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Everything's learned, nothing's real. Options
 
rjb
#1 Posted : 6/28/2012 9:24:58 AM

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It seems like such an evident statement, but an interesting one nonetheless. It just came into my head, and I have the habit of writing down every little thing that seems important to me. What do you think?
The truth...lies within.
 

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Korey
#2 Posted : 6/28/2012 9:29:13 AM

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Nothing is real?

I don't resonate with that very well.


"Everything is learned, nothing is genuine."

I could dig that more Razz
ā€œThe most compelling insight of that day was that this awesome recall had been brought about by a fraction of a gram of a white solid, but that in no way whatsoever could it be argued that these memories had been contained within the white solid. Everything I had recognized came from the depths of my memory and my psyche. I understood that our entire universe is contained in the mind and the spirit. We may choose not to find access to it, we may even deny its existence, but it is indeed there inside us, and there are chemicals that can catalyze its availability.ā€
 
rjb
#3 Posted : 6/28/2012 10:24:41 AM

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Nope, I meant real. I will explain my way of viewing it: everything that we know today is the result of someone's interpretations. Basically anything is a description of what our senses tell us. So, in that matter, nothing is real, because we simply can't perceive the real, we're just perceiving a description of the real, being limited by our senses, in the same way that if you're looking through an infrared camera you'll see a certain description, whereas if you remove the infrared filter, the description changes radically.

Now, in terms of human interactions, I find this statement to be much more obvious. Think about any process you want, be it a career, doing your own laundry, reading and writing, etc. You can learn how to do that from someone, be it via an institution, reading on the internet or being shown how to do it by a bunch of other people. What you're doing is learning some steps, that's all it is. Some made up steps that just render a certain reproducible result. Nothing suggests it's real. Or maybe I just don't see the link.

It really is all an illusion... Laughing
The truth...lies within.
 
psychedelic
#4 Posted : 6/28/2012 11:14:22 AM
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The only thing we can say is real is this experience, without labeling it. To understand it better you can all it ''consciousness'' or ''life'' or ''this happening/ NOW '', because there obviously is an experience happening in this moment. What we experience is like through a filter of the senses we have, and constantly attaching ourselves to beliefs and creating our identity and what is ''real'' and what is not ''real'', so I guess to some point it can be conceptual, but to another, deep down the only REAL thing is ''this moment/experience''.
 
anrchy
#5 Posted : 6/28/2012 11:20:09 AM

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I don't agree with "everything we know today is the result of someone's interpretations"

Because a lot of what I know is a result of my own interpretations. Your description of what is real isn't how I see things at all. This is all very real to me. I am experiencing real. If its not real it really isn't happening and doesn't exist. Sorry but this does exist and I am experiencing something.
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psychedelic
#6 Posted : 6/28/2012 11:44:33 AM
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If nothing is real, then what is real?
If where we are living is ALL unreal and an illusion, how did we come up with an idea or ''real''?

When we create the idea of real, we simultaneously create the idea of unreal. Just like hot and cold exist simultaneously, because if there were no ''cold'' then ''hot'' could not be. hah.

So then, if nothing is real, then everything is real.
In other words, if the IDEA of nothing is real, then the IDEA of everything must also be real.

But then you can say: ''I am not talking about the idea of nothing. I am talking about the real... uh oh''

So there, Everything is real and unreal to a conceptual level. But this existence is real. But then once you say it's real you are coming back to a conceptual level of viewing this there unreal exists, so lets just say everything IS. without involving the ''real'' label.

Just freestyling my mind hereSmile
 
christian
#7 Posted : 6/28/2012 12:04:51 PM

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rjb wrote:
everything that we know today is the result of someone's interpretations.


I understand what you are saying but you are only partially correct. Whilst we have been trained and conditioned from birth to understand our limits, and this has been maintained throught our lives, we do have our own space of freedom withing those laws.

