Thanks brother, thank you for your post. I am quoting you because, out of my own doing I have created a misunderstanding as to what I actually want to see happen.

I am a person who is not very good at getting the proper wording out. I dont always represent myself well with words. idt, your post has helped me see that there are prolly allot of you out there that are thinking WTF Ice House!

I dont want to grow our numbers in a fasion that is destructive. I dont want to go MAINSTREAM with it. I want the opposite I want to go underground. I actually like the EU, but not fo the Worl Wide Web.

What prompted me to start this post is that, I or we have no idea who all of these people are that are accessing the nexus. We all acknowlege that LEO is present at some level on this web site. That in it self should be reason enough to limit access.

Instead of all our eggs being in one basket with the new EU and the nexus with the pimp bling banners, I would like to see the web site way less accessible to the entire world. I would like to see experiencd responsible individuals recruiting and teaching and mentoring.
I would love to see all the bling go away. I'd like to see everything with a DOS look to it. Like the old DMT World. Who are we competing with? Ourselves?

I think that my suggestion would grow our numbers much slower than the speed the nexus is growing now. I believe that we would get better more responsible members. Most of our members will never even read this post. They dont care. Of the few who do, an even smaller ammount will actually go out and E.O.T.O.

I dont like the diretion the website is going in because of the fact that it attracts allot of irresponsible fools who are looking to profit and who are just looking for another thrill ride. When fools make mistakes and get in trouble all of the fingers point towards the nexus. When SWIM selects a candidate for apprenticeship the chances of anything goining wrong and causing a backlash directed at the nexus is nil.

I dont want to wage war against the values of society. The nexus does that already. I want the exact oposite. I want to take this underground. I want the nexus to exist more for the wiki. I would be happy if general chat went away all together.

I learned to extract without chat many of us did. We are giving LEO way too much info on how we operate. We are giving way too many irresponsible people some very powerful information.

Ive said enough. I hope this clarifies my position a bit.

I'm sorry if some of you dont like what I have said about what I would like to see happen to our beloveed web site.

To sum it up I would like to see hand picked members in the future.

The people out there who are on a mission and who are truely searching with good intention to find the molecule will find it.

Many of us here are good examples of that.

IH

I understand your ideas IH but how would the hand picking of members work?

If this site wasn't open for all I'm pretty sure I would not have been able to join. I am part of no kind of tribe, I have never in my life (15 years of substance use) met anyone who uses DMT and I have a feeling I never will. So if you had to be introduced by someone then that's not gonna happen for many people.

If membership was through some kind of online means then it is pretty easy for any LEO to join.

I really like the EOTO and I have done this once and my "apprentice" has also passed on the information to another.

(On a side note, is there a way to download the wiki? I think I remember reading you could but I don't remember where I read it.)

Several thoughts.
First is that the apprenticeship program has always been in action. I have overseen this many many times. At a certain point in your own evolution you meet someone and feel the need to mentor them based on their own interest.

Second, I have seen this whole thing go full circle like ten times. Plant X is unheard of, people find it, mass produce it, stupid kid gets caught doing something stupid, plant gets watched, plant gets outlawed, etc.
Sadly, I fear I helped with Salvia divinorum. The plant was unheard of other than the Hoffman/Wasson report, we got a few clones back when your couldn't even find a place to buy leaf. I mass produced the plant, even selling thousands of cuttings to a plantation that I knew was going into business to make extracts. My bad. End result is apparent today. I learned my lesson, profiting on such things to pay for the light bill isn't worth the negative energy... I moved on.

Dmt is different tho. Making Mimosa illegal may very well be the best thing in the movement. Not saying I ever wish to see a plant being made illegal, but it would certainly require more dedication to produce the chemical. Please don't misquote me or misunderstand me on that.
At the moment Mimosa makes it too fast, too easy.
Listen, in 97 when I first tried D in smoked form there was no such thing as Mimosa hostilis rootbark, it was mearly a footnote in Johnathon Ott's book. I probably used D or Pharma 40-50 times before I ever found a place to buy mimosa rootbark from. To be honest, I labored through that pound of bark, eating it 15grams at a time. I disliked it on account of the taste (I was very ignorant to extractions, tannins etc).

