I don't agree with the victim blaming concept. I would agree if us citizens couldn't vote, protest, or speak freely. When I say we all bear responsibility for our govt... I don't mean that jack smith of Boise, Idaho is to blame for bad policy...I mean both he and I are complicit in continuing these bad things by not protesting, speaking out against, or actually doing something about them. Ok... So as I write this.... I can see how you mean that coming from one direction Snoz, but I still feel that as a citizenry we have the responsibility to change bad government. I'm not sure if you're from the US or not, but if youre aware of what people have been voting on/for in the last 10...20...30? Years.... One might conclude that we've gotten good at voting against our own best interest and that is, without a doubt, our own doing.

As far as internal assassination and bullying... Yes... That makes it obviously harder to change the course but to we give because it's too difficult to try? Resistance is not futile.

Let me also say... I totally appreciate being able to have good discussion on things whether we agree or not... Thanks all!
Much Peace & Respect

Whenever i see these threads i'm always reminded of bob wilson talking about primates and domesticated primates (humans)

primates mark their territory with excretions. domesticated primates mark their territory with (ink) excretions on paper

In the last 30 years, I would posit both parties have been entirely in the pockets of big money/corporations/"special interests". I would also posit that free speech and the right to "protest freely" do not exist. Yes, you are not shot outright for speaking/protesting (although it happened to many folks who were part of the civil rights movement a mere 40 years ago)...instead you are held at gun point while agents of the state attempt to intimidate you and your fellow unarmed protesters. Or arrested for non-speech-related offenses, only to have the charges dropped because they were merely a facade to arrest you for your speech.

You are challenged for your "permit" to march...you are banned from assembling within a certain distance from people who are protected by the secret service...and this is assuming you have enough privilege to even step out the door without fear of State violence or retaliation. You seem to be talking abstractly about ideals and values with little attention to what is actually going on in the US. When you talk about how difficult it is to try and make statements like "Resistance is not futile" I find myself seriously wondering what you have resisted and what the outcome was. I hope that doesn't sound too harsh...obviously we have to resist...but we are being crushed on every front, from Fracking to Food to Freedom and beyond. This is a reality...to talk in the abstract does a disservice to the atrocities we are witnessing daily.

Look at the polls...America is an amazingly well-polled country. The populace at large disagrees with an insane amount of public policy. Look at the recent wars or healthcare. The vast majority of Americans have opposed both wars and been in favor of a single-payer healthcare option...however these desires don't even come close to the bargaining table because none of the politicians' corporate sponsors want to see an end to the profits of the Military Industrial Complex or privatized healthcare (to say nothing of the Prison Industrial Complex and the absurd policies that keep it in place).

We live under the PATRIOT ACT and numerous other bills that strip away our basic human rights. Protesting in the proscribed manner doesn't change anything...as to voting...Emma Goldman said, "If voting changed anything, they'd make it illegal." Look at the amount of money spent on campaigns over the past 40 years…it has become increasingly easy to predict winners based on campaign finances. Look at super PACS and their affiliated agencies and explain to me how voting could change anything in this country.

We as the citizenry DO have the responsibility to attempt to change things, but we as the citizenry ARE actively being victimized; some of us are just privileged enough to bear less of the brunt of it than others. Look at the incarceration rates of Blacks and Latinos...while you're at it, look at employment rates, poverty rates and % of populace in military service. Look at the average wages of women compared to men of equal or lesser qualifications (and a whole host of other things, ranging from reproductive rights to rape laws and beyond).

I get that this is rambling all over the place and I'm sorry for that, there's just not enough room to express everything that comes to mind right now, but I’ve posted extensively on this theme in a myriad of threads. Americans are being abused by the State, plain and simple. I've experienced it firsthand...repeatedly.

Well put... And good points made.

I'm not sure I understand what listing my personal protest/resistance record or lack thereof would accomplish.

The situation is dire and complicated, I agree.

I guess I just won't ever feel like a victim this way.

Yea, I felt bad after posting that (I had the ride home to stew in my discomfort/embarrassment) ...it just came out in response to what I perceived to be a lot of abstraction, disconnected from reality. Sorry

Is this what you actually think?