Reality certainly exists and the thing that is different about it is our perception of it. That is where education comes in so that we can learn about certain characteristic properties of that reality, in order to understand if it is a threat or good thing, etc.

Try ignoring a Tiger in the nature! Shocked
"Eat your vegetables and do as you're told, or you won't be going to the funfair!"
 
rjb
#8 Posted : 6/28/2012 12:33:25 PM

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anrchy wrote:
I don't agree with "everything we know today is the result of someone's interpretations"

Because a lot of what I know is a result of my own interpretations. Your description of what is real isn't how I see things at all. This is all very real to me. I am experiencing real. If its not real it really isn't happening and doesn't exist. Sorry but this does exist and I am experiencing something.


psychedelic wrote:
So there, Everything is real and unreal to a conceptual level. But this existence is real. But then once you say it's real you are coming back to a conceptual level of viewing this there unreal exists, so lets just say everything IS. without involving the ''real'' label.


Yes, what you know is the result of your interpretation. You are someone, aren't you? Some other individual might perceive another interpretation, but it's still an interpretation. You can understand what your eyes project into your brain through sight, but you can have no idea what it is that you're perceiving. There's no telling about the REAL nature of that thing, independent of our observation. If it actually exists, that is.

Quantum mechanics states that everything is in a state of existence and non-existence, at the same time. Everything's real and not real at the same time. From that I extract that reality exists only as long as it's looked at, observed. Take this nice little example: you're sitting in front of your computer, a radio plays in the room. Now, the radio waves (sounds) are only there when you are listening to them. If you put headphones on, for example, and play something from your computer, you're no longer interpreting the radio signal, but the computer signal. The headphones will sound louder and will override the "outside the headphones" reality. Does this mean the radio signal is not there anymore? No, it means that both signals exist at the same time, but we're selectively choosing what's "real" to us at that moment. Reality is subjective, after all.

This is just the paradox that we're living, maybe we'll come to a point when things will become more clear than they are now, maybe we'll learn something at some point which will change our understanding. Even if that will be death. In the meanwhile, it's fun to consider the possibilities, even if that's all there is to it: plain old fun.

@psychedelic, I like your approach, I would only like to add this: "everything IS and ISN'T". That describes the state more accurately, because there isn't being without not being.

Thanks everyone for contributing! I find it so facscinating to be alive and be able to wonder about those things...so keep posting!
The truth...lies within.
 
JuremaSpaceship
#9 Posted : 6/28/2012 2:03:56 PM

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The only thing that's "real" is experience.
Rugā€¢Wallā€¢Ceilingā€¢Peopleā€¢Fruitā€¢Music
 
Citta
#10 Posted : 6/28/2012 2:37:58 PM

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rjb:

No matter how you turn and twist it, the one thing I (and presumably you and everyone else as well) can conclude without any doubt at all is that the experience we are having of this thing we call life is real. I am talking about consciousness. Is there something that is real in this universe, it is consciousness. There is no way to doubt this, no way at all. Try to doubt your own consciousness! As far as the contents of our consciousness goes however, we can't be a hundred percent sure of course; we can only assume and draw conclusions that seems reasonable, likely and consistent to us.
 
VIII
#11 Posted : 6/28/2012 4:13:10 PM

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I have to agree that one thing we truly know to be real is our consciousness and our experience.

Sure, our brains essentially hallucinate our waking life, but personally I still believe what we experience is real.

I dont see the point in doubting our own senses either, as it is our only way of interacting with the universe. Our senses work together to confirm that something is real. The relationship of cause and effect are real to me as well. I know if I flick my lighter, then it will create a flame. I know if I hold a flame beneath my open hand, then my hand will burn. I have learned that this is a repeatable fact and therefore it is real.

Doubting our learned knowledge has always been healthy, but I'm not gonna doubt my senses anytime soon.

