Though this is the seemingly "rational" answer, it's actually a logical fallacy. It's an appeal to consequences fallacy.

Yeah thats interesting, Gibran.. I've been pondering about death and conscious quite a lot lately
I feel that if consciousness is the source of our physical life, then its unlikely that our consciousness will ever be destroyed (at least in the current form of separation that we are experiencing now), however, whether or not we retain our separation is another interesting question. I myself and I'm sure many others here at the nexus, have experienced the unmistakeable sensation of "oneness" where one feels no separation from the cosmos/universe/higher consciousness/god.. this makes me wonder whether when we die, we retain our individuality as a unique soul, or whether we just merge with the universal consciousness

I really have no idea which of the two.. if any.. and sorry to the athiests here..venturing into what many may think is nutcase territory here..but it has certainly gotten me thinking about the notion of one being weighed after death for their good and bad deeds so to say, and whether maybe if one has done a lot of good and earnt it, they may retain the privelege of separated consciousness or something and continue their journey as a soul, and if not, they lose their separation as their own soul and just become part of the universal consciousness... yeah who knows

anyways... just some thoughts, would be interested to get anyone else's opinions on that

Wow, there are some wonderful ideas being expressed in this thread. Nice. Sure, a word like SOUL is subjective and it's specificity in proper definition is as unique as the individual contemplating it's reality, relative to their own existence.



I like your choice of the word, "real". Amongst many other definitions of the soul, what I believe may be the closest to the truth (for myself), is that the soul is the most REAL part of the human condition. By this, I suggest that there exists a seeming permanency to this aspect of the human organism, as it goes wherever you go (who are you), in juxtaposition to the transience of the material paradigm and the human ego, with all of it's changing rhythms, caused by revolving within the time-space-continuum.



Agreed! Soul means something slightly different to each of us, as do the terms: body, mind, self and other. Is it fair to say that the soul is that aspect of oneself which is both, pre-existent and hopefully post-existent, when the physical frame expires? That dimension or realm of awareness which is individual and paradoxically, fully united with something more universal. An ethereal counterpoint to our earthly selves This twin energy feels far more spiritual, than just the ego and the dynamics of the personal drama we act out in our daily lives.

And so, if the soul is an individual energy pattern and more highly spiritual aspect of self, is my soul separate from your soul and the souls of countless beings throughout the multiverse? What about soul communion with each other? This implies a definitive veil of distinction, for sure. Fascinating stuff.



Yes, any of us who have had NDE and/or OBE (like astral projection), have directly experienced being that wide-band essence of self which does not have it's boundaries limited to the material plane, as does the isolated ego or the individual's rational capacity for cognitive reasoning. But is the soul just the astral body? Is it the limited by the causal body (the sphere of archetypal thought-forms and pure ideas)?

Is the soul a limited condition or is it an open-ended possibility, spiraling into eternity, like galactic force that co-exists within the mind of the human self? In other words, does the soul have any ceiling? Is there a limit to it's nature... or does it's symbiosis with the universal force of being (or as brother-friend Hyperspace Fool likes to insightfully call, the "Omniversal" state), instill within it a dimension-jumping mechanism , if you will?



I too, have found remarkable parallels within the Hindu cosmology, although my path is not limited to just this cultural tradition, as all religions are really saying the same things. Plus, I find spiritual truth in all of them. But the Indian Vedantic vantage point is quite intricate and full of mind-bending degrees of insight. These teachings are recorded both orally and written down, open to the public and also, much is hidden from the layperson.

Still, these verses do in fact map-out the internal existential paradigm of humanity, from a purely metaphysical stance. It was psychedelics that drew me to Eastern thought. So much so, that until I accessed the Yogic cosmology, much of what I had experienced under the rushing force of LSD and mushrooms, had been new and totally foreign territory.

Yes, Atman is an incredibly good way to label the soul of any one of humankind. It implies the awakening of the Sacred, via the human experience. Obviously, Atman would also be every particle and wave composing the multiple universes, folded upon themselves, one layer upon another layer. Endless levels of subtle awareness and steps of ascending consciousness. So to speak & but of course. This is why in Vedanta, the word Atman has a dual meaning. There is a subtle distinction between two forms of this frequency in consciousness, Jivatman and Paramatman.