Well, it is a factual part of early american history..actaully the earliest part of the white mans history here. You cant really debate this. It is the same with Canada..the RCMP origionally planned on eliminating the native americans..I studied anthropology they did not even hide this fact in the classroom at college. RCMP officers gave blankets to native children infected with tuberculosis.

Is it not the case?

Did George Washington not talk about how, as a result of the expansion of the Europeans' settlements, the savage Indian would go the same way as the coyote (forced off the land/hunted to the point of severely diminished populations)?

Was Sally Hemmings (and her 645,000 fellow American slaves and the millions of intended slaves who died on the overseas journey) a figment of my imagination?

This country was founded on stolen land by white men who kept slaves and slaughtered the indigenous people while writing loftily-worded manifestos on "Liberty" and "Freedom."

Imo
Actions > Words
Always.

Well said, my erudite and always eloquent young friend. To pretend any different is to wallow in naive fantasy and convenient revisionist history.

I mentioned principles, not actions.
The original concepts still hold as much merit today as they did at that time.
Mind you, speaking about "all men being created equal" and "throwing off English oppression" while owning slaves is an obvious error.

Another fine example is Jesus vs modern Christians. Lofty ideals and great theory with a horrible practice. You certainly wouldn't confuse Jesus with the Vatican, would you?

Either way, I'm sticking to my guns. The original principles were good ones. We would be a great nation if we actually adhered to 75% of them.
So not disagreeing with you Snozz, just disagreeing with what you are trying to disagree about (if that makes sense).

The grouping together of people based on where they live and their belief system ect. Is an age old method designed by hunter gatherers. People with like minds work well together in a hunter gatherer setting.

This said, the current methods will not work much longer. People are slowly becoming more evolved socially. The Internet is increasing the speed of our final stage of social gathering. I have learned over the last 10 years that I no longer share the "American" way of thinking. I think more outside the box. The American way was a good idea back when the declaration of independence was written. But now I share more "worldly" views now. Most Americans don't have any clue as to what else is going on in the world from the pov of other people.

I don't see lines dividing people into segregate associations as logical means of dealing with worldly problems. I see that the rest of the worlds people feel the same as I do. I see that the people of this world all want the same things generally. To say that being born in one place makes you a certain thing just doesn't work any more.

I was born in America. I have lived in America all my life. But I have also lived on planet earth all my life. America the greatest country? Why? Because we are major shareholders in the rest of the worlds economy? Because our army is powerful and almost no one can compete? Because we believe in freedom and liberty?

Because we have triumphed over our problems and come a long way? Those things matter not in this day in age.

This country I live in is just a bunch of immigrants that fled servitude in other countries. No matter what town, or state, or providence, or country, or continent you live there are different problems. Some worse than others.

I don't see myself as an American, cause to say that would be to separate myself from others around the world.

The country you live in does not make you who you are. America is just a plot of soil In the middle of the ocean. I care not to be proud of it. I am proud of my fellow species. The human.

^ I agree with that. The religion analogy works..

america(and canada is a part of america) is what it is today. The people with any origional plans are long dead.

I think it was Ken Kesey that said that what the Pranksters were doing was more in line with living the american dream than what the rest of society was doing.

No worries at all... Apology accepted and smile returned. Your point about abstraction was not unfounded.

I think these statements are very unfair and in fact wrong. Those pics you refer to made a huge impact and millions of Americans were outraged. Conservatives as well as liberals. To say that MOST Americans are ok with things like fratricide, war, and torture is offensive and shows you dont know from personal experience. The fact is we are a very divided country. Right in half so to say things like "most Americans" is just plain wrong and unfair to those doing their best to change the governments actions.
We are far from perfect but things like the re election of G.W are no where near as black and white as your thinking. If that what your basing your "MOST Americans" comments on your dead wrong.
I dont care if people hate america. Im not a huge fan myself and I loath this government and its policy's but im tired of hearing people say shit like Most Americans support these actions cuz it just aint true.

Jamie: I'm glad to of met another earthling!

