I would like to suggest a new topic for the forums. How about sharing parenting advice, experience, and questions as we traverse what may be "undiscovered country". Perhaps many of the folks on here are young and without children, but I think that having a discussion about how we pass our values, skills, and beliefs on to the next generation is an extremely important thing. Right now, my wife and I are involved in the discussion of how much should the kids know, and at what age do we "come clean" and offer to let them in on what we are about.

we already did have a thread about it

of course after 10 minutes of searching I can't find it.

for us it's simple. Why should I "come clean" ??? That makes no sense. My kids will at some point realize that I make weird teas, lock myself in my room late at night. They'll also notice that I listen to music that has pretty obvious content. If they do not realize who/what I am, they are not looking for it and they can live happily in ignorance of this. I would never encourage anyone to experience the other worlds, this is a highly personal choice. If the kids intend to go there, I will notice and give all the support in anyway possible.

For the children, I choose to not preach, I simply live the life on the path... everyday is a chance to share the teaching through life.
Share the light, live the love each thought form returns.

I think maybe "come clean" was not the best phraseology. I don't mean that we have to admit wrongdoing to our kids, but tell them what we value and inform them that the wider culture not only does NOT value that thing, but that it actively fights against those values.

I think it does make sense to teach these values to our kids, because if we don't teach them what we believe, sooner or later, someone else will teach them what THEY believe. My wife's parents are really conservative Christians, but her dad has social anxiety issues, so they never went to church and they never bothered to teach my wife anything about their social values, so then she met me, who is an over-the-top liberal (at the time) Pagan tree-hugging vegetarian... Guess what she is now? Not a conservative.

One of the guiding principals of liberal parenting, it often seems to me, is to not really teach your kids a lot in terms of black and white and what we believe about the world because we don't want to impose our views on them. But I stand firm in Terence McKenna's vision of an "archaic revival" and I wonder how we can ever get there if we don't value our own opinions enough to think that they're worthy of being passed on to the next generation? The shamans in the jungle don't live their lives as if ayahuasca is a non-issue and just let the kids figure out what's going on on their own. Traditional cultures have initiation ceremonies and coming-of-age sacramental rituals which bring young people into the adult culture. These are the kinds of things we need, I think. One of the strong points made in "DMT the Spirit Molecule" movie is that there is no mechanism for us, the modern shamans to bring our knowledge into the wider culture where it can be incorporated and mainstreamed the way there is in traditional cultures. This isn't true, though. We DO have a route, and that is us teaching our children about these things, teaching them that they are not only OK, but something that the human race NEEDS in order to evolve. We also teach them that while we hold this to be true, we must also be weary of those who seek to destroy these states of mind. Also, your kids are GOING to try most of this stuff sooner or later. Would't you rather they do mushrooms with you under the right set and setting rather than trying to buy MDMA at a club and actually getting PCP and ending up in jail, or getting Roffies and having your daughter get raped by some creeper?

The reason why young Evangelicals and Pentecostals are so passionate about their faith is because they are taught there is a war going on where Christians are a persecuted minority and that the wider culture is diametrically opposed to Christianity and a Christian way of life. This is, of course, a stretch to say the least. While I would agree, that from their perspective, American culture is increasingly secular. However, one of the beefs they have against Obama is that they believe he is actually a secret Muslim. I have regularly tried to point out the contradiction of thinking BOTH that a Muslim had to pretend to be Christian in order to get elected in the USA AND ALSO believing that Christianity is a persecuted minority in said same country... But I digress....

If we are to mainstream our values in a way that will change hearts and minds, we HAVE to teach our values to our kids in more than just an "osmosis" kind of way. We also have to develop ways of bringing them into the mysteries at appropriate ages. My son cannot wait to receive his first communion next year. Wouldn't it be great if he had hyperspace to look forward to in the same way... "OK, son, when you're 15, you can meet the elves."

If that were the kind of society we developed in our home, then I could share with him the magical fascination of the first primordia growing in my jelly jars, so seeing the way DMT crystal precipitate out of the naphtha in the freezer. He LOVES science. He'd adore this just as much as I do. And it would give him such a HUGE heads-up when he finally got to organic chem in high school, then what a head-start he'd have on me!

