Very true Vodsel.

I agree that there will never be an adequate way to rank entheogen users in terms that are useful.

And yet, we do have a probationary period here on the Nexus. It is a form of elitism (a necessary and useful one I believe), that we don't let newcomers post wherever and whatever they want. You must earn promotion to full ranking member... and if you earn the "mod" title, you do indeed have VIP privileges here that the rest of us must respect.

As you have wisely noted, this is not a judgement of your entheogen mastery, but rather your progression within this online community.

I made the post above mostly as an exercise in contrarian thinking, and to invite debate on a controversial topic... but I really do feel that exclusivity, elitism, and even a healthy dose of arrogance are not bad things. Truth be told, I think they are essential if you want to separate the wheat from the chaff.

If you have ever been in a drum circle where everyone was considered equal regardless of skill, and then sat in with a real percussion troupe where skill is noted and those with higher levels of it are given more freedom for soloing and leading... you will understand the difference between a cacophony of mediocrity and something that can generate high art.

I submit that this difference is actual elitism in its benevolent form.

I doubt if anyone here who might feel a bit put off by what I am saying would actually want to really live in a world without such useful elitist structures. I prefer meritocracy to democracy, and I think that the idea of letting high school physics students have the same privileges as our best rocket scientists is clearly ludicrous.

How does this apply to our community of psychonauts?

I am not sure.

All I can really say is that the societies that have the longest history and experience with entheogens have clear hierarchies of shamanism. In any medicine circle I was ever privy to, there was always a clear leader... the shaman. If anyone in the circle didn't respect his or her authority and greater knowledge... the circle didn't work. Even when you brought two or more shaman together, if there wasn't a clear delineation of who was the alpha shaman... trouble always ensued.

I don't think we need to deal with this stuff in the context of the Nexus (which is already an elite and exclusive community). When someone here with the chemist icon weighs in on a chemistry issue, that member is given the respect they deserve and not considered equal to someone who has yet to even extract pure white spice.

I do think that in our personal lives and when we decide to share spice with others... a sober acknowledgement of the various levels of the people involved in sessions should be respected. There is very good reason why people getting high in a hierarchy free party environment rarely reach sublime states. IMHO (or perhaps in this case In My Not So Humble Opinion)

Anyway, this is a subject that deserves to be wrestled with. However you come down on the issue, I think it is clear that without the exclusive privilege of driving being restricted to people who have demonstrated their ability to drive and their understanding of the rules of the road... driving would be a far more dangerous activity than it already is. I don't think we should get rid of driver's licenses (an example of elitism) and I certainly don't think that 10 year olds without even rudimentary lessons in driving should be behind the wheel of anything more powerful than a bicycle.

I view entheogens to be of a similar (if not more profound) level of danger in the hands of those who are unprepared. In our culture, these substances are not protected by shamanic traditions, and the fact that they are used wily nilly by pubescent teens in the same context as binge drinking and beer pong is what leads to 90% of the horror stories that give us all a bad name. How much cooler would this all be if those kids learned at the hip of a real shaman?

No objection to what you say. In any activity where mistakes are dangerous (specially if a mistake can put the whole community in jeopardy) licenses to exercise should have requirements.

I just wanted to point out that the rights for admission are not clear, and of course I'm not referring to the Nexus here. They are not clear because the global culture of entheogens is young and de-centralized, and also because it has a lot of faces, we're not even sure about how many, and we're all barely probing the ground.

Another reason to take one big look to shamanic groups, as you say. Trans-cultural research in this might give us a few keys to custody the experience in a good way when necessary.

Makes me think of the Eleusinian Mysteries, maybe because elitism and meritocracy were not strange words for the ancient greeks.



Not a bad start I guess. And not difficult to see parallels with our community.

I feel everyone is singing from the same song sheet here except poor Albert, who isn't even singing descant

This is the post that I wish I had read before participation. Im all honesty I want to express that I did not follow the ground rules advised in respect to amounts and settings and intent and therefore you may say that I only have myself to blame but having spoken to a few other people that have taken heroic doseages (all who I would class as long haul travelllers) I can honestly say that they have had their asses whooped as well and are still struggling with their current reality even to this day.

For me I get angry when people say do 150mg do 200mg do 250mg - I can appreciate that different people have different tolerences and also that they would of had different life and substance experiences as well as upbringing, culture etc but let me assure you of this - I simply am NOT buying it that you can smoke 200mg and come out unscathed in any shape or form.

I am still here to write this but I do not know why? I am not scare mongering I'm just saying that it might start off okay but trust me sooner or later you will get a big kicking and its not all love and light.

I have not idea why this happens or if there is a residual build up within the body but it does and I had mine having been told to "go heroic" if you want to break through. You do not need large doses to break through at all.

