veal.

LOL I'm not sure if I ever ate the face off anything.

I had the same inner turmoil until I watched the documentary 'Earthlings'. That pretty much put me off meat for life. That is essential viewing for everyone IMO, though it is very uncomfortable to watch. It is the single best argument for vegetarianism I have seen. It settled my inner questions instantly. It can be found online here:

(WARNING: IT IS A VERY GRAPHIC DOCUMENTARY ABOUT ANIMAL-BASED INDUSTRIES. IT IS VERY UPSETTING)

http://www.youtube.com/w...arch_query%3Dearthlings.

I didnt eat any flesh for a month or so, but started getting quite ill, tired all the time etc. So now I am mainly vegetarian, though also eat a small amount of fish once or twice a week. I'm now eating less of that all the time. I haven't yet made the jump to veganism though may or may not in the future.

You need protein is the key. And the savouriness of meat. For me tofu, pulses (beans, peas, lentils etc.) and cheese and eggs really help fill a meat-shaped gap. You can't just stop eating it without properly replacing it.

But you may just decide to eat meat. In that case I would suggest you try and avoid very cheap meat, as it has often been tortured just to be killed for you to eat. IMO torture tastes baaaaad. Free-range is always best, if possible.

You'll work it out for yourself, worry not.

I keep tossing a turning over this myself. I'm practically a vegetarian (90% with small amounts of cheese, yogurt, fish, and eggs on occasion), and I consume and create lots of vegan options cashew/nut "cheeses," and almond milk, etc.

I love certain "raw" foods and I think adopting dietary restrictions leads to new bouts of creativity that really enhance your eating and cooking (or creating) of foods.

But I can't truthfully say eating meat is the problem. It's just being completely addicted to it and eating it for every dish in huge quantities that is the problem. I've lived by the sea all my life and was a Sailor when I was young. How can I reconcile to not eat a little fish here and there? We're destroying that resource, but it's so vital I can't simply forget it's existence.

Ensure you have a solid basic diet consisting almost entirely of veggies, nuts, seeds, fruits, etc. whatever is in season and then supplement it with whatever you like ensuring it's as sustainable as possible.

As a wise lady once told me "you care and that's counts more than you give yourself credit—so many people don't think about their impact at all"

^Torture tastes AWFUL

I think catching a fish from the ocean that has lived a natural life, is different from torturing an animal in captivity for life just to eat it.

I may just be telling myself that to excuse my occasional fish-eating though.

it can take a while to figure out what to eat that makes you feel full and energetic when you switch to this sort of a diet. Look into gourmet vegan recipes..,any of them are heavier/denser foods which is what many people seem to crave when they get off meats or grains or cooked foods etc..many people just binge on nuts but that never feels to great in my stomache.

Thanks everyone. Much more replies than on the shroomery!

So i guess my dilema is why kill veggies and not meat? why must we consume things just to live?

Guess that's just the way it is,huh.

Guess it comes down to how much you consume and what you can get away with without sacraficing health. But i also feel its important to eat for the soul and not just the taste buds/health of the body. Like when all your friends gather around and eat pizza or meat and your on a diet, it hurts just as much to not eat almost as eating. Like added stress.

I will watch that movie if you promise its not branwashing lol and i know that all farms arent raised like that, grassfed range free ect. (well never been to any, so i guess i'll just have to belive word of mouth/internet)
that shit is expensive too though, and hard to always eat on a budget.

seems like i'm always at the store, or thinking about eating/health. Right and wrong.

I miss smoking pot and the escape they brought, but then again a lot of other problens that i hated.. seems like i can never win. or be at peace and just be
:/

i feel like a shroom trip(been a couple months) but i feedl i may just relapse with marijuana and the health food, and just get more confused. idk.. i miss the peace and contentment that the trips bring, and just the happiness and hope they give life, they make me appreciate where im at. idk... MAN confusion sucks.

Lol it's not brainwashing particularly (not any more than any other documantary). It's won many awards. It's got an argument, but then so do many documentaries. It's generally hidden camera footage that kind of speaks for itself to be honest.

And yes, the farms and other places they show MAY be in the minority. But theres no real way of knowing. If you are in America I have heard from a reliable source (one of my old university professors) that the pork industry in particular is pretty dire in some places (naming no names) compared to others. I'd rather not take the chance personally.