The whole "hate America" thing is very confusing to me. To blame any one citizen for things that happen due to its dictators is unfortunate. I get first hand experience on how corrupt people get when it comes to money working at a fortune 500 company. Omg it's just sad. The managers and up are rotten scumbags. Those are the people they mean when they say "I hate America!" too bad they don't see little 'ol me wishing the government would stop taking so much money out of my paycheck. Wish I didn't get taxed when I work "extra" time. Especially the "mandatory" overtime that if I refuse I lose my job.

Well that ain't me. I DO NOT represent the 1%. I do not believe in seperating people by wealth. The only mechanism of isolation should be social, based on your character you will decide whether people like you or not. You have the ability to change yourself.

I believe IMHO that the biggest factor is that we don't separate politics with wealth. Politics shouldn't be a wealthy job to do. It makes so much money that people get their friends hired in and other things happen to increase the size of government. Why are we broke? Well one reason is a lot of money goes towards paying government jobs!

Anyways, the government doesn't show my view of life as its goals so I don't support it, I am not proud of it, and I can't wait for it to fail.

Great that Americans know all this. Next time think about it before you go to so called democratic election. See the thing is you (meaning general public not you personally) all know this shit and still go and give those bastards vote. Why ?

Well, at least a frightingly large part of the population. America is devided. I´m aware of that. But the re-election of bush is a clear signal. If the amount of americans who are OK with all the wars, who´re even proud of it (until the moment they get shot themselves), would indeed be a vert small minority, george w bush could have never gotten re-elected. But he did, and not with a narrow margin, like with gore (where actually the majority of votes was for gore instead of bush).
When you look at the talk about bradley manning, i don´t get the impression that only a very small minoriy sees him as a traitor. Politicians don't say such things unless they would know for a fact that there is an large electorate that thinks this way.

I know that the things i said are harsh, and that it sounds even stranger when i then even say that i´m against anti-americanism

But i just don´t think you can ignore all of the bad things. If it where true that, like you say, the vast majority of americans has always been against these expeditionary wars, then W bush could not have been re-elected. And bradley manning would not be tortured in a prison cell right now. If even obama says that he aproves of how manning is being treated, than there has to be a large percentage of the people who agrees with that: Obama is a politician. Politicians don't just say something. They only open their mouth when they've gotten the latest polls.

Most people everywhere in the world, do not have very high moral standards. Some people say that all problems in this world are caused by americans, others say that it's the great jewish conspiracy and yet others blame muslims, women or black people. But the real cause of all the wars and misery is very simple and plain for everybody to see: it's the simple people. It's simple people with simple brains and simple thoughts and simple feelings, who make out the majority everywhere. It's their simple, primitive behaviour that get's us into these wars over and over again. It's joe the plumber or whatever his name is, with his simple racism and his simple views about the environment, etc. He's not an american, he's everywhere. He's your neighbour who's always friendly, but wait till you hear him talk about black/white/gay/muslim/jewish/etc. people.

The simple people worshipped hitler and musolini. The simple people don't believe in climate change. The simple people don't care if innocent people get killed in a war: 'you cannot make an ommelet...'

And it's also the simple people who hate americans. I don't hate the simple people. I just see them as what they are 'pigs with hand and feet', primitive minds with a limited power for empathy or ethic's. They'll go wherever group dynamic's will take them. And often group dynamic's will take them straight to hell.

I hear you ringworm...I dunno...I just grapple with the merit of principles when there is so much contradiction. Something just feels wrong somewhere, you know?

Like, yes, I think we can all agree that Freedom and Equality and Liberty are great, but can we say a nation was founded on those principles when the founders merely talked about them as they carried out atrocities?

And yea, it makes sense...it comes down to where you feel those values reside (I think)...in the words or actions. The ideals they talked about were certainly noble...but the contradiction in their actions is too bitter a pill for me to swallow.

I get your religion example...but the founders weren't as "pure" as Jesus, to my mind, so I see your thrust and find myself not altogether turned-off by the sentiment...it just doesn't necessarily work, for me.

I for one am all about a revolution to reinstate the initial principles.
Not all revolutions involve guns either.