Jivatman is the individuated soul, which interconnects to the unmoving expanse of the over-soul, Paramatman. When a seeker finds his/her truest awareness as Jivatman, it opens a door to the realization of the Paramatman. Paramatman is essentially a manifestation and emanation from the unbound, unmanifested expanse of the Absolute state, Brahman. A returning of the Paramatman, via the awakening of the Jivatman, whereby it finds it's unity with eternal God, as Brahman.

Body-Ego-Self-Soul-Jivatman-Paramatman-Brahman are all One (The Omniself).



No truer words were ever spoken, my friend. One of the things that struck me with a mind-altering, profound impact, was when my dear grandmother died in 1973. I was with her when she passed... and I watched her life force slip away from us. Interestingly enough, the look of deep peace and the hint of a beatific smile, still lingers within my memory's core. At her wake, I stood looking at her prone body, artificially laid out in the 20th century fashion. I recall vividly, that when I put my hand on her forehead, it was cold and lifeless.

I thought to myself, "Gramma is not in that body anymore. Her life force is somewhere else. But where exactly did she go? I can't be in Heaven yet, since I can sense her right here beside me."

I felt her presence very, very strongly... and she was absolutely radiant in vibration. I could palpably FEEL her wonderful, loving energy all around me. Yes, she was still very much alive and touching that part of myself that was also, not limited by relative material conditions. She clearly communicated to me, telepathically, that life was more than what we see with our mortal eyes, that she was free of the pain and very happy to be embracing her Creator. In fact, she was euphoric and wanted me to tell mother and elder brother not to cry anymore tears of grief, but be glad that she was in such a wonderful state of spiritual being.



Well said, as usual. We exist within soul. Nice. So, the soul decidedly not like the physical body, the brain-generated cognitive function of mind (the ego) but that silent witness to all that passes before our field of conscious-awareness. It defies description, yet raises many deep questions. Perhaps it is that part of us, which is wholly one with ALL that is?

Ultimately, I suspect that the soul is a bridge of sorts, which facilitates an interconnection to the Omniself. The missing link between the relative, organic perception of humankind and the absolute expanse of the Cosmic Mind.

Or maybe soul is a singular spark of the Divine Radiance, channeled into each of us? A personal interconnection to the mystical and mysterious quintessence of the Void. Or maybe a vacuum which pulls us through myriad dimensional paradigms, without diluting it's central fulcrum of pure conscious-awareness? I believe that it is the very internal witness and the inner pilot of the temporary sentient person's journey through life and far, far beyond.

An opening flower of potential, blooming exponentially??? Which is on IMO, vibrates on the high end of the perceptual spectrum, forever fused internally to what is indivisible and unbound. Yet, the soul is at once, individuated God-consciousness compressed into the isolated self... and a link to the Infinite plane (which expands beyond our grasp, even as we reach for it).

It certainly provokes much thought and challenges us to understand that we are something other than the circumstances of our incarnation, we are a spark of the Eternal.

Gosh, what a loooooong reply I wrote. Tis a long wind which bloweth comic dust, eh?

bah institutionalised religions I feel are fully tainting people's idea of the soul... many people view the soul as a completely illogical concept just because they've only ever heard it in religious context.

Its weird to me how so many people I know think its so silly and illogical to believe that consciousness can survive death. my question to them is is how can you know with such certainty and logic that consciousness is temporary when you don't even really understand how it got there in the first place.

and whats more illogical? consciousness being an indestructible and fundamental energy of the universe that isn't destroyed but rather transformed like any other form of energy? OR consciousness being a temporary force created by a bunch of chemicals all intrinsically wired together(without any intent or intelligence at all behind the phenomena of course) in the perfect combination which also just happen to form an absolutely jaw droppingly beautiful creature(like a jaguar for example), and then destroy it after they break down at death?

Everything about this planet, the universe, and the life that it nurtures, absolutely reeks of intent to me.. and I reckon consciousness is quite necessary for that intent to exist

sorry for my ramble guys.. i realise that is venturing away from the notion of soul a little

Awesome post Rising Spirit

What I wonderfully candid post to wake up to Rising Spirit, thanks.

Thank you for the kindness, bricklaya and DiaMondTongue. I never really know if my words are inspiring or annoying. I do go on looooooonger than most folks. I've contemplated asking The Traveler to change my user name to Long Wind, on a number of occasions. Rising Spirit is what my best friend named me back in 1980, while tripping our brains out on LSD-25. I've since then, gotten quite gabby.

