What do you mean with "they should be isolated and properly studied" ? What IS a propper study, and what would isolation (other than the separation during chromatography analysis to identify the alkaloids) be good for?

So far Ive only send a crude cold methanol soak extract of each of the kiwi plants, to get the general idea of whats in the plant, since methanol should get all the possibly interesting compounds in the plant. The idea is that in the future the brews are also analysed to see if brewing changes alkaloid content. You can click my signature caapi link for more info on ayahuasca plants that were already tested, including extracts vs crude plants.

I collaborate in an organization that does this analysis legally, but unfortunately at this moment we cannot receive international samples, so you just gotta be patient and wait for me being able to afford getting the plants, having time to prepare the samples, testing them, interpreting results and then writting conclusions and sharing. Slowly slowly but we're getting closer to knowing more about these plants

Irie,
Just haven't found the time to!
Will do at some point!
Respect,
Z

Some more info here:

https://www.dmt-nexus.me...&m=354750#post354750

I believe the black caapi from w0rld s33d supp1y might be Alicia. I'm working on a brew and methanol extraction for testing now.

No way, definatly not alicia. I can tell right away from the cross section of that vine in the picture..looks like caapi and nothing like alicia.

not to derail, but does this look like alicia? its advertised as a black caapi at MMH3.

Does look similar, check this thread:

https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=32018

Yeah I would say that most likely is alicia. Looks exactly like it.

Posting a link here to endlessness cappi analysis thread. https://www.dmt-nexus.me...m=355116&#post355116


It appears he did an analysis on the alecia anisopetala bark, very worth checking out. My understanding is that there was alot of background noise, so the alkaloids couldnt be clearly identified, but im sure with a less or more (i dont know) diluted sample, things will start to make more sense.

Thanks a million endlessness.

A bit more complicated than that unfortunately..

It's not the common harmalas, but dont know what it is.

Concentrating the sample and testing again will be a clearer mass spectra but even with clearer mass spectra, the work to identify it will be equally hard, which is to look through all publications of caapi and related vines analysis (and any guesses of what substances could be in there), find mass spectra of them, and compare with the images posted in the caapi analysis thread. Anybody can help me with it, as mentioned in the caapi thread, you dont need to be an expert, just look for the keywords (mass spectra, banisteriopsis , analysis, etc), find the mass spectra numbers or graph and post them in this thread: https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=32604 ) . I can do it slowly but I already got a ton of things to do so any collaboration would be very appreciated and would help us move faster.

how do we find unidentified alkaloids? I mean how would you know it is not named?

You just look at the analysis on the net and see if you can match up peaks?


maybe We cant see the results of the test beccause, the peaks we are looking have not been identified/ named yet? My hunch is just that, we will discover new harmalas.

After all what is the ridiculous statistic, something like 97 or 99% of amazonian plants have yet to be studied by science. I say we pick up their slack!

End, im willing to look through some of these analysis.... is that correct that you just examine the peaks and see if they match up with the analysis that you posted?

Awesome stuff, enthralling

Well the thing is, before you decide that for sure they have never been described, you need to look through all sorts of related publication looking for clues, because maybe they are described somewhere, in caapi or related species. If all search turns nothing, then you can start trying to make a structural study/identification.

GC-MS gives some clues on structure but not totally. so you would have to use other equipment to help, most notably you would first isolate using column chromatography or HPLC, and then running the isolated unknown substance through Nuclear Magnetic Resonance. This is a LOT of work and I have no easy access to NMR. BUT, with HPLC-MS/MS, which might be a possibility towards the end of the year, it could already be quite good to get good structural information. But honestly, this is a whole team's work and i'm doing all the work with just one other person that inserts the samples in the machine once a week or every other week. I do not have enough knowledge/experience to be the one to structurally characterize, and I've also got a "normal" life to attend to, lol. I would need some expert or two or three to work with (and got no money to hire that expert).