We can only expect to make strides in these culture wars and in the very evolution of consciousness if we are able to pass on knowledge from one generation to the next in an effective way.

One of the arguments I've heard, and used myself, is that if I told my kid what I'm up to, that he'll be convinced to unwittingly ratting you out to a DARE cop at school. I don't know if they still have DARE or not, but you know, conservative Christianity has an answer for us here, as well. Homeschooling or private schools. If your kids' school is not just teaching your kid values that contradict your own, but actively encouraging them to subvert the values you hold dear and turning them into agents against your way of life, it isn't US that needs to change, it's the place we're sending our kids to school.

Someone shared a Terence talk with me recently that I'd never heard before:

http://www.matrixmasters.net/salon/?p=580

and

http://www.matrixmasters.net/salon/?p=581

One of the many things covered in the hour-ish of talking here, is he says, if (paraphrasing), "I hate it when I go over to someone's house and they say 'we have to wait for the kids to go to bed to smoke' [cannabis]. If you can't tell your kids about your use of plants, you're a fucking coward"

I felt VERY convicted by this statement. It was hard to hear, but hard to hear because, ultimately, he's right. I can drink a beer in front of my kid and nothing bad happens. He understands that alcohol is a "grown up drink". And I consider alcohol, on the "good drug/bad drug" scale to we WAAAAYYY over on the "bad" side when compared with cannabis, DMT, mushrooms, salvia.... things which my kid has never even SEEN before (with the exception of some DMT I was scraping off a plate and described as "crumbs I'm making for your uncle's birthday present." ) So... How do we actually LIVE and SHARE our values while still raising kids inside the culture?

Discuss....

Personally I think it may be good to be somewhat secretive when it comes to partaking in things by smoking, only for the reason that smoking in and of itself is harmful with any substance and I would not want to set that example for my child. I believe it is best to be as nonchalant about using psychedelics as possible, with kids it's all about presentation.

I think that once your child gets to a certain age and isn't a liability in keeping your rituals a secret to teachers and such and won't be traumatized by keeping some "big secret" that it would be appropriate to slowly let them in on what different plants are used for. For example you could just say "see this here plant that smells like a skunk? This can be used for pain relief." then go on to explain the health risks, societies views/legality as a disclaimer. I think if you let them know the truth about what these plants do and the laws surrounding them that they will be equally as appalled by their legal status as we are.

Basically, once they are mature enough to have serious conversations with you and properly understand action/consequence situations then they may be ready to know the "whole truth" until then I believe it may be best just to hide out in the back room when they are sleeping and only let them know what they need to know without jeopardizing your secret if they look curious or ask questions. I also don't think you should impose the knowledge on them until they ask, because although we all know how great psychedelics can be, we also know they aren't for everyone and some people do just fine without.

Passing on ideology and philosophy is way more positive, holds more substance as well, than passing on ritualistic, psychedelic drug preparation and use to a child. It isn't safe to assume the dogma you're taking part in, is the ultimate one, and then to pass it to your child as truth can create the same closed minded individual as it would if you instilled evangelical Christian values into him/her. Psychedelics may become the ultimate truth for the individual, just as other individuals become obsessed with their own dogma and will not employ critical thinking to the area in question.

Haha, yeah, I know what McKenna thinks about things. Sadly I don't really care what he thinks about how I raise my kids among other things. Did he even have kids? or was he just one of those people that likes to tell other folks how to raise their kids?

My experience with kids is that "preaching to them" often results in rebellion for the sake of rebellion. Teaching via example, showing how to live builds long lasting habits. If my children can have a strong spiritual life and never do psychedelics I will be BEYOND proud. For my own part, I'm not nearly strong enough to be very spiritual without the crutch of psychedelics.... hardly something to brag about.

I grew up with many kids that were raised with open drug/psychedelic use by their parents. Yeah it may have seemed cool at the time with their parents tripping out in front of us... and yeah it seemed cool that their parents took us to grateful dead concerts, but in the end I always found these kids to use mind altering substances at a much younger age. I also found these kids were dipping into the harder drugs far earlier than others. Altogether it is very very difficult for a young mind to grasp the concept of "pot is good for you" "coke is bad"
Later in life, it is easier to process these concepts. It is also simpler because you've seen people going down the bad road.