When I started my farm, it was partially because I needed a greenhouse in order to produce plant material I needed. I was sickened by the budding "ayahuasca trade" that was pulling plant material from the forest as opposed to a farm. I began mass producing these plants, I sold about 60 different D containing plants, and many that were suspected to contain it (even rarities that were stupid simple to grow like Alternanthera lehmanii and Justica pectoralis). The research going into them was awesome! People were reporting their findings to the Entheogen Review and progress was being made on many many plant species.
Just as I was leaving the scene for a bit cheap Mimosa rootbark became available and people came up with many simple, foolproof teks for producing the desired result. When I came back I was simply blown away with how many advances have been made.
Looking back tho, it is a true travesty in a way... it became simple and reliable to extract, but the scope was limited to either imported jungle plants or Mhrb. All research into other plants died, especially the plants that survived well in more northerly climates.
I've heard this "ohh no, Mhrb is gonna die, we are all gonna be D-free for ever." Seriously? that is the extent of your devotion? If so, then yes... you will be d-free.

"in The Age Of The Exit,
are The Moving Cartoons
bringing You Right Along
helping You... Living On
my Special...And Took Me Out Alone
he Showed Me A Level,
i'm Talking On My Own
so Don't Be Taken By What I Say,
if Its Too Rigid Just Go Away,
you're Never Really Gone,
only Livin On...
if You Miss My Watching,
sometimes I'm Catching All I Can,
in The Steady Watching,
of The Prophet's Plan.
but me, I'm livin on" -tommy hall

@3rdI

Question-


Answer-
Thats for us to figure out. Maybe the nexus establishes some guidwlines on how a person should make that decision, I dont know. TBD at a later date.

Question/statement


Answer-
I am not for shutting down the nexus, and BTW, Thats not my decision to make. I am not the owner operator. I am also not telling Trav to do that. I am just thinking out loud, jotting down some notes, and offering suggestions. I want the nexus wiki to be there for people who truely need and are searching for the info. If this site wasnt open for all I wouldnt have been able to join either.

Statement-


Comment-
True. I agree. Hence the E.O.T.O. program. How many cops are going to go out and find aprentices? LOL

Statement-


Comment- Thank You Brother! Thanks for caring and sharing. Proof positive that this idea may possibly work.

Question-


Answer-LOL YES INDEED! But you shouldnt ask an old knucklehead like me, because I would say to highlite everything on the page you want a copy of and hit CTL/C and then establish a note pad doccument and hit CTL/V. Old DOS commands,lol.

@ringworm


I agree with you about the action that is being taken by customs and LEO against MHRB. I also believe that banning it is the best thing to ever happen to us.

We now have some highly intelligent wonderful people working around the clock to develop alternative options, ie grasses. IMO LEO would have had way less problems if they would have jusst allowed the bark to go through. Better yet tax the hell out of it. Left with no alternative DMT users are planting DMT containing grass everywhere.

Rinworm, thank you for your efforts with regards to E.O.T.O.

The problem I have with this is limiting knowledge to others. How is it our right to tell people what info they can have. OK maybe LEO is here maybe not. No one knows for sure. Hand picking members really? Now it seems like with this idea we would become like the DMT secret order or some type of secret society of dmt alchemists. This is knowledge that everyone should have free access to just like any type of info. I dont think paranoia is the right motivator for this type of site. Also to use the Shroomery as an example. They have way more members and traffic than this site,yet you dont see a nationwide outlawing of spores.

I am not for limiting knowledge to others.

I am all for leaving the wiki out there accessable to those who search for it.

When I say hand picking members I am speaking of E.O.T.O. I am not saying The nexus should hand pick members, I am saying WE should hand pick our members.

You are correct, I have no right to dictate what information they can and cant have. I am not attempting to do this. I just want to get rid of some of the riff raff.

What got me going on this topic is the fact that we have sooooo many new members who come to the nexus and do not contribute. They post a minimum ammount of posts, just enough to get vetted and then they lurk in chat and they become trusted members of the community. They do this by talking a good talk. I am extremely suspicious of these people.

Chems dont get their little flask by lurking in chat and bullshitting their way into it. They earn it by posting and proving that they are worthy and that they are who they say they are. They get the flask by contributing.

The new look of the nexus is very nice, I actually like it, but there is, IMO a negative side to it.

