I agree with this definition.

I think in the future when asking somones opinion on something THEIR definition should be noted. Other wise we keep defining things in our own way and never really come to an actual answer.

When you are unconscious you are not aware, of yourself or others. When you become conscious you are then aware. i apply this to defining things that are conscious.

Jamie, Prof Nutt said that Psilocybin actually shut down a part of the brain that is overstimulated in depressed people. I don't think he noticed that it actively engaged other parts of their brain. However that was just Psilocybin. Maybe more studies into the functioning of the brain will reveal more plausible explanations for elf visions to those that have participated in the spirit molecule.



I dig this explanation, Eliyahu!

I think you have summed up the need for what Terence McKenna described as the "felt prescence of experience", or something. It's no good reading other peoples trip reports, yes they are interesting, but we are all on different paths and need to create our own experiences and not live off those of others!

Questioning visions of elves and jaguars might interest some, but might irritate others. What is interesting is how Ayahuasca can for example generate visions of such things in people in all parts of the world where there are no such creatures. Images of Anacondas in France or England..Why don't they see local creatures???... There's definately some plant intelligence going on there. Tarantulas, Boas, Anacondas, Jaguars, are animals from the Jungle. Seeing is believing as they say. Most of us believe in what we see, and some question, and some doubt. Such is human nature.

Each person must seek their own path in life, and hopefully they will recieve the knowledge that is for them. What they choose to do with that knowledge is for them to decide, and should not be left for others to interpret. I guess people need to have more trust in their mindsets.

Heres an excellent piece, which I reckon both sides in the tos and fros above earlier in the thread should get some benefit from.A 'refresher' for some, and an intriguing take on the question "What is consciousness?" for others.




http://www.quantumconsci...consciousness.html#roger

Easier reading for those who know some physics.

^ yea i've spent quite some time at that site before. Very interesting stuff!

This whole dark matter, collective unconscious, teeming nexus of human souls etc thing... It's just silly. People are going to chase fantastic explanations for their experience, they always have (every other mythology ever, etc.)... other people are going to try and shoot them down and say the experience is meaningless because it's so fantastical. C'est la vie. Personally this guy only bothers me as much as Strassman with his "dark matter" BS.

Besides, it's pretty friggin stupid to be arguing the technical points of a strong drug trip when we don't know ourselves, our minds and bodies, and the mechanisms behind such intense hallucination anyway. These are the things to look into before assuming anything on the subject of the validity of visions... otherwise you're just shooting in the ark and asking to be made a fool.

Furthermore... We all should damn well know what the real important stuff is here. Authors and Doctors chasing hallucinations like a bunch of Honeymooners just wastes time and effort... and makes us ALL look like a bunch of idiots arguing over how crazy we actually are.

Sigh....it depends who you're talking to, sometimes.

Once, I was talking with my girlfriend. Smart chick. She has a degree in science stuff. She gets going on quantum talk, and it's all cool and stuff, but it goes on for awhile. And the point she's driving to, oh golly, this ones going blow yer socks off fellas, get ready! It was some sort of quantum model, "proving" that everything is conscious. Or that consciousness is the fundemental state of stuff, like matter, energy, consciousness. You know the type of talk I mean.

Wowee zowee, I told her. Animism. You just spent like an hour describing...animism. Science is totally fun sometimes, but spare me the hours long rant to tell me nothing new. Yup, stuff is conscious. Shamans the world over have always said that.


My 2-bits. No offense intended towards other view points.

You know....I haven't read trialogues at the edge of the west since 1999 when I first got it, but I think it was that book where someone offered a definition of consciousness that I liked. Basically they said that a hallmark of consciousness would be chemical reactions going off. Stasis looks less conscious.

Then again, pluto may seem dead....but in the long run, it's a part of a much larger chemical proccess, our solar system.

Looking at this thread makes me sad. People are throwing bad things at each other, forgetting how to have a good debate, and somehow a lot of people also forget to keep their critical thinking alive.

I will keep this thread locked for now.


The Traveler