I don´t think you can predict the future like that.

Many people for instance look back at the 60´s with a sense of nostalgia. But when you look at what actually happened during that period, you´d have to see that it was a decade of extreme violence and social turmoil. A decade of extreme opposites´. Not a peacefull decade at all......There was an awfull lot going on: changes and people fighting the changes, trying to force the world back into it´s old patterns.

There´s a lot of stuff going on now as well. Maybe even more than back then.
Who knows where we´re heading to?

True, there is always hope.

I lost hope for the US a long time ago. I started planning my exit in early 2007 and left in early 2009. I do not ever plan to live in the states again unless one of two things happen. Either the government must return to being a REPUBLIC, not this farcical democracy, or I will return if there is another civil war.

There are many countries that US influence touches (my current country of residence) and there are many that are not affected. Not to say that you will find it better anywhere else but keep this in mind: I was born in the "Land of the Free" but never felt freedom until I left.

My two cents never seems to buy much but there it is.

Interesting...Why?

I love my country and my people, when it comes to something as drastic as civil war I will not be able to sit on the sidelines and watch. Although until the drastic changes that need to happen do I will watch from afar.

It could be soon too, most forget that the first civil war was a financial issue. The slavery thing was a afterthought.

Vovin, you may enjoy reading Tom Hodgkinson. The Freedom Manifesto in particular.

It's up to each individual to free themselves from the false notions of consumerism / materialism; if they so wish. This, I believe, is the defining and enslaving aspect of western culture.

No need to relocate. Notice the birds of the sky and the flowers of the field. Why do we have such worry in our hearts? Know thyself, the truth will set you free.

Grow your food. Love your neighbors. Raise children with care. If the harvest fails and the body dies, so be it.

This notion we call a nation is so far from the community of neighbors and true relationship it should be discarded for the fiction it is. The shared ideals in the hearts of men need no manifesto, no flag, no politics. Though all those are of no threat and no concern. You're already free. Live man!

Peace friend.

^^^I second that...the winner writes the history, and it sounds much better for the north/union to act like the whole US Civil War was over slavery, rather than a complex set of socio-economic factors. Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation as a political move (similar to Obama's declaration of support for same-sex marriage, purely a political move). The concrete effect on the day-to-day life black/African populations in USA was debatably miniscule to nearly non-existent: slavery was replaced with a nearly identical labor system, etc.

I don't see how a new civil war could be possible, considering the vast arms stockpiles possessed by the fascists (state-corporate army). It seems that the empire will have to fall on its own. Maybe the Chinese will buy it up?

I think the people of Egypt & Lybia would disagree (not to mention Czechoslovakia & Poland amoung others).

That said I don't think USA will wholly collapse.
Bear in mind that unlike many other countries the USA has a backup set of 50 little countries ready to take over following any collapse of the Federal government. The States have an independent historical and democratic tradition, seperate legislatures, judiciaries and economies. This affords opportunities for greater stability & continuity than in many other countries. The USA is much better placed, and more decentralised, than the USSR was and the collapse of central government won't be as devestating.

Also America is a big place & there's a lot of folk who just keep moving & don't really have much to do with centralised authority. I saw an estimate that thee's 3,000,000 'American Nomads' with no fixed address now - RVs, motorhomes, railway riders, etc with authority free camps forming & dissolving (eg slab city). Its a model that's worked well for thousands of years so I could see it growing as a permanent way of life for some following any collapse of Federal gov.



As I see it its just a matter of what shock to the system causes a loss in confidence of the USA gov to pay its debts - that's what'd cause any collapse. At present USA owes $9,500 billion in debt. That's $9,500,000,000,000. This is owed in US bonds, etc over half held by foreign governments, China, Japan, Brazil, etc. Hell you owe China $1.1 trillion (http://www.treasury.gov/resource-center/data-chart-center/tic/Documents/mfh.txt).