Nothing wrong with a little paranoia. I am more than a little paranoid and for good reason.

as for the shroomery,,,,,,, I am an inactive member who was a big contibutor for allot of years under the username Ice House Shaman. I think what sets the shroomery apart is the fact that only about one third of their postings/content, or less prolly, is actually about growing magic mushrooms. There is allot of info on growing medicinal and edibles so there is more of a grey area there. I dont see the grey area here on the nexus. this web site is mostly about DMT, period. Yea we are cultivating a shroomery style model and with time it may look better on the surface. The community at the Shroomery outside of the hunting gathering and growing of fungus is questionable at best. Ever check out the Off Topic Forum there? Ever try and post in it? LOL go ahead.
Its a trash heap full of teenage morons who post all day about the most vile disgusting material they can find.

?

But two posts ago you just said:



Making the entire site, save the wiki, virtually inaccessible to the entire world (save some handpicked members) is by definition limiting knowledge to others.

I don't have time to reply in full right now, so i'll stop by later

I would like the wiki available to anyone in the world who searchs it out.

My issue is with the other part of the web site that contains the chat and community forums. My issues with the aspect of limmiting access to that or getting rid of it isnt denying anyone any rights that they have.

I feel that nexus is something that was created as a good idea with great intentions. The membership explosion and the growth of different aspects of the site have added a new dimension to the website that is detrimental to the high standards that this web site was built upon.

There are loads of web sites out there that limit membership or establish much more stingent rules or qualifications a person must have before he or she is allowed access to that site. That is not censorship. Its membership.

lol, maybe the problem with the nexus is me? or maybe my problem with the nexus is me. I havent ruled that out.

Maybe there is no problem at all.

Maybe I shouldnt have brought this up at all.

This topic is just something that has been on my mind for a while now. I have spoken verbally with several members who have voiced many of the same concerns, This is NOT to say that I am speaking on anyones behalf, because I am not.



universecannon thanks for pointing this out. You are helping me to define better what it is I am attempting to say, thanks.

sicerely,

IH

I also have had this thought. I dont think anything bad is happeneing, yet... But i have noticed that more people since I have joined, havent done as much research, are not in the same mindset as the majority of the common members posting, and a lot of people just asking questions that have been answered a million times.

I did 2 years which is a lot IMO. I dont think that should be expected, but a couple weeks? That doesnt seem enough.

The thing is there are a couple different ways to do this.

Torrent site. Some are public some are private. The private ones require that you recieve an invitation to be able to become a member. This keeps the community slow growing, and tight. Now i dont really think this is the right thing to do but there is going to be a point when it will be needed, in order to keep this community together.

If we limit some info we are going to slow down the rate at which people join. I dont think thats so much the issue. I see the problem, that can happen, would be the type of people that we are attracting.

We do attract a wide audience. With the current rules, we can weed out those that are not in the same mindset, but only to posting. We are still contributing this info in a bad way to bad people.

Kind of like they say if you buy pot your funding Al queda. Well what we are doing is allowing good and bad people easy access to info on DMT. Now I am not for limiting of info, but I do think that eventually it will be needed.

This is travellers baby, I think what is important is what does he want the future of the nexus to be? And what do you want it to be?

No its not. Its making it less in view to the random googler. It requires that if you type "DMT Extraction" instead of seeing a link to the nexus you wont. I think his idea is to keep ANYONE from using the info on the nexus without taking the time to research more and STUMBLE upon this community.

A crackhead looking to make money can google "growing mushrooms" or "DMT extraction" and then go do those things and get busted making it look bad. Less offensive people will actually post on this site, only a few times, in order to get the help they need and not contribute anything to the site.

This is my thought. I am assuming this is what Ice House was getting at.

mew has been considering a contingency plan as well.

1. flash drives with archived wiki and updated threads
- we need to establish a method of synching flash drives/ipods/external hds to most recent post/update wiki. this is going to need to be developed. at the very least, mew has a computer entirely dedicated to the preservation of the knowledge shared here. he is still working to diligently update it often, just in case there is no more nexus.

2. apprentices are a must, many of us came here without one, many had one, regardless, one cannot be here too long without starting to share the knowledge with an individual in real life (as well as here) so that they may in turn repeat this cycle

3. alternate forms of medicine/ sustainable entheogenic gardens. to ensure the medicine is the teacher and we as nexians are to introduce one to the medicine, we need to have access to our entheogens. many are unstoppable (mushrooms for example, there will always be amanitas and psilocybes) this may be enough, but a greater variety yields a greater opportunity for expansion. such is nature. grow your entheogens instead of purchasing them online. mew has a farm he participates in, please start planting the medicines.