I thought I'd add a follow-up to the short story I posted above, since I've been contemplating this topic in considerable depth. And I will be uncharacteristically brief, so no risk of optic strain, for those who choose to wade through it. Hehehe...

One of the things which so strikes my intellect about the idea of the human soul is THIS, it seems that soul is an intermediary & individual degree of universal awareness. In other words, it hold some recognizably individuated traits, while it simultaneously, bridges the seeming gap between the ordinary or "normal" mortal consciousness and that of unified Cosmic consciousness.

Furthermore, sometimes I feel that it is more a corridor or hallway, than an actual fixed point of awareness, wholly bound to a predetermined, fixed placement within the scheme of things. Not necessarily in a linear sense, in fact, I see it more as a series of concentric rings, so to speak. One degree of consciousness-awareness-being, existing within another degree of consciousness-awareness-being. Each hypothetical ring seems to interconnect to the more expanded vistas of perception, as well as the less expanded vistas of perception (endlessly bubbling, pulsing and multiplying itself exponentially, add infinitum).

They all certainly do touch levels, within our mind's journey of expansion, as it appears that our role is as witness to the fulcrum of perceptual data they transmit (as realities unto themselves). There sure seems to be an on-going urge for the human ego to touch the level of soul, even as there is a need in the human organism to want to love and be loved. Yet, the closer on gets to the more spiritual core of consciousness-awareness-being, the more our perception takes-in of the WHOLE interconnectedness of these multiples of planes and levels, as One reality.

Again, the concentric rings, which like with so many of our psychedelic visions with magnificent spirals and as such wonders... looks as if this current tunnels inot itself for an infinity and at the very same point outside of the time-space-continumm, expands outwardly for an equal span of eternity. This is a mystical phenomenon and I am still trying to find ways to understand it's significance, as it relates to mind, self and God.

This keys into a wildly lucid dream I had just last night. I dreamed that I was trying to awaken to what I thought was my true self. But seriously, Who am I? You see, my consciousness was in this nebulous space and I had this reoccurring and urgent thought that I simply must awaken! This seems an irony, as I often spend my internal mental focus on getting to JUST such a formless, expansive level of mind.

So, does this lead us to wonder if we are meant to reverse the flow of these concentric dream vistas? Back to that state before the beginning? Before the emergence of quantum fluctuations and the resulting universe at at large (and simultaneously, ever so microscopically small)? You know... are we destined to awaken and so, REMEMBER our "real self", withdrawn from our changing fixations within this wonderful material dance of cosmic forces?

When I did return to my physical daydream, I was struck by the profundity of this lucid dream. I then recalled this very thread and the discussion on what the soul is, or is not. I dawned on me that the Indian Vedantic notion of Brahman dreaming itself as Paramatman, dreaming itself as Jivatman, dreaming it was incarnated physically as the self of the ego... is assuredly a two way street!

The ego-self certainly wishes to awaken to it's more celestial state as Jivatman, which may actually desire to merge and expand still further... into the plane of the Paramatman. And does not logic dictate that the Paramatman might appear to float as a intermediary point, bonded to BOTH the manifestation of Jivatman (or individual soul force) and the unmanifested, indivisible level and no-thingness of the unborn Brahman? Or perhaps, rather, towards THAT which exists without boundary or definition, deep within the Unified Field of The Clear Light of the Void?

gibran2 also mentioned something profound about dreaming, within another thread, in regards to perception of reality and self. It related to his conclusion about this being a dream within a dream, post one of his Salvia Divinorum journeys. I too, have had this haunting sensation on numerous occasions, when returning from a voyage within the churning/looping rush of the Salvinorin Seas.

I'll add one more thought. I agree with both John C. Lilly and gibran2, there is not an ultimate reality. Unless by "ultimate" we imply interconnectedness or complete UNITY. It sure seems like a transcendental, spiral stairway, leading on endlessly, forevermore. Each paradigm is superseded by the next one beyond that one. Likewise, they can't really be a bottom to this stairway, eh? Deeper and still deeper into lower levels of uber materiality/density and such. Perhaps the WHOLE of all of this is the realm of the Godhead? It's certainly food for thought!

"Row, row, row your boat, gently down the stream. Merrily, merrily, merrily, merrily... life is but a dream."

Hey, I thought this was supposed to be a brief reply? What's up with that???

BTW, this is a Hindu painting of Brahma dreaming the Omniverse into existential being, immediately after Brahma's emergence out of the incomprehensible Void of Brahman.