(adapted from an online blurb I came across)

Consider the following quotations:

" Everything comes if a man will only wait."
- Benjamin Disraeli, Tancred

"Destiny is not a matter of chance, it is a matter of choice; it is not a thing to be waited for, it is a thing to be achieved."
- William Jennings Bryan, Memoirs

Disraeli and other fatalists the virtue of "patience" in "waiting" for good things to come, while proactive or ambitious people such as Bryan see fate as a matter to be taken into one's own hands. I've encountered the same split among Hindus/Buddha people describing karma (literally 'action': some people take 'karma' to mean that one's life circumstances (or those of other people) are entirely determined by their past action, and even interpret this to suggest that poor or oppressed people brought their conditions upon themselves. Others take "karma" to mean that every action that you take at a given moment is effectively a choice that leads you down a different road in life, and thus one's life circumstances are determined by one's action/karma.

The word "karma" aside, do you agree with Disraeli or with Bryan? Is there possibly a "Middle Path" between the two extremes, and if so, can you come up with a corresponding slogan for this "Middle Path"?

PS: I'm sure a similar discussion has arisen before (there was a thread specifically regarding "karma" previously) but I don't recall a discussion regarding the specific question I've asked.

Impossible to tell for sure. I believe though things go the way they should and everything doesn't happen just randomly. Slogan? ...

"Relax, it's OK"

Yes, "slogan", or just catchy phrase that's easy to remember. I think if you take Disraeli's statement, and append a disclaimer hinting that "waiting" doesn't mean sitting on your couch or otherwise bumming around, but giving yourself fully into the current moment or situation you find yourself in, and you continue to do this (focusing your energy into the current moment or situation), then good things will come to you on their own. Like magic.

You could also re-write Bryan's quote with the same effect - destiny is a thing to be achieved, not to be waited for, but it is only achieved by giving yourself fully to the current situation before you. I just can't think of a short and to the point way of expressing this.

Any other opinions on the subject?

I also think things *tend* to go the way they "should"...people tend to become surrounded by like people, and such...but six year olds also die of cancer and starvation, or lose parents to the same...

Destiny is not much more than a concept, imo. It's a phenomenon of the mind based on how you view the future, and any view of the future is inherently speculative. People who believe in destiny will believe whatever happens to them was fated from their birth, and those who do not believe in destiny will continue to see events as random.

I do think, however, that karma (action) can be mindfully applied from moment to moment to yield maximum benefit for the self and others. But again, whether the series of one's actions throughout a life lead to a "destiny" or just a random moment in time/space, that is a matter of perspective, and ultimately (imo) not of much importance. Better simply to observe what is actually observable, which is our own place within the universe *right now*, and how we react to this condition of being alive from moment to moment.

"God grant me the serenity
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference."

This is a prayer, so some people might disapprove. Of course I am not trying to say "you need to believe this". But it does seem to hold much wisdom in regards to the matter at hand.

I think that the two quotes you have put up show an example of two extremes. The one side saying that nature should be trusted. If we have faith and wait then good things shall come. But this to me is saying that we as human being are above nature then. Nature dis-includes human interference. While the other extreme to me seems to say that "depends" on human interference. For anything to work right, it must be touched by a human hand/mind.

I feel the way to go is find a middle ground as you have mentioned. And I believe that the ground for this is wisdom. As said in the prayer above "give me the wisdom to know the difference". Well then we must observe every situation and see whether to act (stay silent) or to manipulate.

Fate has always seemed like a human dream, just like God. We wish there were many things that could play into our lives. Things that make us able to throw off the burden of responsibility. Of course fate might exist. But is it really our job to ponder and worry over how it works? The best we can do is take it moment by moment. And TAKE responsibility for our actions. We must have the wisdom to know our own limits and potentials.

I think the meaning of karma is misunderstood. Of course on one side of it you have the so shall you sow shall you reap. But the way my teacher explained karma to me is that it is an energy or vibration that is laid out for us in life, and that there is not much we can do to change our karma, and that good things will happen to bad people and bad things will happen to good people these things just happen this way. As for fate I believe that we both rule our own destiny and that we have little choice over the outcome of our lives, that if we live in truth our lives will go in one direction if we seek out the will of a higher power, if we live in self or flesh our lives will unfold another way. Not to say one will not have hardships or joy, only from experience I've found that if I give up control and will over my life I find myself in exactly were I need to be, learning from and teaching the people I need in my life, I also see very specific omens in life that direct me when I ask for and look for them. When I was living in my own will I was a very sick individual.

Cool stuff. Thanks everyone for your input. Toadfreak (your true name in my book), have you ever come across the I Ching (Chinese Book of Changes)? The ancient Chinese mind saw the specific characteristics of a given moment as arising from the properties of that particular space/time coordinate, and developed a system for interpreting those characteristics based on signs in the environment, such as markings on terrapin (turtle) shells, six lines either broken or unbroken. The system seems to work, from my own experience: the hexagrams seem to mirror the nature of the universe at a given moment. There's always the question of whether they're actually "in tune" with the universe at the given moment, or whether they simply give you a kaleidoscope view of what's out there. Either way it's interesting stuff, Richard Wilhelm's translation comes recommended.