Lastly I would be very interested to understand or learn of anyone that has insuffalated this substance without the use of a MAOI and if so what the experience is as this surely bypasses the endrochronyne system or anyone that has had this administered by IV as I just do not see any correlation in trip reports between smoking and IV.

Thank you all for the contribution you are all right in your observations based I guess on what part of the elephant you are touching.

I would never suggest to anyone that they dose high, however if you take something over and over and have no problems is there really anything wrong with exploring higher dose ranges in a careful and controlled setting?

As defined in this thread there are two types of elitism, one is benevolent, the other is condescending. One is kind, the other is inconsiderate. I don't see authority structures as elitism, a teacher is not elite in my view, although they have students that are in their charge.


This was in reference to skill, like int eh drum circle example. I don't see skill as elitism. I know a lot of musicians and martial artists for example, clearly some are more skilled than others, but there is no elitism in those circles, in terms of practice. One could say a skill is more elite than another, I agree with that but am addressing elitism as a practice of prejudice.

In that sense there are two forms of elitism here, one in terms of "skill" and the other in terms of "prejudice" and it is this latter that i am identifying and saying I think it is wrong. Both forms exist here. Considering yourself elite (not accusing anyone of this) is really an ego thing and I think it is unhealthy insofar as it creates divisions that are nearly impossible to overcome and that once in place prevent benevolence from taking place in terms of action and word. A guide that takes you up a mountain is not practicing elitism by being your guide, he may tell you where to step, so that you live, this is teaching, however that is not a practice of elitism. If it were akin to the elitism that I oppose here the guide would refuse to take you up the mountain, refuse to tell you where and how to step, and would insult you for not being a guide.

I would say yes to the benevolent vs. condescending versions of elitism in general... but I disagree with the skill vs. prejudice dichotomy.

Identifying skill (and even moreso mastery) has prejudice built into it. Prejudice--like elitism and exclusivity--is a term that has a bad rap, but is only a bad thing in its perverted and distorted forms. Generally speaking, if your prejudices turn into an -ISM, you have gone over to the dark side. Racism, Nationalism, Sexism etc.

Intelligence is all about recognizing patterns... well at least IQ is. It is disingenuous for us to deny the benefit of our pattern recognition and substitute our "common sense" for some PC idealism.

The fact is that if you are in a hospital, and a man wearing a white coat come bustling into the room with a somewhat distant pre-occupied look on his face, it is only natural to pre-judge him as a doctor. You will naturally treat him with a deference and respect reserved for his elite class. Of course, one must be open to the idea that things are not always what they seem to be. If he proceeds to tell you to do something morally reprehensible (in your code) you might be wise to lay your positive prejudice aside and ask for some further proof of his authority... and even still, you can get up and walk out if you find his methods not to your liking.

The point is that we make these pre-judgements all day long... for better or for worse. The fact is that we have little or no foolproof evidence for anything we assume to be true during the day. We observe things and then make judgments based on our understanding of the patterns, symbols, and energies involved. Those of us who are more observant, have a greater understanding of history and local conditions, or are especially insightful or intuitive will likely be able to trust their preconceived notions to a large extent.

Prejudice only becomes rotten when it becomes a default crutch that becomes dogmatic. When you stop paying attention and refining your opinion and stick to some adopted idea of a large group of people despite all evidence to the contrary. Even just assuming two people will behave in identical ways when they share a lot of features in their facade, is retarded thinking.

My point is, elitism and prejudice are not, in and of themselves, bad things. They must be watched, and kept in check. If one has a tendency to overdo them... then some extra attention paid to their counterbalancing forces of compassion, altruism and trust should be given. But I have to say that compassion is not always good. Blind trust will get you in a heap of trouble. And, some very evil things have been done in the name of altruism. The road to hell is paved with good intentions.

These things need to be in balance for them to be benevolent. Paint one side of the scale as good and rosy and the other side as wrong and sick... and you will be unbalanced.

I don't know about you, but I intend to keep prejudging people and situations... if only because I am nearly always right in this. I will always keep paying attention, and I am actually ecstatic when I am wrong... so much so that I usually err on the side of hoping that my judgment is wrong.

Elitism, exclusivity and prejudice are the cornerstones of any psychonaut's existence... especially if he or she doesn't want to end up locked in a cell. If you are at a party, there is almost certainly going to be some VIP zones that you need to be invited to or weasel your way into based on your basic cred. In these VIP rooms, people will be consuming drugs. There is a very logical and useful purpose to keeping these VIP rooms VIP ONLY. This is exclusivity at its finest. If you walk back out into the party with your peeps, you are now an elite group. You share a secret and a mindset that other people don't. Do you lord it over others? No. Like most real elite groups... you keep hush hush about it. The first rule of Fight Club is that you never talk about Fight Club.

