physical effect but more mass is required. You could argue that just because threshold dose is stronger in DMT doesn't mean jack cause the effects of LSD are easier detected at lower doses. Which would lead to why it is actually stronger than DMT because at that amount you have no idea that you have taken any DMT at all. So it takes more DMT in order to feel its effects.

just sayin

Yes and that would regard "potency" not "power". LSD is a much more potent chemical by a long shot. But I think when people talk about DMT being powerful they are talking about the subjective experience in it's respective dosages. Although LSD can be spiritual at times there are times where it's really no much more than a wacky distortion of reality. DMT, on the other hands, seems to, even in low doses, cause an incredibly emotional experience. Of course that's all subjective and will differ from person to person, but I feel that if a lot of people are saying the same thing then the majority will feel this way. I've had low dose DMT trips that felt much more magical and profound than moderate LSD trips where I would just laugh at my melting world.

I'm fairly positive that's what people are referring to when they say DMT is the most powerful hallucinogen known. However, I'm not sure I entirely agree with that as I've said before smoking something vs taking something orally will make a huge difference in the way the chemical enters your brain. It's hard to know what oral DMT would be like because the MAOI's, from what I've read, seem to add a new dimension to the trip. In the case of 4-aco-dmt however, people have stated that orally is closer to mushrooms and IV is closer to DMT like effects. So I think that says something about the ROA and it's effect on how "powerful" the experience is.

I agree

Its called dose response. When talking about closely related tryptamine analogs potency is directly proportional to power.

The only way you can compare effects of a drug is via dose. 300 micro grams of dmt is subthreshold. 300 micro grams of lsd is a good dose.

If you don't believe LSD is as powerful then you CLEARLY have not taken a large dose.
LSD at the 1000mg dose is quite powerful and those taking a thumb print are gone for days.

Lsd is WAY more powerful than DMT. At 1000mgs you are seeing visuals in 15 minutes. 1 hour in you are hyperspace for the next 8 hours with another 4 hours of hard open eye visuals.

This really Isnt debatable

Btw 5-meo-dmt is also more potent and thus more powerful

Yes it is because you're not talking about respective dosages. Power isn't "How f***ed up I get at x mass." It's "How much of an IMPACT did this experience have on me."

Why would you compare 20mgs of LSD to 20mgs of DMT? And what are you comparing 1000 mics to? 1000 mics of DMT? No ones arguing that DMT is more potent so it's not a worthwhile argument. Like I said, in COMPARATIVE trips I have found DMT to have much more of an impact on the psyche than LSD.

ie. Say I take enough LSD to make the walls wiggle a little and have slight pattern formation. Then I take a dose of DMT to the same effect. On LSD I'm feeling slightly stoned, on DMT I'm already feeling the presence of spirits radiating from the walls.

No one in their right mind would say DMT is more potent so I don't know why you're going on about it. It's clear that people are referring to the subjective effects at respective doses of each substance.

For sake of argument, let's pretend that 2c-b has the same dose response curve as LSD. I would still consider LSD a more powerful chem as I find 2cb to be absolutely hollow and substance-less. You get what I'm saying? Dosage aside many people find DMT a much more moving chem. Of course, that's still subjective.

Since my comment apparently sort of derailed this thread, I'd like to clarify.

When I say, "most powerful hallucinogen known to man", I'm not referring to its actual potency, which (as we can see here) can be measured and evaluated by a number of diffrrent yardsticks. What I'm referring to is DMT's reputation in popular culture. If you read a not-very-accurate newspaper article about DMT, they inevitably say something along those lines.

You need to understand dose response curves. (Response in this case is subjective effect and not IC50 value) And you need to understand where a typical (say 35mg) hit of DMT lies on it's dose/response curve with say a typical 175mcg blotter of LSD.

In order to make comparisons of 'power' you need to make sure that the dose for each drug is in the same region of the dose response curve. In the case of a typical dose of LSD and a typical dose of freebase DMT you are not even remotely close to the same region of the dose response curve.

When you inhale a 35mg hit of DMT you are far to the right of the DMT dose/response curve (dose on x-axis increasing from left to right and response on y axis (increasing bottom to top). If you take much more DMT you are likely to have a white out or black out like experience. It may not be 35mgs it may be 50mgs for you, but if you go past the hyperspace point by to much you wil have a white out...and not the Godhead sort. This means you are at the peak of the response and increases in dose are no longer doing much. AKA You have maxed out the DMT power and potency.

When you take a single blotter (or even 10) of LSD you are still very much on the left side of the LSD dose response curve for this drug. If you take enough LSD to put you are same relative location on the dose response curve as a DMT break through I think you will find out quite quickly that LSD is actually the more potent and powerful of the two.

Let's put this in perspective shall we. A thumb print of LSD would be the equivalent dose of a break through hit of DMT. I can say this because people have taken thumb prints and had multiday long break through experiences....without blackout or whiteout. I sincerely suggest you DO not do this. It will likely change you permanently.