The one thing we teach my children is to question everything no matter the source. This includes what the wife and I say to them. They need to come up with a suitable arguement if they wish to do something differently... often times their logic is more sound than my own :-)

I don't have kids of my own and thus I don't have much to contribute to this thread other than being a character witness.

I had the opportunity to meet Ringworm and his family and I have to say that his kids are some of the brightest, most well behaved kids I have encountered in a long time. You can tell instantly that there is no shortage of love and respect in their family. Anyone who is reading this thread should at least consider his advice. From my side of the fence, it appears he really knows what he's talking about.

Good post, ringworm.

I think you're being too hard on yourself about your psychedelic use, I don't think it's anything to be proud of, nor ashamed of as well. Psychedelic drugs, for me, are for lack of a better word, amazing. I just don't resonate well with influencing my children to take part in them, unless they ASK me about it. There's plenty of other things that can blast the doors of perception open in those extremely intelligent little farts, I want them to be equipped with the correct tools to live in this world before they start even considering the "other." That will, ultimately, be their choice, not mine.

I like where you are coming from on this stuff, and this is exactly the kind of discussion I was looking for! Thanks!!!

I think you are right about "dipping into the harder stuff." I know a very small town in the Sierra Nevada foothills, where basically every adult is involved in Cannabis production in some way... And in that same town, you never saw a worse meth problem among high school kids.

Terence did have kids. Son Finn and daughter Klea. I think they're pretty close in age to me, maybe a few years younger.

I always got the impression from his writings and inferences in interviews that he didn't exactly have what one would call the "nuclear" family, though.

I'm not talking about creating "dogma," in terms of rigid belief structures, but creating "coming of age" experiences for kids. I was exposed to marijuana at a pretty young age (started smoking in 7th grade, my friend's dad was a grower) and I didn't get into "harder stuff..." that much. I have used coke, but never got "into" it. I have never done heroin, or any other opiate, for that matter.

I agree with you about passing on values, showing them how to live. I do not, however, agree that it is ok to not provide children with a framework for beliefs. I think that one of the failings of the generation who grew up with hippies for parents doing drugs in front of them has as much to do with the lackadaisical approach to passing on real values than necessarily with the doing of drugs in front of them. Had said "drugs" been done in front of them within the context of a spiritual ritual or presented as a scientific exploration, results may have been different. Who knows. There's no double blind study for such things, only anecdotal evidence. That's why I think such a discussion is so valuable.

I like your approach archaic_architect, and it's probably a good model for what I will eventually do. My youngest is only 6, so I've got a few years to think about it.

I don't see how you can do one without the other.
If I show how to value and treat with respect one thing, is that not the same as another? We abuse no thing be it money, or water, or alcohol, or whatever... it is all the same, everything is precious, no matter what it be. All life is precious and understanding everyone and everything's point of view is essential to fully understanding your own. Is this not a "framework for beliefs" ??? If you are talking about religious mythology type stuff, why would I go into specifics about it?
I mean, the basic ideas are universal, those are reflected in every breathe you take, ya know? but to want to describe each thing, "this is this, that is that" that is an individual thing and not worth going into detail with.
I encourage that every person establish their own philosophy. You can read 100 books on the subject if ya want, pull a little bit from every aspect of your life to make your OWN "framework for beliefs"


We treat kids as adults. What this means is they are free to make their own choices but they also must deal with the repercussions of doing so. It doesn't take long to see what is needed to accomplish something. Kids are smart, ya know?


I love the idea you bring up about "coming of age" type psychedelic usage. Sadly our culture is not setup for such a thing. To introduce my kid to a psychedelic at some "adulthood" festival thing would do more to alienate them from their peers. If they are interested at some point, I'll see what happens at that point.


