I think everyone who disagrees with the statement that LSD is a psychedelic that compared to other psychedelics can easily cause a bad trip, has not much experience with it. If you've taken LSD a few times and only had fun trips, i can very well imagine that 69rons statement seems subjective. But if you are very experienced with this substance you know better. I think it would be a miracle if you do it hundreds of times without ever having a bda trip, but even if you never would have had a bad trip, i still think you would agree with this statement. LSD is very euphoric, often. But it's that energy with wich it's euphoric, that emotional 'thrust' it gives, that can cause it to go wrong. People who're realy familiar with acid would know what i mean with 'thrust' or 'energy' and they would have to egree, even if they only had euphoric trips, that fighting, or trying to control emotions that are powered-up this much is an almost impossible task.
And this doesn't contradict with the set and setting propositions in any way. I even think it confirms it. How LSD influences 'set' is exactly what this is all about.

look, I know you guys are older and all, but SWIM has already had also over a hundred lsd trips and more of other psychedelics, and is in contact with several people who are related to it, both young or also old school people with a lot more experience. There seems to be a big difference between different individuals.

Maybe its just SWIM but he is not one to have bad trips in general. Maybe its because he takes care he only takes in good situations, or that he doesnt have pending business when he does, and also he doesnt have too many hidden weird unconscious dark parts or traumas, and is quite healthy and balanced so the psychedelics 'spare' him of the bad part, or its just his own organism, metabolism, psychological inherencies and so on. SWIM may be an exception but psychedelics is really his thing, his way. Its also not a matter of dose as SWIM usually tends for the higher doses. He doesnt use any other drug, no alcohol, cigarretes or even caffeine. He really loves psychedelics (and maybe a bit of good smoke) In any case it goes to show that not everybody is the same way.

LSD was SWIM's first psychedelic, and one he experimented with in a lot of different situations. SWIM never really had a bad trip, only difficult moments related to set and setting but that were all quite quick (like needing to take a crap in a dirty festival toilet while the whole thing is swallowing you haha). Nowadays SWIM preffers other entheogens, specially ayahuasca, mushrooms and dmt, not because of bad trips of lsd or anything but because he feels he learns more from them. Though an acid trip in a nice nature place or listening to some good music is still great

I never said that there are absolutely not more LSD bad trips than others. I said that for me, LSD doesnt cause bad trips (obviously if one took it the day a loved one died its possible, but also for example with mushrooms too its just as possible, IMO).
I also said that any generalizing afirmation regarding LSD causing more bad trips is bound to be limited because of the difference in amount of people that have taken LSD compared to other psychedelics, the set and setting involved in LSD taking, the amount of misinformation that was spread related to it and all those sorts of things.

Any scientist knows how important it is to consider the hidden variables (which in this case are huge) when trying to make generalizations.

You may have a different set than others. Everyone still acts as if set means setting. SET is both physiology and psychology. Thus ones unique molecular phenotypes are a part of set as well as their experiences, expectations and views. LSD certainly causes bad trips in many people, there are so many uncontrolled variables to draw any solid conclusion. Many people consider LSD a unique compound and the binding assays confirmed that this has a pharmacological correlation. Even still there is no evidence to suggest this is why people are more likely to have a bad trip. But LSD is very psychological in many people, this in SWIMs opinion and from SWIMs experience is why LSD is more likely to cause an bad trip (just like marijuana can make you paranoid sometimes).

yes sure.. I dont have any problem with anybody considering LSD to be psychological and therefore more difficult to some people, specially when worded as a view/model/opinion and with the knowledge that there are all sorts of exceptions, and when different factors like set and setting are considered

I can't believe someone actually voted for Oral Mescaline (or cacti) here? What was the "bad trip" like?

I really can't believe mushrooms got the "most likely to cause a bad trip award". I've also got alot of friends that would feel the same as me. I've had ALOT of HIGH DOSE mushroom trips and they've all been great. Maybe I always go in with a great set and setting, maybe I've just been lucky. I just can't imagine what a bad trip on mushrooms would be like because from my experience I could never imagine anyone having one. I'm not denying that people do have them because I know they do, I'm just dumb founded.

Its the first time I ever saw mushrooms out do LSD in such a poll.

I only hope no one cheated and voted more than once with different accounts. With only 17 votes, just one such cheater could have messed up the entire poll.

How do you define a bad trip? Some things are worse for some than others. If I'm on acid getting paranoid and scared, it's not really a bad trip for me. It's much worse when I'm on mushrooms and my emotions are getting all screwy. Some people like getting worked up and emotional, but some can't take it. Some people would prefer overwhelming intensity to psychological torture.

it's pretty much subjective...

I didn't vote, but I'd say LSD is more of a mindfuck because of how long it lasts.
and mushrooms are intense, no doubt.
but like I've said at the shroomery, LSD reaches a plateau...you can only take so much before you literally reach a peak...metabolism takes over and you can't go any further (LSD has some sort of saturation effect...taking more than ~750mics seems to just extend the experience a bit). the other biochemists on the board agreed, they've seen studies which have confirmed this. i can attest to this from my own past experiences.

with mushrooms, the more you take, the more out there you're going to get.