Not to make it sound bad of course, just that things aren't so simple and easy, so it's one step at a time And the next step we should do which would help the whole project, is to collect the mass spectra of ALL the alkaloids found in Banisteriopsis and related vines and add it to the thread linked above, so we can help identifying these or other possible alkaloids we might run into in the future. This is all you need for accessing most articles published in the world

I see where you coming from my friend, it honestly does sound like a big big project.

Just hit the government up for some research grants dude! (kiddin)

End im willin to help anyway i can if you have any requests of me pm, im highly interested in the project and willing to spend time.

And im still willing to biosaay vines, we still havent had but a few reports.... It'll take a while and some work to get it mapped out scientifically, but we can still discover the "magical" properties of these plants by taking them!

In this post is a picture of the actual vine I received. I got it from their ebay page (wS Sh3rbal) and this particular vine is no longer listed.

It looks a lot like the Alicia to me..

I'm brewing some up now, so I'll report back after I consume some.

^yes the vine you have looks like alicia, but the vine they have listed as black caapi on the site does not. 2 very different vines it seems.

Irie Cat,
It does not look like the Alicia! IMHO.
The bark is much more caapi looking than the spongy bark of alicia.
Looking like the traditional black.....Have a good brew!
Respect,
Z

Imo, right now, the biggest contributions we can make from the ID'ing perspective is to actually track down any literature on the uknown compounds that we have information for as a result of the GC-MS work. This is something I've spent this evening working on in part, to no avail. There's a lot of related material to read through...and that's assuming these compounds (if they are in scientific literature) are in aya/β-carboline/ethnobotanically related lit.

If we get the info for the known alkaloids that have yet to be found in this thread, we may very well find that the alks that are currently unidentified are among them. If not, we will have ruled out a significant number of potentially related alkaloids, narrowing down the search to some degree.

If you have time/willingness, I would urge you to work towards ID'ing either the known or unknown alks so that we can figure out what exactly is in these vines...this is going to be a huge time sink, imo.

Some background on Alicia anisopetala and the genus Alicia

The genus Alicia is part of the same family as other ayahuasca vines (Malpighiaceae). At present, there are only two species recognized as belonging to this genus: A. anisopetala and A. macrodisca. Both were formerly considered to be members of the genus Mascagnia, which was essentially a catch-all genus that included anything that didn't fit nicely into the other related genera (Triopterys, Tetrapterys, Hiraea, etc.). It's unsurprising that when modern genetic analysis was applied, Mascagnia was shown to be polyphyletic, and several of its members were split into new genera. Details on this split can be found in Anderson 2006.


Nomenclature
Alicia anisopetala (A. Jussieu in A. St.-Hilaire) W.R. Anderson.

• =Hiraea anisopetala A.Juss.
  
• =Mascagnia anisopetala (A. Juss.) Griseb.
  
• =Hiraea macrocarpa Chodat
  
• =Mascagnia nobilis C.V. Morton

Alicia macrodisca (Triana & Planchon) W.R. Anderson

• =Mascagnia macrodisca (Triana & Planch) Nied.
  
• =Mascagnia anisopetala var. macrodisca (Triana & Planch.) Kosterm.
  
• =Hiraea macrodisca Triana & Planch

Chemistry
There are no reports in the literature of anyone studying the chemistry of A. anisopetala or A. macrodisca. This obviously makes it difficult to find a starting point in identifying the unknown peaks from Endlessness' GCMS data. The next step is to consider the chemistry of closely-related species to see if they contain the same (or structurally related) compounds.


Closely-related species
At present, the best-resolved phylogenetic tree containing A. anisopetala (under the synonym Mascagnia anisopetala) comes from Davis et al. 2002. The most closely related species surveyed in that paper were Callaeum septentrionale and Mascagnia bracteosa [=Malpighiodes bracteosa]; the data supports placing these three generea (Alicia, Callaeum, and Malpighiodes) in a single clade.