4. clandestine technique. to remain innocent even under investigation is a nexians greatest armor. extractions and supplies need to be well hidden and disguised. they need to remain separate from things that can be detected by dogs or infrared sensors so that if the worst happens, persecution will be limited.

5. each and every one of us needs to start preparing NOW.



thank you ice house for wording what my mind had yet to form

Thanks mew, thanks for the encouragement. All your points are spot on, most of all 3. Me loves a great garden.

i just finished backing up the wiki and other entheogens subforum. i have a video ipod im putting them all onto for mobile use

ok so the wiki is massive, there are so many sub categories, organizing them on my computer has taken the last 2 hours and im still not done

im nowhere close to having this whole site backed up... ill keep going at it though!

Better still – use a scraper (whether there’s protection against this on the server, or if Traveler is happy with this on his server I can’t answer though. I leave a big wait time between files to minimise my use of resources as much as possible if I do do this to a site.).

HTTrack http://www.httrack.com/ (Win/Linux/OSX/BSD/Unix)
Site Sucker http://www.sitesucker.us/ (OS X)

Please feel free to delete this post if this is not acceptable!

Edit
It would probably be better and less potentially problematic if there could be some kind of organisation to this and one user was to do a backup of the wiki every so often and upload it to torrent sites and file lockers.

the wiki was compiled/uploaded to the Shroomery back when we were DDoS'd. If you just keep it alphabetical, there's no extra organization needed

EOTO

I'm no expert on Shmanism, history, or technology, but it seems that the EOTO concept has preserved Shamanisn in it's various forms for 20,000+ years and very possibly much, much longer. I haven't seen any digital recording media with that kind of proven track record so far. Even though I'm big fan of technology, an organic solution seems more appropriate in my mind.

Uuugh! This thread is so frustrating, so challenging, and so necessary on every level. I must first say thank you to IH for kicking it off. I undeniably believe that a thread such as this is something that has been needed for a long time. I have a lot to theorize about here, but since it's 3:30am my time I'll make this short, and return later.

I struggle with this discussion because I really, truly do not believe there is a right answer here. We are philosophizing, and philosophy is extremely difficult to argue over text. There are so many good points throughout this entire thread. Of all the differing opinions and beliefs in the foregoing comments, the important thing to me is one commonality. It is clear that everyone who took the time to participate in thread so far deeply cares about the preservation AND expansion of our beloved technology (Spice).

If I'm not mistaken, what we all want, at the core and most fundamental level, is for "those in the world who have the capacity and desire to appreciate the Spice for what it has to offer, get the opportunity to do so". Simple enough right? I will call this my "Maxim #1" (my hope is that we'll add more maxims / principals, whatever we wish to call them going forward).

Ok, so we have our hands full for sure. I don't think the Nexus is the answer to reaching Maxim #1, but I do believe it can provide the centralized communication exchange point for those driving toward the maxim(s).

I'm dozing off now, and my wife and my dogs are all hinting that I "just come to bed" for the evening, so I'm going to have to come back and add more later. I do have to say one thing however:
I don't understand why we require new members to prove themselves prior to gaining access / privileges to specific areas of the site, yet anyone without an account can navigate directly to the wiki to access some of our most precious information. I do understand Trav's reasoning behind much of this, but I'm still not certain I understand the division of policies fully.

Anyhow, I will add more substance later. I just wanted to get some ideas puked out while they were fresh in my head. So many great quotes from the posts above, but I'll have to make my comments on those later. Good night for now all!

Peace,
-idt

I couldn't agree more with this concern as we have spoken about it in great length the other day. We ask users to prove themselves responsible enough to be able to post WORDS on a forum but give full access to making dmt to anyone. Imo we are probably a main reason so much dmt is being sold and bought. I get why trav wants it this was but I now disagree. This open wiki policy is ensuring denied access to mhrb as more people get into buying and selling dmt and more busts occur.

Its strange that we limit access to new users to make sure they understand rules like not discussing buying and selling dmt but on the other hand don't ask for any evidence to show their intentions are responsible enough to have the knowledge of making the same substance. Something is wrong here.