With mushrooms, ayahuasca or DMT the chance of a sort of overdose is indeed greater then with acid. But i do agree that some substances have more of a mental effect then others. Ofcourse set and setting matter much. Many people like booze, but i don't and certainly not when i'm having a bizy day tomorow.
The difference between the polls have to do with the perspective the question of each poll asumes, though it's technically the same question.
'what gives the greatest chance of a bad trip?' will be interpreted by many people as 'what's the most unpleasant stuff?', while 'what gives the smallest chance of a bad trip?' will be interpreted as 'wich substance is the safest?'.
The question that better answers the other two questions is 'what substance is the easyest in dealing with/what substance is most demanding?'
That one substance is more pleasant then another is a more subjective fact than how demanding or controllable a substance is. To me it's a fact that mushrooms,ayahuasca and DMT are more controllable then LSD or 5-MeO-DMT. Both polls combined confirm this, since LSD is the only substance that gives a high 'bad-trip-rating' in BOTH polls.

BTW, i think 'set and setting' are more complicated factors than you would assume. I think that especially 'set' is not a given fact. 'set' is something that might change during the trip, and the substance you take may have an effect on how 'set' changes. That's why some substances are as well influenced by 'set and setting', as having an effect on them itself, as well.

in my experience there is no plateau to lsd, at least I havent reached it and have taken very large doses. My friends experience is the same. Also, all the people who report having taken a thumbprint will swear that it is way stronger experience than any 1200 mics or whatever. Ask white rasta in this forum, or check out his and chinacat's posts in the shroomery.

Maybe it is one more of these things that have individual differences..

I would be interest in any studies confirming this. Can you hook us up with any?

On why shrooms beat acid... It's such a small sample that one can't read too much into it, but...

Imagine that the poll was bigger and this was definitely not a freak result (and it happens to have coincided with SWIMS limited experience incidentally) and that a poll on a general drugforum had different results (it could be done if desired)... maybe people who enjoy DMT are for some reason also more inclined to have a bad time on shrooms?... Many who enjoy DMT like it because 1) it's mega intense and 2) it only lasts 10 minutes so if you go the wrong way you're out quickly. Maybe people who like DMT like to push it as far as they can go, and if you do that with shrooms you're more likely have a bad time because of the timespan? Acid would get more diffucult with large doses too, but Erowid says that the acid experience doesn't really increase in intensity once you go over a certain dose... so if you're pushing the doses hardcore maybe then shrooms takes over from acid as the most likely to give you a bad time at some point.

Just flagrant speculation to feed your minds with, more studies required!

Ohayoco, I did the same type of poll years ago on another forum and LSD beat everything else by a long shot.

I'm shocked that mushrooms beat LSD here

We only had a small handful of actual voters (a few may have voted more than once with different accounts, I hope not). I don’t get it. This forum has tons of members, but only 18 voted so far. It’s a really poor turnout. Maybe less than 1% of the members even voted. I was hoping for at least 100 votes by the end of the week

I'll ask plasmid where he saw this.
we both pass off chinacat's romanticization of the thumbprint experience as ritual more than anything.
no way in hell an LSD trip lasts a week, or even a couple days.

I used to get amber in the proverbial sweet breath bottles, and sipped it like I was refreshing my breath. never actually saw anything that wasn't there. I can't say the same about high doses of psilocin.

I think the polls are consistent toghether. They also tell something about the character of each substance.
LSD in relation to bad trips, is the most risky substance (the only susbtance in the top 3 of most risky substances in both polls).
Mushrooms can be both incredibly mild aand manageable as well as incredibly powerfull and overwhelming, wich explains the seeming contradictory position.
For each substance it's position can be explained, i think. For some substances like bufotenin or 5-MeO-DMT i think the number of people who participated is too small to come to a representative conclusion. The least known substances score low in both polls.

Poll results for Monday, February 09, 2009, 6:00 AM

These are the poll results for What psychedelic is less likely to cause bad trips ordered by votes.



These are the poll results for What psychedelic is most likely to cause bad trips ordered by votes.

Poll results for Thursday, February 12, 2009 6:55:44 AM PST

These are the poll results for What psychedelic is less likely to cause bad trips ordered by votes.



These are the poll results for What psychedelic is most likely to cause bad trips ordered by votes.

In the latest poll results LSD moved up slightly. It looks like LSD and mushrooms, the classic indole psychedelics, are most likely to cause a bad trip. They are way ahead of everything else.

So shrooms are winning!
I've had countless trips with shrooms and yes I've had bad ones but shrooms never scare me away But I'm a bit scared of LSD. Haven't done much blotter thou, and never had a bad trip but I just don't like the length of the trip. Wouldn't like to be in hell for 12 hours