If those debts get called in the USA can't pay them, at present its only USA military power & confidence in/fear of the USA that keeps that debt outstanding (& growing). With for example, a major disruption of a key resource (eg oil in Middle East) the value of $ would likely collapse as USA debt is sold or called in. Then you can either renege on US bonds, sell off USA assets or wait for China to send in the bailiffs. All of which are likely to cause major domestic shortages, financial problems, civil unrest, protests & the inability of Federal gov to pay wages and carry on its business.




Collapse of the Euro would probably help USA in the short term as it'd strengthen the $ and see a flight of capital to the USA, as well as distracting attention from the USA economy.

While that sounds good and I was told that as well...it's just not true.

Here is the South Carolina Declaration of Causes of Secession

http://teachingamericanh.../index.asp?document=432

Key phrases from the declaration...but really you should read the whole thing. It was completely about slavery dressed up as a states rights issue.














Make no mistake what-so-ever slavery was THE main issue of the civil war. Sure it was cloaked as a states rights issue, but it almost all had to do with slavery.


Let's not forget the sins of the past. Let's keep them in the spotlight so that we may grow as a country and never ever repeat those sins again.


Peace

I think the people of Egypt & Lybia would disagree (not to mention Czechoslovakia & Poland amoung others).

That said I don't think USA will wholly collapse.[quote]

I feel like I'm being taken out of context.

Man, you quote that tiny bit from my post and it sounds like I am advocating that people "not protest, just shut up and take it".

Protesting is too tame.

What I advocate is forget asking the fascist for anything. Quit your job, pay no taxes, make your own clothes your own food your own homes, your own everything, barter for what you can't make and don't expect anything from the system. Occupy was cool for a minute......that was despite the few crybabies asking for debt forgiveness, free healthcare, free food....don't ask the bastard for anything, just walk away from western society and abandon it--no need to run, you can do it in america/europe/your own yard even.

You folks are funny.
Kinda reminds me of the kids that grow up in a small town and spend their entire youth complaining about how "this small town sucks, and I'm going to go someplace interesting."
In the end, those kids grow up, work their butts off, become disenchanted with the big city life and discover that the small town was an awesome peaceful place with honest people and a quiet lifestyle.


Ok, so people are talking about it. How many are actually doing it? I remember all sorts of people telling me the same thing in the mid 90's. "We're gonna move away from all this and live off the land." All the same "money is evil" junk I hear you folks talking about.
Nothing has changed as far as that goes, it is a fun dream, but as they say, the grass is always greener.
I do not see this is any new thing... this has more to do with your own reality and the crowd that you are currently hanging around with. This is extremely common in the 16-24year old crowd.

you talk about "Occupy Wall Street" but sadly, they have been the laughing stock of working America since their inception. They had a chance early on to make a point and it was missed. They lived too long, we got to see the beautiful child become fat, old, and lazy.

In post #7 Vovin makes his predictions for the end of the world. We've all heard this. I heard it in 1990, I heard it in 2000, I am hearing it again in 2012. There has always been someone with a sign "the end is near."



This view is held by a certain type of person... I've heard it a million times before. "Money is evil" has always been the rally cry for the looter. It has always been the cry of the man who has never earned anything themselves. These people either inherit, beg borrow or steal their fortune. If a man has *earned* his money through intelligence and hard labor he would respect money as the physical representation of his efforts.
If a person was to tell me that my hard labor and intelligence was evil, I would probably knock him out!!! I could however forgive someone who has never had this experience. If you only ever were given money, of course you would not respect it.

The suggestion that we should all go out into the hills and grow our own food and survive is interesting to me. I did this.
Looking back I will say that I never actually had any free time to do what "I" wanted in these 7 or so years that I did this. I never had the ability to pursue things that interested me. My entire existence was dominated by surviving: cutting wood for heat, keeping animals alive, keeping vegetables growing, harvesting seeds, etc.
I would spend an entire day doing things that are easily taken care of in 5minutes in your modern lifestyle.
During this 7 years, I never had the time to read a book, never had the time to sit down and watch the world go by.... I never had the ability to leave the farm, I never had the time to use a psychedelic. I was surrounded by a beautiful world that I could not enjoy because every moment was taken up by *needing* to do something. There was never a nighttime activity, I was too tired and had to get up too early in the morning for anything else.
If this is the lifestyle that you wish to pursue, I encourage you to. If nothing else it will shape your point of view about this "evil" world we apparently live in.