I've always gotten a kick out of the thought that our brains hallucinate everything we perceive. I've wondered just what the universe truly looks like, but I came to the conclusion that what I see is real. Perhaps I do not see the whole picture, but the part of it that I can perceive is real.

It would be interesting to wonder what might be right in front of us if only we had the correct sense to sense it.
The inner soul is full of joy. Reveal my secrets and sew me whole. With each day, "I" heeds your call.
You may not care the slightest and may not be the brightest, but from here "I" sees you're mighty for you created it all.

And the jumbling sea rose above the wall.

Through this chaos comes the order you enthrall.
 
anrchy
#12 Posted : 6/28/2012 5:55:26 PM

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you guys are over complicating a simple understanding IMO.

Quote:
the radio waves (sounds) are only there when you are listening to them


No. This is not how this works.

Quote:
Knowledge of the unobserved world
Main article: Observer-expectancy effect

Can we assume the unobserved world functions the same as the observed world? - e.g., "does observation affect outcome?"
A similar question does not involve whether or not an unobserved event occurs predictably, like it occurs when it is observed. The anthropic principle suggests that the observer, just in its existence, may impose on the reality observed. However, most people, as well as scientists, assume that the observer doesn't change whether the tree-fall causes a sound or not, but this is an impossible claim to prove. However, many scientists would argue as follows, "A truly unobserved event is one which realises no effect (imparts no information) on any other (where 'other' might be e.g., human, sound-recorder or rock), it therefore can have no legacy in the present (or ongoing) wider physical universe. It may then be recognized that the unobserved event was absolutely identical to an event which did not occur at all.". Of course, the fact that the tree is known to have changed state from 'upright' to 'fallen' implies that the event must be observed to ask the question at all - even if only by the supposed deaf onlooker. The British philosopher of science Roy Bhaskar, credited with developing critical realism has argued, in apparent reference to this riddle, that:

If men ceased to exist sound would continue to travel and heavy bodies to fall to the earth in exactly the same way, though ex hypothesi there would be no-one to know it[7]

This existence of an unobserved real is integral to Bhaskar's ontology, which contends (in opposition to the various strains of positivism which have dominated both natural and social science in the twentieth century) that 'real structures exist independently of and are often out of phase with the actual patterns of events'.[8] In social science, this has made his approach popular amongst contemporary Marxists - notably Alex Callinicos - who postulate the existence of real social forces and structures which might not always be observable[9][10][11] .
Open your Mind (ā’¶) Please read my DMT vaping guide (ā’¶) Fear is the mind killer

"Energy flows where attention goes"

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misterfractal55834
#13 Posted : 6/28/2012 6:36:41 PM

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I feel that the whole idea of "the world only exists because our consciousness perceives it to exist" is a little arrogant. It's basically saying that humans are far superior to everything else because our minds create the existence of anything else. It's almost like saying you're a godly being. Only "god" can truly know what actually exists and doesn't. Saying something exists only because you allow it to, is pretty close to comparing yourself to god. This is strictly my opinion. No opinion is correct or wrong.
"I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected
enough to step aside and weep like a widow
to feel inspired, to fathom the power,
to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain,
to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human" -Tool
"Spiral out... Keep going...
 
Guyomech
#14 Posted : 6/28/2012 7:12:45 PM

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My twist:

1) "Real" is what you percieve and experience (this is strictly a semantic distinction)

2) all realities are subjective- there is no "objective" or "correct" way to perceive the universe.

The notion of "objective reality" seems paradoxical to me. This could only be possible if the entire universe could perceive itself in its entirety, all at once. Perhaps this is the very thing that takes place in the Transcendental Object At The End Of Time, but under normal circumstances it's not likely. That's why the word "real" is most applicable at a personal level- and why people have such a hard time agreeing on what is and isn't real.
 
misterfractal55834
#15 Posted : 6/28/2012 7:15:53 PM

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Lol don't think so hard. It'll make you go crazy.
"I embrace my desire to feel the rhythm, to feel connected
enough to step aside and weep like a widow
to feel inspired, to fathom the power,
to witness the beauty, to bathe in the fountain,
to swing on the spiral of our divinity and still be a human" -Tool
"Spiral out... Keep going...
 