Were you to be one of these annoying "be free brother" hippies (I am a hippie who was the son of two proto-hippies) and invite people back to the VIP room willy nilly... or worse still bring the VIP activities into the main room... you might get away with it a few times... especially if the party itself is fairly well all VIPs... but this disregard for proper elitist protocol WILL eventually land you in the hoosegow. You very well might bring down a number of your "friends" as well when the hammer falls.

I will stop (relatively soon) belaboring the point by saying that elitism is useful even when it crosses the border into condescension a bit. If you walked into the gym of a top tier basketball team like the Miami Heat or the Lakers, and thought you would be allowed to just shoot around with them... you would be treated with derision, laughter, and scorn. Some of the players might laugh and let you shoot a few hoops, but the elitist system in place would soon have security guards tossing you out on your ear. It matters very little that you might be a decent ball player.

You are not at their level of skill or achievement... even if you may--by some miracle--be gifted with more basketball innate mojo than some of them. If you want a place on one of those elite squads, you will have to earn it and prove your mettle the hard way. Working up through the ranks of the amateur and D-leagues... or being one of the best players on a college squad of note. This is exclusivity, prejudice, and elitism of a very high order... only 12 guys can be on the roster of those teams. Being on that roster earns you millions of dollars, private jet flights, 1st class accommodations, and women throwing themselves at you wherever you go. Be one of the best on that squad, and you are entitled to another level of perks including (but not limited to) endorsement deals with shoe makers, people begging you to be in their beer commercials, and another side stream of income as kids rush out to buy your jersey.

And... I wouldn't have it any other way.

Basketball is a very great spectator sport and something I have enjoyed my entire life because of the super high bar of elitism that the better NBA clubs maintain.

Likewise, my entheogenic circles are of a very high level because of a similar kind of elitism. If we descend into condescension from time to time... so be it. The condescension that my Sifu showed for unskilled ruffians, smart alecks and know-it-alls who entered his studio was profound. You could very easily inspire him to toss you around like a rag doll while laughing loudly in your face. Even us senior students could be subjected to a whack with a bamboo staff, a wooden sword, or even the flat blade of a kuan do if we crossed a line and presumed beyond our station. The difference between elitism in my studio and the egalitarian Tae Kwon Do studio down the street was the difference between having a 3,000 year lineage and a grandmaster who actually presided over a real Kung Fu monastery and learning generic self-defense from a guy who studied at his aerobics gym.

(condescending tone intentional)

I humbly disagree.

As for martial arts, Wu De is everything.

As you are well within your rights to do.

We are probably well outside the original purpose of this thread now, anyway. But I think this elitism and prejudice stuff is rather interesting... especially, or at least also, as it applies to entheogen users.

I would suggest a new thread here, but I don't think we would get that many people to bite... and the elitism topic was a major sub-topic here due to the exclusivity many of us have displayed in our judgment of who should and should not use spice.

Whatever the case may be, I think I made a decent case in defense of elitism, exclusivity and prejudice (in their benevolent forms of course)... if you want to do more than humbly disagree, feel free to dissect what I have said and show me where the error in my logic is.


Wu De (moral code of wu shu - Respect, Humility, Trust, Virtue, and Honor) seems cool, but it is certainly not everything. It doesn't even figure into all the Chinese martial arts... let alone martial arts in general. Hawaiian Lua and Lima-Lama have a different if somewhat overlapping code... and Capoeira has its own etc.

I think the 9 precepts of Musashi always rang more truly to my ears...

1. Think of what is right and true.
2. Practice and cultivate the science.
3. Become acquainted with every art.
4. Know the principles of the crafts.
5. Understand the harm and benefit in everything.
6. Learn to see everything accurately.
7. Become aware of what is not obvious.
8. Be careful even in small matters.
9. Do not do anything useless.

note: they encourage the kind of prejudice I spoke of

Interesting and sound advice. I was talking to my husband after watching the DMT movie and I said "This really makes me re-think what I put into my head". If my mind paints my reality during the experience than I'm not sure I trust it with the current "inventory" of experiences it has. I wish I could reload it with puppies, cupcakes, and unicorn farts. You can't unsee something.

Unfortunately ... (or fortunately ?) ... it is not up to ourselves what are we shown while on DMT...

I also have been asking myself, quite often actually: is it really "only" the unconscious of my mind? Or is it an "independent" order of reality? Or is it "The" reality? Is it "just" a hallucination? And other questions... in fact seeking the answer for WHAT IS THIS? WHAT WAS THAT?

DMT doesn´t produce any answers. DMT only produces further questions.

DMT doesn´t alter the reality. DMT alters how we perceive what is reality.

Well, what more can be said about this thread? It has been a very amazing and quite insightful read on my end. I'm extremly new to DMT, and everything about it.

I first caught wiff of this amazing, pretty unknown substance, almost a year ago. A few months worth of reading, researching, and asking around really got me into it. Way more, than just for the 'trip'. It really began to amaze me, the more I read about this stuff, how potent it was, and how it could bring your conscience to this 'other dimension'.