Korey,
I am not really ashamed of psychedelic use... far from. What I meant was that I am let down by myself that I cannot take the time/expend the energy to do the work to be on this level without them.

nice.... the wife and I have said as much,


Ohhh thanks Melcat, that is very nice of you to say. We all live by the view that if you wish to have respect, you must also give it. This concept is not a concept for us, it is what is.

I think we're on the same page here, Ringworm. I'm speaking in generalizations, not localization.

I DO think that religious mythology is a good thing, from the sense of myth not as a "lie" but myth as "a made up story which tells of greater truth." Which is a great definition I once read in a book called "The Pagan Christ" by Tom Harpur, a former Anglican Priest turned mystic. In it, he argues that the story of Jesus is likely a myth, but that doesn't stop him from being Christian because a myth isn't a lie, it's a made up story which tells the listener a Truth about himself and his place in the world. So, in that regard, I think myth is great for children because they love stories and respond well on a subconscious level to the Truth the myths point toward.

I would also encourage you, Ring, in your feelings on your spiritual development. I've done it both ways, on "the stuff" and the "natural" way with meditation. I had a couple experiences which brushed the edges of the kind of depth I've gotten from psychedelics, and I gave them up for the better part of 15 years seeking those "natural" methods... And we're talking 1-2 hours a day meditating, with one day each week doing 4-6 hours. I never got as deep as I got in 10 seconds on DMT. I don't think its possible. And I'm not talking just about "spiritual realms", but in terms of ego dissolution and annihilation of self... The stated goal of all the eastern religious forms. One time smoking 60mg and I was right where I had been trying to get after 15 years of meditation.

Also, according to Wasson, in "Soma," Yoga and mediation were only developed in India AFTER they were no longer able to obtain their sacred mushroom. So the "natural" methods aren't necessarily better... They are just harder and may or may not be as effective. Certainly the body and blood of our Lord in the Mass has yet to send me to the places I've seen on only a toke of DMT...

Also, once you have kids, the idea of spending that kind of time meditating is OUT THE WINDOW! That's why all the great spiritual guides of the East are either old retired guys or celibate monks and nuns. There's no time to get there like that when you've got little ones. You're doing great, I'm sure.

Also, I'd be interested to hear how old you are and the age range of your kids.

oh yeah man. I know this. The end goal has many paths. I don't really have the time for long term meditation, so I use many tools to help.
Its not a bad thing, it just isn't my preferred method.

I am 33, the wife is 34 and the kids are about to turn 12 and 9.

You guys are pretty much the same age as us, I'm 34 this month, my wife turns 35 this month. Our kids are much younger, though. 6,3, and 2, considering making another. We started relatively late due to spending quite a few years spending multiple hours a day meditating and generally extending our childhoods in the playground that is Northern California.

I just found a little interview with Allyson Grey which seems to agree for the most part with what you are saying:

http://youtu.be/HMAGxCylY_E

one of the things she says is that one should treat these things like questions about sex and Santa Claus. Answer the questions they ask, and no more. That way, one is sure to not offer more than they are prepared to hear.

I am, admittedly, and humbly, behind the curve on this stuff, as I've spend the last 12-15 odd years trying to do it "naturally" and nod really done any psychedelics since my kids birth other than one time with Saliva which produced NO results, until "going for it" with DMT about a couple months ago.

I too have been disappointed by SALIVA; did zilch for me!!

Yeah, saliva is hard to torch.... best kept to sublingual usage.

Well, my usage comes second. I made up a brew friday night with the intention of using it. Friday came and went, my daughters friend biked over and we watching Mystery Science Theatre 3000. So figured I'd do it the next night. Next day my wife's friend brought her paralyzed boyfriend over to go swimming in my pool. He's a neat fella, but was in a motorcycle accident and is just barely getting use of his arms and legs back.
So Saturday I was helping hoist a 190lb dude in an outta the water. Him/her really felt great about it all. Most be horrifying to be having to go through all that.
Sunday is family game night where we bake dinner and desert together and play some sorta game for 3 hours or so before bed.

