The fact that a chemical is synthetic can be somewhat arbitrary. For example, there's a lot of synthesized 5-MeO DMT floating around out there, but it's also endogenous to humans and found in plants as well. Since both synthetic and "natural" 5-MeO DMT can precipitate a mystical experience, I see no reason to draw a distinction in regards to the validity of mystical experience they produce.

''Spiritual'' is just a label, and 'nature' goes together with 'spiritual' more than the word 'synthetic'.

Don't be fooled by these limiting beliefs.

From the science I know, mind-altering substances change brain chemistry allowing you to perceive the world differently (of course not as simple as it sounds, probably some extreme mystical science here).

So 2c-x, DOx, LSD etc will allow you to have ''spiritual'' experiences as long as you allow yourself to.

If we call it a natural process for a mushroom to produce psilocybin as it grows, maybe it's also natural for human beings to mess with chemicals taken from natural process sources and creating something 'synthetic'. who knows

I Place my experiences with DMT and Ketamine the highest these two molecules are direct in their force and have shown my deepest inner self and the reaches of reality.

Synthetic vs Natural is a personal thing
Both are beautiful

I have heard a medicine man say "there are many ways to this place"

Well, like i said, the new substances are just rip off's off the original plant based alkaloids. Fact is that Plants do offer other compounds in the mix as well. Cocaine and Morphine are just purified extracted alkaloids taken from plant material.

It all comes from nature, but the most entheogenic experience will come from boiled up plants and not ingested lab made powders. The only exception being a very purified plant extract like 5 meo dmt and a chemically synthesized version, for example, etc.( which will both be chemically pure and isolated and therefore identicle, etc, etc/ get my drift?)

Also, there is a deeper bond to the nature when working with plants as opposed to a powder from a lab IMO. This is only natural.

I doubt that 2cb or DPT is as curing and beneficial as Aya OR Iboga. People say that Ibogaine hcl, Mescaline hcl, etc, is missing quite a bit of the deep effects.

And Entheogens are ther for more than simply tripping balls.

Way too subjective and arbitrary, christian.

As mentioned, you dont know if a supposed synthetic substance isnt found in nature, just like DMT was first synthesized before being found to be natural. You even open your argument for contradictions when you say extracted and synthetic 5-MeO-DMT both can be entheogenic, so who's to say it's not the same for other substances?

Also, your ideas that purified substance is not at all or less entheogenic is arbitrary and not agreed by shamans either (for example the 2cb african healers I mentioned or the amazonian shaman I worked with that loved DMT freebase). Not that I care what shamans say or not, each one should decide for themselves what is right for them. Personally I find purified mescaline great and not missing anything, for example.

When you say that entheogens are more than for 'tripping balls', you seem to be very judgemental, as if people that use synthetic substances are only looking for that, which is clearly not the case.

Hello Endlessness.

The question i'd like to ask for example is, "Do you think purified Mescaline is great and not missing anything, because you have already tried the plant and there is some association going on there??

Also, how can smoked DMT be as curing and grounding as a caapi based brew. How can a shaman work to cure people with a 10 minute trip??

Whilst i'm sure the Shaman could identify and enjoy DMT, i'm guessing that is in a personal sense rather than for Shamanic uses. I mean, i really doubt that DMT has as much shamanic potential without the harmala, etc, cos without it there's a big part missing that makes for a deeper and more grounded experience.

As for 2cb healers, i'd like to know what they were working with b4 . I doubt it was Iboga.
And what are they treating, simple stress and depression?? I mean MDMA can help with that, but deeper issues perhaps may need deeper compounds,etc.

As for "tripping balls", each to their own i guess. Fun is a great medicine.

I don't understand the question. I've tried purified mescaline, san pedro tea, resin, dried peyote powder and dried san pedro powder. The one I least appreciated was the san pedro powder, which in theory would be the most 'full spectrum'. The others, all are great in their own way.

I dont know what 'association' you mean, I have no pre-judgement regarding full brews or purified extracts, I consume good quality products that I grow/extract myself or that come from close friends and I will try to learn from all of them. I have my preferences, but those stem from my own experiences, not from some arbitrary division of what's 'natural or not', what shamans use or what somebody told me.



This comparison is not valid because caapi has a whole set of different substances that arent DMT. Anyways a shaman doesnt only "cure" people, that's a small part of the whole thing, and we're not talking about "cure", we're talking about spiritual use.



"shamanic potential" ? What does that even mean? We're talking about spiritual/entheogenic use here, and this is a personal thing, so who's to say what substance has more or less potential?

As another example that is against your opinion, Maria Sabina, world famous shaman, ingested purified psilocybin synthesized by Albert Hofmann and said that it was equivalent to mushrooms. She was very happy she didn't have to wait for season. She even directly said "the mushroom spirit is there". Are you gonna say she was wrong?