All of the people around here that I've asked about it, know absolutly nothing. So, there's no 'guru' around here that I can go to, or even ask to help me through this process. DMT is basically unheard of around here. I decided.. that I'd never ever buy this sort of stuff from anybody, ever, because it just doesn't seem right. And.. I've heard of one guy around here selling something.. "dmt" apparently.. that comes in vials the size of regular sharpies. Now.. I've yet to do it myself, but, I have produced a fair amount, because I'm quite untrusting of people around here, selling things they know little about. Everything that I have could fit, 5 or 6 times over into that sharpie sized vial. Thank you, but no. I don't know what's in there.

Way off track. Sorry. Months and months of reading, I decided to make my own. This sounds quite interesting. Once I finished everything, and had the final product, I decided to take a step back, and go out and re-read alot of the stuff I had already looked over a long time ago. It's right here, I could do this anytime I wanted to. But I wanted to prepair myself a little bit more. And, I was pretty sick too.. still am, currently.

I've came across this site, here and there, while I was researching before. But, up until last week, I had never really looked around the place. Then I found this thread.

The way you said the things you did, vovin, almost re-opened my eyes, for a third time. I've never really came across a bad review of dmt, and I'm not saying this is at all, but this, this makes you really reeeally consider it, totally. Not just the, ooo, how crazy is this stuff going to be, the, how will this affect my mind in total, not just as I'm consuming, but after, when the affects wear off, will I still be the same person? Will this re-wire my head, the right way? the wrong way? Will this short circuit some part of my brain out that I need to be able to stay grounded in this 'real' world, we call home?

I don't think this is a deterant at all, it's more of a, stop, and think about this again, but for real this time, sort of approach.
I loved your posts more than anybody elses, vivon. And, that's not to say that any of the other posts were bad, just yours, made me think about things a little bit more. A little harder. A little.. different(er).

I can't wait til I get over this cold..

And on a lighter note:

A true ode to beneficent elitism and exclusivity in all its glory...



How does it feel to be

One of the BEAUTIFUL PEOPLE?

I know within my heart that I am ready for DMT even though Damon thinks I'm not. DMT is for me I can't wait to try it.

I'm sorry but I find your use of the word "traumatic" to be a bit negative. Although the experience may be "other-worldly", my excursions to date have been nothing but wonderful. A beautiful, comforting place.

if you have to say that....

just wait...it'll come....maybe not tommorrow, a month from now, a year.. but when it does you'll understand the sincerity in what alot of vetted members say here including Vovin regarding this experience..or moreso...the higher dosage - all in a hit or two - type experiences.

And not just even that, it's literally like a combination lock, and each person is uniquely different in the combination. The combination being your current stage in mental/spiritual evolution mixed with the utmost sincere of feelings and a prime environment. In my eyes..those are always in a constant state of flux, especially the mental side of it......but when they all line up and you happen to just load up a 'bit' too much thinking "oooo it'll be ok"........hahaha......yeah.

On a quick side note-

It literally took me over two years of using dmt and hundreds of experiences to finally 'one day' have an experience that was absolutely nothing like dmt.....NOTHING LIKE DMT. Complacency will do that to ya.

There's a huge difference between having powerful experiences and powerful experiences that strike the right set of chords for that individual for them to 'understand'.

I agree - the word "traumatic" sounds a little negative.

I personally had ... I would say ... mostly "wonderful" experiences on DMT, never a "traumatic" one. At the same time I don´t think that a DMT experience can be "traumatic" really. Yet I think that it is not too difficult to get traumatized by a deep journey.

My ego gets traumatized almost each time I launch

Never did i ever inhale smoked dimethyltryptamine crystals
but mushrooms have taught me the way to go is nice and easy,and no hurry.
Dmt crystals sounds like hurry to me,a rushing into the mystery with a snap of the fingers.
So i assume dmt is a direct product of the hurrying times we are living in.
A quick fix to enter no- time.
For modern shamans who are in a rush to get connected to a realm that doesnt have issues with time.....Dmt...yes,a helmet should be present at every session.

I respectfully disagree that DMT is a rush to the infinite. Try going as 'far' as DMT takes you with acid or mushrooms, and it's going to be rough. With DMT you can 'enter hypserspace' without being blown to pieces. Some people liken it to being blown to pieces, but I hope folks know what I mean when I say DMT is not the same as just taking a big dose of mushrooms, its the least stressful way to enter the deep subconscious world. It can certainly be stressful sometimes, but it's just different. Low doses are something to consider as well. It is a quick way to enter timelessness though, without being knocked dizzy and stuck there for hours.

Im just being a little envious that i never actually tried smoking dmt.
But i would like to one day,with some harmala tea first.