BTW for what it's worth (probably not much) my training is in medicinal chemistry. I work in drug discovery. I really am not just making this up to argue with you. I saying this as a caution to others. What you say is simply not true and if some one believes that DMT was the 'most powerful' and that a drug like LSD could never be that powerful they could do serious harm to their long term psychological state.


BTW Yes I understand popular culture say's it's the most powerful. So what. We do psychedelics for god sakes..when the hell did we start caring what popular culture thinks and says! lol

And yes. DMT is damn powerful. I have had experiences where i was immersed in the God head for 20 minutes and came out with face down on the ground in prayer position and tears streaming down my face. I however, would never in a million years take an LSD thumb print.

You're still rambling about potency and that's not what we're talking about here. I understand dose response. This is about SUBJECTIVE psychedelic effects, not receptor affinity or any of that jazz.

I believe, and I've heard many people confirm it, that the DMT experience has a sort of "intelligence" behind it which other psychedelics lack in similar RESPECTIVE doses. I'm saying this because I was on the same page as you, thinking that if I just took a ton of LSD I would have similar effects. I posed this question on the shroomery a long time back and a couple of people with high dose LSD experiences (and one with a thumbprint experience) said that you can go as far out on LSD as you want and it never really reaches the absurdity of DMT. Though I'm not sure if I absolutely believe that, I've already stated that I've taken the two to similar effect and still had more powerful experiences on DMT. Once again, I'm not talking about how "f***ed up" I was. I'm talking about the SUBJECTIVE experience. THAT is an opinion, and no matter how many graphs you pull up you're not going to rationalize it with dose response. That's NOT what we're discussing when we say DMT is the most powerful psychedelic because that would be absolutely wrong. In that respect DMT would be one of the least powerful psychedelics as DOx, 25x, bromo-dragonfly, 2c-x, psilocybin, etc are all more potent to my knowledge. In fact that would make DMT second to mescaline as one of the weakest psychedelics (off the top of my head of course. I don't know the response for all RC's out there.)

I really don't know how I could make it anymore clear, but I highly doubt ANYONE is arguing the potency of the two. So clearly, you're making the wrong argument. If you want to say they're equally powerful you're arguing an opinion which is pointless. I've taken threshold doses of DMT that have pointed my head towards the stars and made me reevaluate my existence. And I've taken moderate doses of LSD which just made me laugh. LSD IME just doesn't have that "spirit" feel of DMT in moderate or low doses. Perhaps it gets stronger in higher doses, but I have yet to find anything comparable in any other psyche.

Let me put it this way... Would you say that xanax is more powerful than MDMA because you only have to take 1-3mg as opposed to 100-300mg? No because they're too different experiences. Power isn't rated in potency. Of course that's an exaggeration, but I hope you see the point. Just because LSD is more potent, it's not the same drug as DMT, therefore the power of the two is completely subjective. They may be chemically related, but I don't think they feel even remotely similar as far as psychedelics go.

By the way if this comes off as rushed or rude forgive me I've spent the entire weekend struggling with math and chem work and my brain is absolutely fried. I just think what you're saying isn't what other people are talking about

You are seriously dense if you believe that after my last post.
Tell me wise guy, what did I say in the VERY first line of my post?
Hear let me get it again for you because apparently you would rather argue and try to look right instead of learning something about the comparison drugs. Please take special note the BOLD part. And then why not go back and actually read my post. It was meant to educate and inform you because you are only spouting some stupid ass insane opinion.



I have nothing more to say.

Go ahead and smoke your "WORLDS MOST POWERFUL DRUG"

I do have something else to say.

I am sorry for being so condescending in my last post.
Seriously my bad and my honest apology.

Peace

What the heck is more powerful than DMT?

I don't mean by weight, I mean as far as the experience itself goes.

Chuck Norris

But chuck norris was beaten by Bruce Lee. So there is always a more powerful force I suppose.



EDIT: What if Chuck Norris were to smoke DMT?????

Chuck Norris in space! Even ET will crawl under their holographic desks to avoid Chuck Norris's ethereal fists!

Alright well I have yet to take upper biology and chemistry so I wasn't familiar with what an IC50 was and probably read right over that.

I still don't think you can use potency to justify the power of the experience. Rather than trying to refute what you say I just want you to answer one question.

If LSD is "more powerful" then why on COMPARATIVE doses (not by mass, but by effect) does DMT seem to have a much more powerful psychological impact on me?

Notice I'm NOT talking about typical doses of each. I'm talking, threshold vs threshold, moderate vs moderate. I know the typical DMT dose (35mg) is higher up on the dose response than the typical 175mics of LSD. I'm not an idiot. I never argued that and yet you continue to think I am.




Exactly!! It's a stupid opinion! The power of an experience is a f***ing opinion! At least in the context people are using it when they say "DMT is the most powerful psychedelic."