Monday is here, and my brew's sitting in the fridge :-)
My point of view is when I'm 42 these kids will be over 18... I have plenty of time for all that work to do at that point. Now's the time to have fun with my kids.


watched that Mrs Grey video.
Yup agree with her. On the same note we did some basic drug education. For instance, we have a fella here locally that is a nice guy, but a total drunk. My kids have seen me drink 1-2, even 3 beers in a night to little effect. When they saw him drink so much he fell into a pond and we had to pull him out, they were horrified and embarrassed for him. Another fella lives in his mom's basement and smokes pot while playing video games all day. He doesn't have a job.
We later talked to the kids and reviewed the fact that, yes... you can drink beer. But drinking and loosing control results in what you've seen. and yes, you can smoke a little grass, but using it to escape from reality is a dead end. The kids are smart, if you allow them to draw their own conclusions on things, their insight is far deeper and the impression is longer lasting than if I taught them this.
Most importantly is remaining open on all subjects. They can *always* come and ask my opinion on something and expect an honest answer. At some point Psilocybe mushrooms will be available as they grow wild here.... I have no problem whatsoever in having that conversation.

Your position, ringworm, seems very near to the Grey family position. I found another talk they gave in parenting, and they spent a great deal if time discussing the "answer what they ask and no more" position. I think that is good. They also talked about the possibility of creating "coming of age" rituals as I discussed earlier. Like art summer point, matcher inn late middle school, after The "age of reason" but before the sex drive sets in, you initiate them into the mysteries and let them become adults, ritualistically speaking.

I have a daughter at this age. (Entering puberty physically).
At this point in her life I think a powerful psych experience would shatter her fragile reality in a negative way. She appears to need consistency more than anything.

Perhaps it would be different if this had been part of our culture, something that she witnessed adults doing regularly and has been schooled in since birth. Sadly we do not live in such a place.
If you look into the cultures that do such a thing, their lifestyle is more agreeable to this. Lets looks at some cultures in the Amazon. They historically lived day to day in the jungle, they hunt/kill/cook/clean/survive. That is their entire existence. Their entire mythology and the designs all around them reflect the "other world."
By age 13 these kids are nearing true adulthood where they were sexually active and able to support themselves and their immediate family.
I could hardly give a 13 year old ayahuasca and be like "you are an adult! but ohh btw, do your schoolwork, go to bed on time, etc"
Our world is also larger with more to comprehend and deal with then a smaller localized tribe's world. Being successful in our culture requires a ton more study and preparation.

I definitely agree with what you're saying. Here's the talk I was mentioning:

http://matrixmasters.net...-Grey2008Abraham1992.mp3

Very good stuff here. Lorenzo of "psychedelic salon" also has a 2 part talk of the Greys from Burning Man 2003

http://www.matrixmasters...yBurningMan2003Part1.mp3
http://www.matrixmasters...yBurningMan2003Part2.mp3

One of the things alex mentions in the 1st talk is the way the UDV church allows kids as young as 6 to participate with very small portions of sacred tea, and slowly increasing the dosage as they get older. The threshold age for participating being that they are old enough to verbalize their experiences and be coached through what is happening by their elders.

Once again, though, we're talking about this happening in a place where it is all culturally sanctioned. UDV is a fully recognized religious form in Brazil. It is not bound to the jungle in the way you discussed with traditional shamanism, having churches all over the country in both the jungle and in small towns and in the big cities. The same holds true for Santo Daime, although I do not know their practices regarding children.

Thinking back to my own adolescence, I would say that I, like pretty much everyone that age, was HIGHLY concerned with fitting in, being a part of the crowd, and doing what everyone else was doing. I agree that being ushered into these experiences would likely be very maladaptive to a modern American middle schooler. Even if the experience was positive, it would be near-impossible for them to not talk to peers about what had occurred, and teachers or other parents finding out you're giving your 7th grader high-powered psychedelics would be the death-knell for your own freedom. Bare minimum, your kids are going into the foster care system, and you are likely going to prison... If the kid COULD keep it to themselves and not share, this would DEEPLY alienate them from their peer group, which is a fate worse than death for a middle schooler...

So, I think it is clear that this is NOT the path we should be taking, mostly due to the cultural confines of our society. Perhaps the question we should then be asking is this: How do we create a NEW society? How do we bring about the "archaic revival" to which Mr McKenna was so looking forward?