This close relation to the genus Callaeum initially seems promising. Callaeum antifebrile is used in folk medicine as a febrifuge and seems to be associated with B. caapi. I've seen several claims that it is used as a hallucinogen (e.g. Johnson 1986), but these claims all seem to refer to a 1943 report which says no such thing ("Both plants [B. caapi and C. antifebrile] are used in popular medicine and sorcery, but I do not know if the species I am now describing has any narcotic propriety"; Ducke 1943). It is known by common names including bejuco de las calenturas (fever vine), agahuasca, ayahuasca negro, shillinto (a Peruvian term for ayahuasca), shillinto blanco, and shillinto negro (Johnson 1986). But as promising as this sounds as a lead for identifying the unknown peaks, it may be a dead end; C. antifebrile has been found to contain harmine (Schultes 1982), and this is likely responsible for its activity as a febrifuge. For anyone interested in digging through the literature on this plant (what I've presented here is only touching the surface [edit: see post #141]), the following is a list of botanical synonyms you may encounter:

Callaeum antifebrile (Ruiz ex Grisebach) D.M. Johnson

• [=Banisteria antifebrilis Ruiz ex Griseb.]
  
• [=Cabi paraensis Ducke]
  
• [=Mascagnia psilophylla var. antifebrilis (Griseb.) Nied.]
  
• [=Mascagnia psilophylla f. peruviana Nied.]

The genus Malpighiodes is another that was split from Mascagnia in 2006. It contains four species: M. bracteosa, M. guianensis, M. leucanthele, and M. liesneri. I haven't yet searched the literature for these names (or their botanical synonyms) to see if any chemical analysis or ethnomedicinal uses have been reported. I would encourage anyone with the spare time to do so.



References

• Anderson, W.R. 2006. Eight Segregates from the Neotropical Genus Mascagnia (Malpighiaceae). Novon 16(2): 168-204.
  
• Davis, C.C., C.D. Bell, S. Mathews, and M.J. Donoghue. 2002. Laurasian migration explains Gondwanan disjunctions: Evidence from Malpighiaceae. PNAS 99(10): 6833–6837.
  
• Ducke, A. 1943. O cabí do Pará. Arquivos do Servicio Forestal 2(1): 13-17.
  
• Johnson, D.M. 1986. Revision of the neotropical genus Callaeum (Malpighiaceae). Systematic Botany 11(2): 335-353.
  
• Schultes, R.E. 1982. The beta-carboline Hallucinogens of South America. Journal of Psychoactive Drugs 14(3): 205-220.
  

Thank you very much, refreshing to see such well organized and referenced post, Entropymancer

I think continuing to check for related plants and substances is a good idea, and your clues are already a great starting point! Anybody here who wants to contribute to these unique developments should pick up your suggestion to keep searching using key words such as the name of those species and "analysis", "phytochemistry", "chromatography" , "pharmacology", "alkaloids", "ethnobotanical", "toxicity", etc. using this search tool, and then post back any interesting findings in this thread, or related threads in the Plant Analysis subforum.

I will post the Tetrapterys methystica peaks too at some point, but I first want to make a more concentrated solution to re-analyse. So also keep in mind the importance of plants related to the Tetrapterys species and chemical information because it will help us out in the near future

Entro, awesome post ...I think I can start to look into some of those names this evening when I get home. My only critique of your post (if you could call it that) would be the use of the plant list for nomenclature. It's not necessarily a bad resource to check for the existence of a name and associated authors...but its synonymy is in error in a lot of places and I’m not 100% sure of how up to date or “correct” (to whatever degree any endeavor to map nature can be) the overall database is.

The International Plant Names Index (IPNI) draws its records from Index Kewensis (maintained by Kew Gardens in England), the Gray Cards Index (maintained by the folks at Harvard’s Gray Herbarium) and the Australian Plant Names Index (which I know nothing about and is somewhat less relevant to the species being discussed in this thread). The plant list actually links to IPNI for “full publication details”. Just thought I’d share this invaluable resource, as it is (afaik) considered the standard for nomenclatural records within the botanical community.

Hope people find this resource useful in continuing this (or other) endeavor(s).