What does it matter what they were working with? See, you are making your own arbitrary classification of what's better or worse entheogen based on your experiences and preconceptions, and then trying to project that on others. How about you accept that this is for you, and not necessarily for others?

My point being that if you have already opened the doors of perception with Cactus, then similar compounds ie, Mescaline hcl may easily re open them to a similar degree. However perhaps if you never tried cactus first you may or may not have had such a depth of experience. Do you catch my drift? Certainly a point worth considering i guess ?



Again, Endlessness, once the path has been trodden by the Plant teacher, it's much easier for it's student, or even imposter, to follow in it's footsteps!




NO! I was merely suggesting other possibilities. Kindly do not rush to judge me please and assume that i'm projecting onto others. I believe that Synthetic compounds can be medicinal, however i question isolated compounds and prefer to believe that the naturally "whole" plant version is usually superior, because of other stuff in the mix. I am not alone in this view, and although i'm happy if you disagree, that does not mean that i will change my stance on this viewpoint simply to appease others.

A friend of mine says the 2CB is too "analog" and not as deep of an experience as LSD. While I somewhat agree with him, I've had amazing revelations on both, and I don't think it truly matters in the end WHAT psychedelic you are consuming. More powerful psy's may lend themselves to more incredible/potent visions and experiences, but I think the individual has as much capacity to learn from a 100 microgram hit of LSD as it has 100 mg base of Spice.

My 2 cents.

- Electric

A-ha, I hadn't understood it before. It is indeed an interesting point. But then it leads to two thoughts:

1- if you've had the natural before, then you can use 'synthetic/isolated/purified' substance with just as much benefit

and

2- If you have never had the natural version before, you don't know what it is like so the synthetic can still be perfectly entheogenic spiritual.

And therefore it's irrelevant if it's synthetic/extracted, as long as you find it good for you.

No?



See, that's what I mean. It is just your belief, and/or your experience, but you cannot say it is so for others. I don't think you're wrong, I just think you can only speak for yourself. It doesn't matter if you're alone or not in this (that would be a fallacious argument anyways), what matters is that you choose what you feel is good for your own spiritual search, while others will do what they feel is good spiritually for them.

That would be akin to someone judging you for using any drug (including ayahuasca or iboga) and saying that the "natural" way would be to have a spiritual experience while sober. Wouldn't you think anybody saying this should just keep it to themselves and let you take whatever you want and feel is good for your own development, instead of them generalizing that their beliefs are 'right' and that you should do as them otherwise you're not doing it as its meant to be?


Lastly, remember ayahuasca is already an extraction, NOT full-spectrum because you are throwing your plant away with substances that are not water-soluble. If you want to start doing the full-spectrum way, better start chewing on that caapi like some indigenous people do (and possibly like the original way was). Otherwise it's just as arbitrary that you think you can extract up to a certain amount and not any further. Did you consider you might be losing some caapi spirit when you throw away the plant material?

Well, yes and no. I really think the full spectrum would be a wiser choice given the option, but what will do will do, i guess.



NO, not after i really gave the Caapi a good pulverizing and made sure that as many fibres as possible were well hammered. I boiled and i boiled, and i boiled untill no more goodies came out. But next time i get the chance i'll be Caapi munching the fresh stuff!

Maybe it has little to do with the substance itself and a lot more to do with what is inside of all of us and our relationship with how we get there. DMT is only one way to get there.

I had a judgemental attitude towards synthetics but not anymore. You are the universe and synthetics act as a catalyst to open you up to yourself. That is what I love about synthetics, you don't pray to a plant god, you have to put trust in yourself. Although I must say that the natural entheogens tend to give you more cushioning support and can be more healthy.

Some of my experiences with 4-aco-dmt/mxe, rank up there with any organic entheogenic experience.

4 ACO DMT is pretty much near damn DMT anyway, so i guess that doesn't really count. Just like synthesized DMT compared to pure white DMT is pretty much the exact same thing chemically. Try making Caapi from scratch in a lab!

Yuppp

This is an incongruent analogy. Both 4 ACO DMT and DMT are chemicals that can be synthesized. Caapi is not a chemical. It's not like they're synthesizing mimosa or chacruna or something.

I think it is all on a case by case basis.

For some people they just aren't going to find the spirituality that they seek, through synthetic chemicals. This may be because their personality need the "full spectrum" trip.

But their are also those who are opposite, the "full spectrum" may leave them feeling confused and sick, where a single purified substance allows them to delve deeper into their mind.

To each their own. I feel less of an "entheogenic signature" when working with isolated compounds than I do with plants, but but that doesn't mean better or worse.

Just different.