IMHO if there are alternatives, we can stop killing animals for meat, at least to the monstrous extent we do now. We certainly eat FAR too much in the West, whatever way you look at it (apologies if you're not in the West.) I think this is out of conditioned habit more than anything else. Lotta dollar in meat!

And other things you have said ring true. Next time you are panicking about food try and remember the old Buddhist saying, "Eat to live, don't live to eat."

Lastly, I'm pretty sure plants don't mind being eaten. One of their main processes of dissemination in the wild is animals eating and excreting them out. They NEED to be eaten.

Ok i'll check it out, what's some more bad emotions gonna hurt lol

So do you believe the usda when they say farms are organic or grassfed, think they would lie or the seller would be able to trick them and just say its organic when its not?

Do you think organic is really that much healthier?

I like that buddhist quote. I just thought you gotta eat the right foods to have a sharp
mind/happiness.

So i guess it just comes down to if the animals suffer or not, so if they are killed with a single shot to the head and range free its ok?

So why is it not ok to eat humans as long as they don't suffer? Just the way it is or what?

Thanks jdubs

Wow! What an absolute mindfirld of philosophical questions!

I guess I can only give you personal thoughts on your questions so hear goes...

Free-range and organic are different things. One often concerns animals, the other vegetables and fruit.

If an animal product says its free-range, I tend to believe them. It's the other stuff you want to steer clear from, if possible. The trouble is most fast-food places and resteraunts will often by the cheapest meat to maximise profit. Getting meat from these places, unless they say otherwise, pretty much guarantees the animal welfare is going to pretty low.

Free-range suggests that the animal has lived a full, semi-natural life, as opposed to spending it's life in a cage or worse. Non-free-range practices are eloborated on in the documentary, and can explain better than I can with words.

As far as organic goes, I don't really subscribe to that to be honest. Firstly. I can't afford to buy organic fruit and vegetables. Also, I am unsure of what impact eating them really makes health wise or otherwise.

Now, to eating humans... something inside me just instinctivelly says this is wrong. But then so does eating animals. Even fish I eat with a certain amount of guilt.

Why are humans taboo to eat? Good question, of which I cant answer. It's a similar question of why drinking human breastmilk is taboo, but drinking cow or goat-milk is fine. A staunch pork and beef-eater may be better to ask regarding the question of cannibalism...

Thanks Jdubs you certainly made my day.

so how do you know whether to follow the voice in your head/your heart or morals and rules/laws of society?

And for the actions that just arent made clear in the law, religion, society or just your experience? Just keep doing it until something bad happens, or stop until you know its right? and can continue?

I mean cause even asking others is just their opinion, just what's right for the whole or your self, selfish vs. selfless?

thanks for the help man hope your still on here.

I always go for the 'voice in my head and heart'. In other words, my own morality and intuition. These we all have, though some choose to ignore.

There are many rules and laws of society that are immoral, illogical and just plain dumb. The criminalisation of certain plant life springs immediately to mind. The celebration of greed and wasteful consumption/ celebrity-worship etc. There are many other rules/traditions/morals that are highly questionable in Western 'society' (at least in the UK).

Why would I live my life according to a society that accepts and celebrates such irrational, money driven, sexist, racist nonsense? Not a society I wish to embrace, on the whole.

This thread is not long enough to go into all the problems of society though, and detracts from the point

I'll follow the countries laws (though I do sometimes find plants and pick them and eat them and go WOW from time to time, if you know what I mean. Sometimes I brew tea that has a very unusual effect etc etc.) but otherwise I wont let it's fashions and 'norms' dictate my own personal choices. Though, I do occasionally indulge in a PS3 session and enjoy a Heineken from time to time (other beers are available )

Generally though, the head and the heart. It's all any of us really have. The heart mainly, for questions of morality.

Just 'cos everyone else is eating something, doesn't mean you have to. Unless you do have to. But most people aren't starving.

word man. Thanks again. Take care and i wish you the best.

I'd tend to agree with Jdubs on the organic issue. But that doesn't mean consuming produce that has been treated with chemicals (pesticides, synthetic fertilizers, etc.) is necessarily good for you. It's just that it's not 100% understood how much the threshold is before harm.