Guyomech
#16 Posted : 6/28/2012 7:26:12 PM

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Ayanami: there are certainly facts whose pertinence is common to us all. Nonetheless, we each will perceive these things in our own personally unique ways.
 
psychedelic
#17 Posted : 6/28/2012 8:44:04 PM
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misterfractal55834 wrote:
I feel that the whole idea of "the world only exists because our consciousness perceives it to exist" is a little arrogant. It's basically saying that humans are far superior to everything else because our minds create the existence of anything else. It's almost like saying you're a godly being. Only "god" can truly know what actually exists and doesn't. Saying something exists only because you allow it to, is pretty close to comparing yourself to god. This is strictly my opinion. No opinion is correct or wrong.


Consciousness is all. It includes not only human beings but everything. Me, you, all animals, planets, galaxies are god, I believe. It is not selfish, because there is no self to be fishy about.
 
rjb
#18 Posted : 6/28/2012 8:46:09 PM

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misterfractal55834 wrote:
I feel that the whole idea of "the world only exists because our consciousness perceives it to exist" is a little arrogant. It's basically saying that humans are far superior to everything else because our minds create the existence of anything else. It's almost like saying you're a godly being. Only "god" can truly know what actually exists and doesn't. Saying something exists only because you allow it to, is pretty close to comparing yourself to god. This is strictly my opinion. No opinion is correct or wrong.


I don't see this as you do, I'm sorry. I don't see why is that arrogant. I don't attribute arrogance to it, so it must be a subjective POV, something you learned it's arrogant, enforcing my point that it's all just learned. You learn to do something one way, and if it works, you stick to it until another more accurate definition comes along. It's really an honest point to defend, but what I'm suggesting is that it might not be the most accurate one.

I would consider the phenomena called "perceptual blindness". It's an interesting addition to this thread, I believe.
The truth...lies within.
 
The Day Tripper
#19 Posted : 6/28/2012 8:52:27 PM

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The world only exists as we know it because we perceive it, and subjectively interpret it. Its more a statement as to how concrete our sense of reality really is.

The world would still exist if humans did not exist, it would just be perceived in a different way, theres nothing arrogant about saying we create the reality we perceive. Saying the world does not exist AT ALL until we, one of an endless # of perceptional organisms, perceive it, is another statement entirely, and arrogant imho in that we are the only thing capable of perception of reality.
"let those who have talked to the elves, find each other and band together" -TMK

In a society in which nearly everybody is dominated by somebody else's mind or by a disembodied mind, it becomes increasingly difficult to learn the truth about the activities of governments and corporations, about the quality or value of products, or about the health of one's own place and economy.
In such a society, also, our private economies will depend less upon the private ownership of real, usable property, and more upon property that is institutional and abstract, beyond individual control, such as money, insurance policies, certificates of deposit, stocks, etc. And as our private economies become more abstract, the mutual, free helps and pleasures of family and community life will be supplanted by a kind of displaced citizenship and by commerce with impersonal and self-interested suppliers...
The great enemy of freedom is the alignment of political power with wealth. This alignment destroys the commonwealth - that is, the natural wealth of localities and the local economies of household, neighborhood, and community - and so destroys democracy, of which the commonwealth is the foundation and practical means.ā€ - Wendell Berry
 
rjb
#20 Posted : 6/28/2012 9:01:21 PM

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Thanks everyone who posted. Each of you made interesting points, I'm enjoying this thread. Just want to make it clear, all I'm claiming is that I know absolutely nothing, if anything. My advice in general is laugh. Laugh at the absurdity of it all! Laughing

Then dive right back in.
The truth...lies within.
 
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