I now have a steady job where my mind and my strong effort is rewarded with "money" which is apparently my reward for selling my life *laugh*
Due to the fact that I am smart enough and strong enough to earn a fair wage, If I need water I do not need to carry it, I just turn a valve. If I need heat, I flip a switch. If I need light, I do not need to make a candle, I only need to turn on the switch. I have hours and hours to read books, to visit interesting places, and to do what I want with my life.
If this is: "You sell your life at your job for this imaginary thing so that you may live in a world where it rules over life." Welp ok! let it rule over my life... I have never been more free or able to do what I wanted before!
What YOU choose to spend money on, something useful to make your life easier or something frivolous is your decision. I still split wood and heat my house with it because I value money that I earned.

I hope no one has taken offense at my words, this is just my point of view and my experience.
Ringworm

You may be right, though not about the 16-24 range in my case. I still think the US is like a modern day version or "incarnation" of Rome, and it's towards the end of its imperialist era. The attitude of people I've come across in the BRIC (Brazil Russia Chindia) countries, and countries with economic systems closely tied in with BRIC, seems "onward and upward", it's very much the opposite of what I've come across in US and related countries. The US is still the most desired country for long-term immigration as well as overseas education. I simply don't like the over-regulation of everything, the political correct mindsets, the general feeling that the US is past its prime...

I'm very happy I'm living in Iceland. There's no place on this planet I'd rather be.
It's a very small nation and no matter how bad things go people here stick together and help each other out.

Scandinavian and Northern-European countries often rate very highly in 'Happiness' and 'Quality of Life' ratings.

While everyone else squabbles and wars over politics and power

On the contrary,
I feel exactly the same. Thank you, I am not alone

Some people are (all of us at some point im sure, but at any one time)blinded by advertising/fashion and all the trappings of todays societies, addictions and compulsive/security issues and compensations... But, lived intellegently, our lives have so much choice and potential. Electricity alone has the power to do so much, so we can use 'that' to leap frog to a better form of energy etc.etc, its called evolving as a people, no ?
Also, Entheogens and this site are examples of a synthesis of mediums, eletricity and sharing knowledge. No elctricity/no Nexus
Choice is amazing and powerful.

However, (I feeel) there is not a problem on the planet that 'less people on it' would not help ! The biggest answer to sustainability IMO is less people.
Even Budda is suposed to have said "there are three things you need to do" "write a book, Plant a tree and replace yourself"
Now....
We save plastic bags to be able to have more people.
We grow GM crops to feed more people
We MUST sell cars and washing machines and A/C's or the economy will not move in the 'right' direction... Doh !!!
The world is exploding with people.
The best tools we have are those we can carry with us.
I digress
Keep warm and Love yourself.

Right on brother.
Overpopulation is a worldwide problem.

The current economic problems have more to do with a "leveling" of the playing field worldwide. For better or worse, it is what it is. If I must sacrifice some extras so others have water or food that is agreeable.

Money is a tool that frees us from the limitations of barter. What if the guy who barters groceries doesn't need the service you offer? Starve?

money is a physical representation of your own ability to produce.
Those that "hate money" are typically those with no skills or production ability.

We bartered a lot back in the day and still do, but as said, it isn't always feasible.

I love how people always try to say inanimate objects are good or evil. It is a object nothing more, you are the one who decides how it is used and its effect on the world.

Worked since I was 15 in the coal mines half mile under the earth. While many of you were sitting in your cushy air conditioned class rooms I was deep under the earth at the ripe age of 15 hauling line waist deep in sulfur laden water.

Was born without money, did well without it, seems a arcane notion to me in its essence, a downright terrifying concept philosophically to reduce existence to dollars per hour. I never understood its allure. Money, it comes and goes, life, existence, that you cannot buy regardless of wealth.

As you lie on that death bed taking your last gasps of breath what will you regret more? A life not lived, or a billion not made. The machine we have created does not serve the people it serves the power.