It's sort of like how some people are absolutely fine using impure Naptha to extract DMT while others such as myself swear by Food Grade d-limo.

I think the real impetus to consume organic is that it illustrates your desire as a consumer to not support companies who haphazardly use chemicals on produce for commercial gain. But sometimes a non-organic plant is just inherently more organic than others—for example with hemp you don't really need to worry about it being organic.

I don't think the USDA lies per se; however, the organic vs. non-organic issues is a whole lot more complex than their certification system suggests. The most important thing to me is to support food which as local as possible first and foremost. Sometimes you've got to cheat to eat, but its the thought that counts. Thought leads you down all kinds of avenues.

If we as a society retake control of our food, we will find answers to our so many social issues. The key to doing that is bring back local production for local consumption. There's a place for trade, but for so many things like beer, vegtables, etc it just makes no sense to import thousands of miles except for the profit margins of corporate monsters.

I've been doing a lot of reading into eco-cities to be honest I dream we one day live in dense skyscraper utopias with vegtables grown in skyscraper greenhouses and bears walking in our "front yard" right under our noses, but still separated enough to avoid conflict.

Semantics aside—the morals of society are all wacked out so I stick to my own which generally revolve around respect for myself, others, and the world around me. This is a very personal choice and it can be very difficult to reconcile with regular life especially when so many around you claim to be so righteous.

I often question my ability to look at things objectively enough to determine right and wrong, but ultimately as jdubs says "why would I live my life according to a society that accepts and celebrates such irrational, money driver, sexist, racist non-sense"

I have no idea why it makes sense, but to me a lot comes down to simple observation. It started 8 years ago when I was a teenager. I never touched a drug until I was 19. I didn't even enjoy alcohol. Everything was available to me, but I just felt content without chemical therapy. Yet ever since I was 15 I couldn't forgive the government for all the pain and suffering they caused over a futile war on drugs which assaults the very fabric of reason. This has really influenced my skepticism.

The reality is words mean a lot and they also mean little. My primary advice is to keep your mind and heart open. Believe everything, doubt always. Embrace that you're only a small part of everything, but yet the central organism to all life.

Oh and Fuck the police .. except the good ones, there's a place for violence. It's all part of one HUGE picture.

there are certain things that IMO are far far more important to buy organic than others..tomatoes and potatoes would be 2 of those. Certain fruits/veggies/crops are sprayed, GMO'd etc much more than others..for at least those ones I would say it does make a lot of sense to only eat organic. Do you really want to take that kind of chance with your health?

Usually fruits with a thicker peel are less prone to being filled wtih pesticides on the inside than ones with a really thin skin, like a tomatoe(which are sprayed like crazy).

I also have heard that organic fruits and veggies contain more vitamines than conventional..I read that in some study a few years back in a health magazine or something.

I never eat GMO foods though because I really dont think it is fully undertood what kind of effect that can have in the long term on us..eating foods that have had DNA sliced up and altered..I wont take that risk. Once you have spent time being sick you start to take all of this a lot more seriously. I dont do this because I felt bad for animals or anything or for it being trendy(which it is in a shallow sort of way I find).

Word thanks gobblintorch i agree. Do local farms take food stamps?

and Jamie how do you tell if foods are GMO? basically all non organic could be?..or..

yup. I dont think things have to labled GMO..

95% of what I buy is organic so I dont really have to put effort into checking out if something is non GMO.

I think it just makes sense though that pesticide free is a better choice, other than the pices..do you really feel like eating pesticides? I mean really, it is just common sense. Pesticides work as pesticides for a reason. I sure as hell dont feel like eating that crap.

The main problem with organic that bothers me is that the standards for "organic" are not always so clear.

I agree. Hunting and fishing are totally different than factory farming animals.

I try to be vegetarian and do a pretty good job, but I do eat fish on occasion and on even rarer occasions I may have some turkey.

I have found a happy medium were I try to reduce the harm caused by me.
There are so many issues in the world today that if I tried to be perfect in every way I would simply go insane.

Past threads:
https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=32206
https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=31972
https://www.dmt-nexus.me...aspx?g=posts&t=28659

True. A wise man once said you me you have to choose your 'battles' carefully. You're no good to anyone insane